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Dota 2 |OT11| $400 of Support and Passion

Volodja

Member
New players are not gonna tread swap, do you even recall what it was like to play dota at the start?
You have no clue what half the shit flying out is, you don't remember the items you have in your inventory and barely know what they actually do, half the time you see players not actually using their spells at all in low level games because they are too busy kind of running around doing fuck all, they are not gonna tread swap because they don't know what they are gonna do at any given second.

There's a lot of shit to teach them before they can actually employ tread swapping not because it's something mechanically difficult (it's really not), but because you need to know what you are gonna do.
 

Hylian7

Member
New players are not gonna tread swap, do you even recall what it was like to play dota at the start?
You have no clue what half the shit flying out is, you don't remember the items you have in your inventory and barely know what they actually do, half the time you see players not actually using their spells at all in low level games because they are too busy kind of running around doing fuck all, they are not gonna tread swap because they don't know what they are gonna do at any given second.

There's a lot of shit to teach them before they can actually employ tread swapping not because it's something mechanically difficult (it's really not), but because you need to know what you are gonna do.

Actually yes I do remember what it was like when I first started playing.

I remember innefficiently using my spells and even on int heroes I was like "wtf why am I already out of mana" Tread switching can help alleviate that a bit.
 

Volodja

Member
Actually yes I do remember what it was like when I first started playing.

I remember innefficiently using my spells and even on int heroes I was like "wtf why am I already out of mana" Tread switching can help alleviate that a bit.
That's not even an answer to what I said, I never doubted that tread swapping can help with mana issues (the actual impact it would have in a game where people waste mana willy nilly is to be seen, efficiency in such amounts doesn't really help much when you are inefficient with everything else and with the way you use the mana you save).
I said that they wouldn't be able to use it, for fuck's sake, sometimes even I don't remember to use it and I try to have a pretty clear idea of what my gameplan is, usually.
 
No lie, I was playing my Razor hero challenge last night and at some point during the game the idea of tread switching just hit me. Not sure if I'll always remember to do it, but on Razor it really made a difference early and mid game.
 
Took me like over 200 matches to know what the fuck was tread switching. I had more problems whatever the fuck each skill did and what arbitrary damaged the guys with gold aura (bkb). That said when I was starting playing BKB WAS op, you could even sell the damn thing to get a new 10 secs magic immune.

God it was absurd. One of the best changes was becoming unsellable and the secs being the same in you buy a new one.
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Hylian7

Member
That's not even an answer to what I said, I never doubted that tread swapping can help with mana issues (the actual impact it would have in a game where people waste mana willy nilly is to be seen, efficiency in such amounts doesn't really help much when you are inefficient with everything else and with the way you use the mana you save).
I said that they wouldn't be able to use it, for fuck's sake, sometimes even I don't remember to use it and I try to have a pretty clear idea of what my gameplan is, usually.

Sure, they'll forget to use it a lot, but I think it's absolutely something worth mentioning. Teaching new players little tricks like this can help them on the road to understanding the game. Stats are a core part of the game. Tread switching does a great job of teaching you that.
 
Re-arm has to be one of the most broken things in ability draft. My team (including myself) let a guy get re-arm and tombstone last night. He would have four stones laid around most of the time and it was impossible to take them down or fight around them.

I had Re-Arm and nether ward once but it didn't do as much as muti-stone.
 

Artanisix

Member
new players are better off getting arcane boots to help with mana issues. It's a lot simpler and it's fine for many heroes at a low level of skill
 

TUSR

Banned
Re-arm has to be one of the most broken things in ability draft. My team (including myself) let a guy get re-arm and tombstone last night. He would have four stones laid around most of the time and it was impossible to take them down or fight around them.

I had Re-Arm and nether ward once but it didn't do as much as muti-stone.

its ability draft tho
 

Hylian7

Member
new players are better off getting arcane boots to help with mana issues. It's a lot simpler and it's fine for many heroes at a low level of skill

With things like Mangoes and Soul Rings around I would have to disagree on that. Sure, on many of the "beginner" heroes that are supports Arcanes are a common pickup, and there's nothing wrong with that. However when you encourage that on heroes you really have no business getting Arcanes on it can start bad habits.
 

TUSR

Banned
With things like Mangoes and Soul Rings around I would have to disagree on that. Sure, on many of the "beginner" heroes that are supports Arcanes are a common pickup, and there's nothing wrong with that. However when you encourage that on heroes you really have no business getting Arcanes on it can start bad habits.

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Hylian7

Member
its ability draft tho

They did remove Meepo from it for balance reasons though.

I think they should keep Rearm in though because it's so much fun with all the stuff you can get for it.

That said, I do kind of wish they didn't have you play as heroes with shit mana pools. Really makes ability draft extra difficult for you, because if you don't get a specific set of skills most of the time, you are screwed.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Tread switching is like a 4k MMR thing at minimum.

Telling a newbie to tread switch is just going to get them killed with their butterfingers and hesitation.
 

Volodja

Member
Sure, they'll forget to use it a lot, but I think it's absolutely something worth mentioning. Teaching new players little tricks like this can help them on the road to understanding the game. Stats are a core part of the game. Tread switching does a great job of teaching you that.
It's just gonna confuse them that early on for a relatively marginal (especially with suboptimal mana managing otherwise) gain.
You want them to focus on what's happening as much as possible not on the buttons they have to play, using skills right is hard enough at that point without adding other buttons to it.
Basically if they are not comfortable with the controls already, adding stuff to basic actions is just gonna make them fumble, they'll attempt to swap and lose the timing on a spell or shit like that.
When they are more comfortable with using a spell at the right moment, you can inject the simple mechanical act of tread swapping and the impact of learning it at that point will be lessened and the returns for the efficiency are also gonna be higher because their play will generally be more optimized (hopefully).

It's like dropping items to get more mana.
Don't teach it to new players, they are just gonna take a year to do the whole process and the possibility of them losing their stuff is gonna be pretty concrete.
 
With things like Mangoes and Soul Rings around I would have to disagree on that. Sure, on many of the "beginner" heroes that are supports Arcanes are a common pickup, and there's nothing wrong with that. However when you encourage that on heroes you really have no business getting Arcanes on it can start bad habits.

bro people will not overcome bad habits until they have like over 500 hours in the game, let people actually understand the game that giving them more complicated shit.


new players have more difficulty mastering certain heroes and what skills of each heroes do, how to last hit, when to get agressive etc

i started like buying salves all the way through the game because I didnt want to go to base again

serious.
 
The number of things "worth mentioning" to someone learning dota, on pair with tread switching, is in the hundreds if not thousands. You cannot practically introduce new players to all those things when they first enter the game, because unless they're the next world renown prodigy, they will not understand it all.
 
its ability draft tho

Serious stuff tho!

Thing that annoys me most about that mode is it only has voice chat at the draft. Can one of you reddit posters start a rage campaign to get this feature added? I know I can just hook up the headset but we need text.
 

JC Sera

Member
The number of things "worth mentioning" to someone learning dota, on pair with tread switching, is in the hundreds if not thousands. You cannot practically introduce new players to all those things when they first enter the game, because unless they're the next world renown prodigy, they will not understand it all.
My only beef with purges guide is it puts down pulling with equal weight as all other basics.
When trying to teach my friend, I showed her the guide, was like hmm i'm not sure about the pulling section, first game with her
"so how do I pull"
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I know its an important and useful skill, but you need to learn to walk before you run. Same with treads.
 
My only beef with purges guide is it puts down pulling with equal weight as all other basics.
When trying to teach my friend, I showed her the guide, was like hmm i'm not sure about the pulling section, first game with her
"so how do I pull"
charm_facepalm.gif


I know its an important and useful skill, but you need to learn to walk before you run. Same with treads.

yeah, pulling is a great example. Pulling itself -- like tread switching -- isn't difficult, but it takes both an understanding of the underlying mechanics in the game as well as presence of mind as a player in order to utilize it to its fullest.

These are not things a new player will have. At all. In fact, if there's anything that new players do not have, it's an understanding of the underlying mechanics in dota, and presence of mind in regards to the game.
 
If someone tried to explain tread switching to me when I was a newbee I would have either ignored it or forced myself to learn it immediately, fail, then give up on Dota after becoming demoralized.

It's like telling new players to learn advanced combos immediately in fighting games because it's the optimal thing to do, which would just hinder their learning experience and overall enjoyment of the game.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
It's like telling new players to learn advanced combos immediately in fighting games because it's the optimal thing to do, which would just hinder their learning experience and overall enjoyment of the game.

Not starting out learning Calamity Symphony
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twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
honestly as someone who only rarely remembers to tread switch, i think there are much more important fundamentals in the game, such as positioning, that make you a much better player more quickly than learning that.
 

JC Sera

Member
honestly as someone who only rarely remembers to tread switch, i think there are much more important fundamentals in the game, such as positioning, that make you a much better player more quickly than learning that.
I have such shitty reflexes, the fact that dota is so dependent on position is the main reason I can be somewhat competent at it
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Hylian7

Member
If someone tried to explain tread switching to me when I was a newbee I would have either ignored it or forced myself to learn it immediately, fail, then give up on Dota after becoming demoralized.

It's like telling new players to learn advanced combos immediately in fighting games because it's the optimal thing to do, which would just hinder their learning experience and overall enjoyment of the game.

It really isn't that complicated though. Stats are a basic part of the game, Tread switching helps a player understand stats a bit better. The fighting game combo analogy is definitely nothing like Tread switching at all.

it's just hylian being uppity now that he's 4k

tread switching is like one of the last pieces of optimization you need to learn.

lol are you serious right now?
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Was DCed for 20 minutes, still won the game. Was annoying to have to refarm up the basics, my team sold all my stuff. Took 60 minutes though, god damn.

RoA + Triple Wraith Band + Stats PL recovery build FTW. Though the team did like 90% of the work, I just pushed creeps since they got an earlyish rax and tossed spears.
 

Russ T

Banned
Was DCed for 20 minutes, still won the game. Was annoying to have to refarm up the basics, my team sold all my stuff. Took 60 minutes though, god damn.

RoA + Triple Wraith Band + Stats PL recovery build FTW. Though the team did like 90% of the work, I just pushed creeps since they got an earlyish rax and tossed spears.

You're welcome!
 
It really isn't that complicated though. Stats are a basic part of the game, Tread switching helps a player understand stats a bit better. The fighting game combo analogy is definitely nothing like Tread switching at all.



lol are you serious right now?

You're approaching this from the perspective of someone who has already learned most of the basics of DOTA and where new information is slowing to the point where acquiring it is a bigger obstacle than necessarily being able to digest it. Think about the actual mental process of tread switching: strength when you're taking damage, agility when you're using regen, int when you're casting spells -- that's literally an extra action for every action you're taking. It's straightforward to apply if the actual mechanics of controlling your hero and using abilities has become familiar enough to not require much mental load to execute, but for a new player who has to consciously think about everything they need to do you're asking them to almost double their amount of mental work.

It's why starcraft players usually tell new players to just ignore their armies and focus on having perfect macro, and a-click whatever they build to the enemy base, because while micro is important it only becomes feasible once macro becomes automatic.
 
Tried that TB mid on a lark. Actually seems like it would work quite well against many opponents. As expected, my teammates were flaming me and calling me noob before the game even started.

BTW Hylian I was watching you play earlier, do you really look at the scoreboard that often or is this just a spectating bug that I had? On my screen it looked like you were looking at the scoreboard every few seconds.
 

Hylian7

Member
You're approaching this from the perspective of someone who has already learned most of the basics of DOTA and where new information is slowing to the point where acquiring it is a bigger obstacle than necessarily being able to digest it. Think about the actual mental process of tread switching: strength when you're taking damage, agility when you're using regen, int when you're casting spells -- that's literally an extra action for every action you're taking. It's straightforward to apply if the actual mechanics of controlling your hero and using abilities has become familiar enough to not require much mental load to execute, but for a new player who has to consciously think about everything they need to do you're asking them to almost double their amount of mental work.

It's why starcraft players usually tell new players to just ignore their armies and focus on having perfect macro, and a-click whatever they build to the enemy base, because while micro is important it only becomes feasible once macro becomes automatic.

Is Dota really anything but a bunch of mental processes stacked on top of each other?

Like I said before, stats are a core mechanic. I think no other item in the game illustrates that better than Treads, and of course, Tread switching. You can just tell new players something like this:

Strength is HP and HP Regen
Int is mana and mana regen
Agi is attack speed and armor

That goes in one ear and out the other. If they learn Tread switching, they actually see the tangible benefit these stats have. I remember when I first started playing, one of the questions I had was "Okay, now I have these boots, and I can change which stat they boost? What's the point of that?"

Tread switching isn't some highly complicated concept, it's relatively simple. It benefits new players by giving them what they need at the right moment, whether HP, mana, or just damage in general. Giving new players tips and little tricks like that are not overtly complicated, and something they can certainly handle. New players aren't complete and total idiots. This has a tangible benefit and something they can learn by doing.

Tried that TB mid on a lark. Actually seems like it would work quite well against many opponents. As expected, my teammates were flaming me and calling me noob before the game even started.

BTW Hylian I was watching you play earlier, do you really look at the scoreboard that often or is this just a spectating bug that I had? On my screen it looked like you were looking at the scoreboard every few seconds.

I have a weird habit of every time I click off my hero, double tap F1 (select hero) and hit the scoreboard right after (tilde key for me). It's a weird habit, but not a really harmful one. I am trying to break it though.
 

Russ T

Banned
Tread switching isn't some highly complicated concept, it's relatively simple.

You're right, provided tread switching is the only thing they're learning.

But they're also learning the quirks of controlling the hero, buying the right items, using the courier, the various intricacies of laning, last-hitting, denying, pulling, etc.

It's not as simple as 2+2...
 

Ultrabum

Member
You're right, provided tread switching is the only thing they're learning.

But they're also learning the quirks of controlling the hero, buying the right items, using the courier, the various intricacies of laning, last-hitting, denying, pulling, etc.

It's not as simple as 2+2...

Meh. For beginners positioning is more important to learn than tread switching.... I would always advise focusing on that and not tread switching until you are higher mmr, like maybe 3K.
 

shira

Member
Tried that TB mid on a lark. Actually seems like it would work quite well against many opponents. As expected, my teammates were flaming me and calling me noob before the game even started.

BTW Hylian I was watching you play earlier, do you really look at the scoreboard that often or is this just a spectating bug that I had? On my screen it looked like you were looking at the scoreboard every few seconds.

rtz does this

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Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I'll be frank with you, Hylian. I've been 4k for a long time and I still don't tread switch unless I'm really lacking in things to do. Generally, there's more important things for me to worry about then getting that 10 mana edge. I know someone who nerds out like that, though. But he's a mid spammer and maybe 500 MMR above me so it's expected at that point.
 
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