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Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]
- Thread starter Artanisix
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"I trolled..."
"I talked shit..."
"I raged at..."
etc.
"... JUST ONCE!"
Yeah, sure. As mentioned, it's based on a pattern, not just one instance. Before someone posts (again) the guy that played one game and reported himself to get muted: that's a 1:1 ratio between games played and reports. ANYONE would be muted if they had such a pattern. It's a good thing Valve is giving a minimum games played before you can be muted to prevent that (won't prevent people making new accounts and chat abusing newer players, though). Having a stack of people all report you in 1 game is (reportedly) the same as 1 person reporting you in 1 game. So that's no justification of "... just once."
I've yet to be muted and I'm not the nicest person to play with. /jinx
last edit: So while the system isn't perfect, and people can just be assholes and report you regardless if you're actually problematic (which was somewhat taken care of by limiting report usage), it's VERY VERY slim that you'll be the victim of multiple people wasting their reports on you without some reason.
Basically. Nearly every post in here complaining about the mute system has made me reassured that it is working properly.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
First you said pattern now its ratio.
I've not been banned. Would be surprised to as well as I tend not to even write anything other than glhf and gg.
I've not been banned. Would be surprised to as well as I tend not to even write anything other than glhf and gg.
rhophiehalul78
Member
- may be seen as KS
- there are better item alternative with more utility
- magic damage falls off late game with BKB's, Cloaks, Pipes, etc
Yeah, there have been games where I snapped and talked some shit. Probably stuff that is report worthy, but I have never been muted. Valve already said that it is never just one game and I doubt that snapping every once in a while will get you muted.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
What would you buy instead just for utility wise?
Late game complaint I think is largely irrelevant personally.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Same. There was one game where I absolutely flipped out at this Weaver who took him as a third carry with two seconds to go and then half an hour later he was predictably doing nothing because he got no farm and they were stomping us and I was fucking pissed. But I didn't get muted, probably because it was like the only time I've ever actually yelled at someone that much in a game.
I get angry occasionally. But not very often. And I've got no bans so far.
I guess sitting here its hard for me not sound self incriminating after the first voice ban. The second one which got me all worked up. Maybe its best just not to talk and sit in jungle as NP with dagon lol.
On NP? It's decent early game but falls off later and its just really fun for grabbing the kill on people who are low. Prophet gets a lot farm and its generally better to get better utility items(sheep stick), or the shadow blade to sustain farm and pushing.
That's because nobody can take you seriously.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
But if you're a ganking NP, you can burst down whomever you come in for.
Schweinehund
Member
There was some dude on reddit that did some tests with his alt and I think it was 2 games or something absurd before he was muted.
It's a rough game. People need to be more thick-skinned instead of reporting other players as soon as they read/hear something they don't like. Some people won't even take the time to learn the most basic of skills to be proficient, but are shocked when they get shit on. I've actually grown to like the unforgiving community, even when I play poorly (most of the time, lol).
And then what? You kill 1 person and you can't do anything.
Schweinehund
Member
http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comme..._coop_bot_match_with_2_of_his_own_new/cashrrv
Here's the post with his findings.
Here's the post with his findings.
Right, so he played 2 games (it was 1 IIRC, and as mentioned in my other post) and reported himself each game. So in every game he's played he was reported. ANYONE would be muted if they were reported in every game they played.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
What people don't understand is that literally no one's lives are improved by just ragging on someone who's doing shitty.
Saying "STOP FUCKING FEEDING!" doesn't help them improve. It just makes them ashamed/annoyed and takes time for you to type or say..and likely means you're in a shittier mood as a result.
If instead you said "Hey man, you should probably keep a healthy distance from the opposing team in your lane right now because they are abusing the fact that you don't have an escape and they have two disables"...they might actually be willing to listen and learn from the whole experience.
Just be coaching to people as a first line of defense, and if they act like dicks as a result of your constructive criticism, mute them and move on.
Getting muted because you apparently cared enough to shit on someone for sucking but didn't care enough to actually fix the problem just means you're as guilty as they are for being shitty. They're just shitty players vs. you're being a shitty member of the community.
...again, if people are being dicks themselves, all you can do is mute/report and move on.
True but only to a certain degree. You should be ganking regardless, but with more play and proper timing you shouldn't need to depend on the burst of a dagon. Getting a dagon means commiting to it. Think of getting utility items on NP as you getting exponentially better over the game, but a dagon NP is a steady rise that will eventually stagnate.
Hex gives you more damage and mana regen, it's also an item that never loses it's power. Dagon is a fun item to build but as the game goes on it loses it's effectiveness. Shadowblade allows you to splitpush better, can be uses to initate, and you can also use the extra damage to do that extra damage to get a kill.
One burst of damage over a 3.5 second disable (allows your team to burst down the hero) or a fantastic all in one split push, escape, and repositioning item that helps NP deal more physical damage, which is his primary source of sustained teamfight presence.
shira
Member
EG.china vs Rattlestar game 3 of zzz winner goes home
If there is another alchemist I'm gonna rage, because I know all the games tomorrow are going to alchemist 6-slot farmfests.
edit: Yes!!!!
When this goes community should there be a separate dota qq thread?
Oh man just played a game: tinker demands mid buys only boots - says first time tinker, just downloaded a guide - rushing travel boots. Feeds firstblood at the horn. Qquits.
"well played"
"well played"
"well played"
If there is another alchemist I'm gonna rage, because I know all the games tomorrow are going to alchemist 6-slot farmfests.
edit: Yes!!!!
When this goes community should there be a separate dota qq thread?
Oh man just played a game: tinker demands mid buys only boots - says first time tinker, just downloaded a guide - rushing travel boots. Feeds firstblood at the horn. Qquits.
"well played"
"well played"
"well played"
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I'm not arguing against the merits of Sheep Stick or Shadowblade.
But I don't understand how something that almost guarantees a successful gank in the early/mid game can be seen as trolly.
But I don't understand how something that almost guarantees a successful gank in the early/mid game can be seen as trolly.
In High/Very high level games its trolly, Most people at those levels can play NP to his full ability and shouldn't need to the dagon to ensure the gank. A well place ULT/TP should generally always get you the kill.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
Dagon on someone who can carry is definitely a wasted slot more often than not.
A single 900 damage nuke + stats is neat and all, but when you're slotted with some damage items with any kind of crit, that's basically just an auto-attack or two for the same output.
Getting a sheep-stick + damage items = more utility and higher damage output overall.
Some people will report even if it is constructive criticism.
I know Valve is trying to implement better/more training materials, but the community has always been critical or even caustic at times. It sure as hell motivates me to play better. This isn't a hand holding, super happy fun time experience. This is brutal, gritty, pure 5v5 PvP. Other games are different in that if you play poorly, it really only negatively impacts your progression. When someone constantly feeds or rage quits, it often wastes an hour of my time.
SteveWinwood
Member
This is my problem with his results. Did he do it with different accounts with different amounts of wins and accommodations? Nope he did it once with one account. He has a 100% report rate.
The system can obviously be improved, but it's not complete trash and he didn't even bother to try and understand it, he just wanted to prove some point.
Edit: lol brutal and gritty
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I give constructive criticism every day multiple times a day and to my knowledge have not been reported for it. Hell, I make insane dick jokes and dumb conversation in all-chat when the game is paused to keep the environment light and haven't been reported for that either.
I'm not even an amazing player, but at the very least I know when someone is making some major mistakes in their play (over-aggressive and feeding, bad map awareness, weird item choices, etc etc).
As long as your constructive criticism doesn't translate to "You're being an idiot, do this instead you moron!" then you should be fine.
I take playing very seriously, and get equally frustrated with people that are messing things up...but at the end of the day it's a game. Even if you "wasted" an hour of your life, hopefully you either worked on your last hitting, practiced on attempting to rally from a snowballing enemy team, helped coach others to get better for future games, improved on your juking, etc etc.
No games are a waste even when you lose. The great thing about this game is that there is always something you can be improving.
Getting the "W" is obviously what you want, but getting the "L" doesn't mean you wasted that time.
Some people will report for any reason they want to. That's why you have a limited number of reports, and you're rewarded for reporting legitimately by having reports returned when action is taken. This seems to fall under the VERY unlikely circumstance that you'll get multiple reports for being nice/helpful and then muted.
Gully State
Member
Some people will report to try and break the system. Those guys are still in the minority. I wonder how much of the reporting system's failings at this point are simply due to a vocal minority just actively trying to break the system for the sake of breaking the system. Whatever the case, the system, while imperfect and definitely in need of tweaks(which Valve is currently doing) is still a significant step in the right direction.
Not a good excuse for verbal abuse. There's a difference between destructive and constructive criticism.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Ahahaha that Mirana arrow
I can respect that. I still think that some trash talking isn't really all that bad. I'm not advocating any extremely ignorant/violent/illegal chat abuse, but I don't think someone saying "Wow Drow, you are shit" really necessitates a chat ban.
I would have never learned as much as I know about the game now if it wasn't for some insanely destructive criticism. When I played (failed) my first few games of Dota2, my teammates freaked out, so I started watching tutorials, tournaments, reading about all aspects of the game and playing draft/random (instead of only using the same 1 or 2 characters). Granted I'm still not good by any stretch of imagination, but I've had several amazing games. I just think that some trash talking has a place in this game.
I think the amount of people that are motivated by trash talking is much smaller than the amount of people turned off by it. I've seen this in other games, where a toxic community constricts and impedes its growth to the detriment of its own development. As a community, we want to get more people playing and enjoying the game.
I have yet to meet someone that's turned off a community because the members are too nice but I have a lot of friends who won't play games because of the inverse. I'm happy Valve is taking steps to cut down on the shit talking in the game and I hope they keep trying different methods to refine their system. In the end, we'll all benefit from a friendly, more helpful player base and I think fighting against it is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Gully State
Member
"Drow you are shit" is pretty vile as it is..
I commend you on your attitude towards toxic behavior, but you are truly mistaken if you think that you got better because some internet asshole called you shit. You got better because you took the time to learn how to play the game properly through VODs, guides, practice, experience, tutorials and all other manners of tools available. If anything Valve's data has shown that the toxic attitudes and communication towards other people if anything has done more to keep more people from playing the game rather than actually serving as a motivator for players to improve their game. Anecdotally, what I see most in the community is a hypersensitivity that's basically due to toxic attitudes. Believe it or not, but most individuals actually are motivated to get better through their play alone.
As for trash talking, my personal thought on it is that it's great when it's entertaining but 99% of people can't trash talk worth shit and are better off not doing it in general.
The Teachinator
Banned
Im 32 and dont ever talk trash and rarely communicate. I was muted for 48 hours. Kind of terrible and really turned me off to the community.
Schweinehund
Member
age may be a contributing factor. 32 year olds are pretty lame and probably bad at dota.
I agree. If you play super retarded and feed the first 5 kills, you cant expect to not get shit on. Unless people are overly rude/obnoxious or are racist i dont mind. But the minute the
nigger/kaffir/fucked your
shira
Member
Dat Alienware sponorship.
Can't say I've found anything really enjoyable on iOS; but I find watching replays (youtube) or streams (twitch) works well for the itch
.Though it's not a moba, the only game I can think of that matches Dota's level of meta and strategy is Magic. The competitive sealed deck multiplayer in Magic 2014 is p'good.
Fuck everyone with a smurf account. I start a nice low level team and we get paired with people who all have clan tags, and got creamed. Sure our team played badly, but we were legitimately low level. No one who plays Timbersaw that well has only five wins. I might as well stick to play honest bots. They might cheat, but they're not very smart.
Tales of unmuted fools. Part 1:
Made to offlane as Sand King. I don't die. I stack ancients.Save the tower. Even get a double kill mid. On the other side of the map Naix, Witch Doctor and Lich can't control a weaver.
We're crushing early but the Alch eventually races ahead.
I miss one very clumsy stun on the Alch and this Naix goes in to a tirade giving me abuse for a full 20 minutes. "I've cost him the game". "Can't make a simple stun". "Never offlane SK again." Forgetting the fact I was told to offlane there. Plus he solo dies to a weaver at his own tower but that's his support's fault for not being there.
Tried to friend me afterwards to no doubt continue the abuse. I rarely use such language but this guy was an arsehole of the highest order. Can't wait for the mutes to role back in.
Made to offlane as Sand King. I don't die. I stack ancients.Save the tower. Even get a double kill mid. On the other side of the map Naix, Witch Doctor and Lich can't control a weaver.
We're crushing early but the Alch eventually races ahead.
I miss one very clumsy stun on the Alch and this Naix goes in to a tirade giving me abuse for a full 20 minutes. "I've cost him the game". "Can't make a simple stun". "Never offlane SK again." Forgetting the fact I was told to offlane there. Plus he solo dies to a weaver at his own tower but that's his support's fault for not being there.
Tried to friend me afterwards to no doubt continue the abuse. I rarely use such language but this guy was an arsehole of the highest order. Can't wait for the mutes to role back in.
Yea, you bring up a good point about expanding the community. In regards to "too nice", occasionally you get the dudebros with a mic trying to "mentor" the team ("yea I play with Na'Vi all the time") by continuously barking orders that end up failing. "Ok guys teamfight now, Drow get in here!", followed by a complete wipe.
See, it's a matter of opinion. I don't think that quote is "vile" at all. Mildly offensive at best (or worst?).
Valve isn't going to say that the system isn't working (although I agree, it likely is working). I just don't want the game to end up that you get a chat ban for calling someone out on a bad play. Like I said earlier, people need to be more thick-skinned. By contrast, this chat ban system needs to be balanced to avoid an oversensitive community. In life, people are going to say things that you don't like.
Agreed.
I guess the other part of the problem Valve is trying to solve is eliminating/minimizing the need to have staff review disputes. But I doubt this is something that you can ever fully automate.
Luckily there is always in-game.
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