NormalFish
Banned
tread switching is for people who like soul ring, tbh
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Dota 2 |OT11| $400 of Support and Passion
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Cellbomber
Member
I'm just throwing it out there. What's more valuable for a beginner camera control or tread switching?
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I only tread switch when using regen(bottle, stick, anisdjbnajsdnbk, etc) or when I'm just short on mana to use a spell and I'm not on int treads, aside from that I just set it to whatever I need the most for the next 1/2 minutes. Maybe sometime in the future I'll learn how to be competent at it but I have bigger holes in my play that I need to deal with.
call_kotaku
Member
Nobody is arguing that tread switching isn't beneficial, or that conceptually it's too hard for people to understand, it's just mentally one of the least efficient ways to optimize your play if you're also learning everything else you need to learn to start engaging with the whole game of DOTA. It's something you learn if you have enough leftover focus to force a habit of it, not something you ask someone to do if they're already completely saturated with new mechanics.
It's an easy avenue of improvement once you become familiar with the basics, but it absolutely isn't a basic skill for DOTA.
NormalFish
Banned
Mechanic noobs actually should be taught way earlier than they typically are: Attack move an ally unit/hero to drop tower aggro. Shit is actually invaluable.
The thing you have the consider is that DOTA 2 is overwhelming in the amount of things you can learn and no one new to this game or genre can hope to learn all of it in one go. There are things that are immediately useful (positioning, starting items, wards, binds, camera control), and things that were invented by pros to get that 10% edge on the other (aggro manipulation, memorizing attack/spell ranges, tread switching, fountain TP bottle refill).
If you overload a newbie with information and recommended areas of improvement, they'll just be worse off. You want their attention focused as much as possible on one task at a time or else they'll stretch themselves too thin and never get anywhere, or worse, give up.
This is why the first recommended heroes are dudes like Lich, Lion, and CM. Self sufficient, simple, point and click heroes that don't need levels or items, and can let the newbie play without worrying about optimization. What's not good for a newbie? Heroes with subtlety like the micro ints, Shadow Demon, Disruptor, Earthshaker. The skillsets associated with them are no less important, and far more important than tread switching. I would rather play with a competent ES than the best tread switcher in the world. Just means you start off slow and gradually ramp up when it comes to learning or teaching the damn game.
If you overload a newbie with information and recommended areas of improvement, they'll just be worse off. You want their attention focused as much as possible on one task at a time or else they'll stretch themselves too thin and never get anywhere, or worse, give up.
This is why the first recommended heroes are dudes like Lich, Lion, and CM. Self sufficient, simple, point and click heroes that don't need levels or items, and can let the newbie play without worrying about optimization. What's not good for a newbie? Heroes with subtlety like the micro ints, Shadow Demon, Disruptor, Earthshaker. The skillsets associated with them are no less important, and far more important than tread switching. I would rather play with a competent ES than the best tread switcher in the world. Just means you start off slow and gradually ramp up when it comes to learning or teaching the damn game.
proper camera control is far more important
i yelled at someone the other day in our stack for not doing this
"a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me a click me "
NormalFish
Banned
you've yelled at me for doing this. But I'm pretty sure all you said was "click me" and I got confused
tread switching gives me a tiny warm feeling inside every time i do it
on the occasion that i survive a teamfight with only a few hit points after tread switching it feels glorious, but it's usually a smaller impact, like minor mana efficiency for farming or maximizing healing from bottle and such
agility treads for bottle and fountain regen, strength treads for soul ring and clutch escapes, intelligence treads for using spells, and a few unconventional tricks like intelligence into strength for dark pact as it casts, shoot spirit lance with intelligence than switch to strength before the illusion lands so it takes an extra hit or agility for that sweet sweet extra 2 damage a hit (lol)
(possibly this works with all illusion spawn delays, but i haven't tested it)
a lot of it is really minor and barely has an impact, but tiny optimizations to pve dota are my favorite
BUT YEAH it is definitely a pretty low priority, something to make a habit but rarely essential
more importantly imo is teaching people to use (and sometimes drop) their sticks and that upgrading to the wand is a really low priority, even if the guide says its core
on the occasion that i survive a teamfight with only a few hit points after tread switching it feels glorious, but it's usually a smaller impact, like minor mana efficiency for farming or maximizing healing from bottle and such
agility treads for bottle and fountain regen, strength treads for soul ring and clutch escapes, intelligence treads for using spells, and a few unconventional tricks like intelligence into strength for dark pact as it casts, shoot spirit lance with intelligence than switch to strength before the illusion lands so it takes an extra hit or agility for that sweet sweet extra 2 damage a hit (lol)
(possibly this works with all illusion spawn delays, but i haven't tested it)
a lot of it is really minor and barely has an impact, but tiny optimizations to pve dota are my favorite
BUT YEAH it is definitely a pretty low priority, something to make a habit but rarely essential
more importantly imo is teaching people to use (and sometimes drop) their sticks and that upgrading to the wand is a really low priority, even if the guide says its core
You're leaving out what it also teaches you in the long run: About the stats.
Regardless, Tread switching just has 3 basic rules to it:
1. Int when you're going to cast spells
2. Strength when you are fighting and need to not die
3. Primary attribute when you are trying to farm
You don't give new players enough credit if you don't think they can handle that.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
+
I swear to god sometimes the game just ignores me and I just look like an idiot tanking the tower.
Here is the lesson I would give (and have given) a few times:
"so stats are weird in this game. So ok drop your force staff. Now use arcanes. Now pick up force staff. See how you have more mana? Like I said this game is fuckin weird. You can do something like this with treads. Wha? Nah just buy arcanes or phase on most heroes and you'll be fine for now."
Glass Shark
Banned
So here's a different underlying question about Treads: if you're not going to bother tread switching, like... EVER... then should you even bother going Treads? Or should you just get a different boot instead?
I used to get Treads a lot on squishy heroes and just keep them on STR for a bit more tankiness, but lately I've just been forgoing that for either Phase, Tranquils, or Arcanes depending on the hero.
I used to get Treads a lot on squishy heroes and just keep them on STR for a bit more tankiness, but lately I've just been forgoing that for either Phase, Tranquils, or Arcanes depending on the hero.
Still a great item for a lot of heroes. That attack speed is no joke for QoP or Storm.
bro did you hack me
LucidMomentum
Member
Y'all need some hair:
(Yes I took the immortal gem out of the crown)
(Yes I took the immortal gem out of the crown)
Still a great item for a lot of heroes. That attack speed is no joke for QoP or Storm.
I'd say the attack speed is absolutely core on Storm for the early game. As it's just enough to make you efficient enough to go spell -> hit -> spell -> hit. Without Treads it's painfully slow and innefficient.
you turn off the dog too?
If you are teaching people that can't remember literally 3 lines of stuff that every person that has ever played games would mostly recognize as sensible, then we have other issues, you may need to explain to them what edge panning is.
If that's the case tread swapping is gonna be very very far into the future.
Also the whole "it's a core mechanic" is not actually an argument for much.
Damage and armor types are too.
No, I don't mean Pure, Magical etc, I mean piercing, hero, siege. You know, the stuff that Valve hid but didn't actually remove because it would affect balance.
I would never even dream of talking about that shit, though, they would look at me like a lunatic.
Now I don't consider them on the same level, I'm just saying that it's not a good justification for anything.
I would talk about stats even in a bit of detail, but I sure as hell don't think that Treads are required for such explanation.
Actually, they'd probably just make it more complicated.
It has been already explained that nobody thinks tread swapping is an hard mechanical thing (I definitely said as much already, maybe more than once) and much less conceptually, but really, no single action in dota is complex but new people still forget to click their shit (and sometimes not even new players).
People get flustered in the middle of the action and don't do very basic stuff like recalling what is the button for the stun, what they should do, they just don't click Q and then click an enemy and when the situation is like that, YES, 1 more button before doing said basic action is an actual hurdle that is definitely gonna make them fuck up more.
This has nothing to do with being idiots because it's not a matter of understanding it, it's a matter of getting used to walking before you get to skipping.
Once the coordination to do basic actions is down, then you can get them used to adding a couple more keys into the mix.
It's kind of like playing DJMax or other games of that ilk, you don't just start with all the shit showering down your screen at 5x speed, you ease into it.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
When I was new I just bought the recommended items and never used the active ones. I got orchid for stats basically.
Took me an embarrassing amount of games until I started consistently using my items when I needed them.
call_kotaku
Member
I'm trying not to type the same post 3 times since you've either not understood or ignored my point, but let me give you an example of what I mean.
Say you want to blink and stun, which is a really basic part of playing a lot of heroes. For an experienced player like you or I, it's probably 2 mental actions, and for a professional or extremely experienced player, it might even be barely 1 action.
For us, the mental pathway is just
- blink
- stun
- walk into position
- which hotkey was blink?
- where do I want to blink?
- okay click it
- which hotkey was stun?
- which hero did I want to stun?
- okay click it
Now if you add tread switching, that's atleast 1 extra mental action for every spell they want to cast (probably 2 since they have to check what treads they have), which is minuscule for people like us and necessary for a pro, but it's an extremely unnecessary burden for people who already need 3-4x as much focus to play the basic game.
But by all means keep explaining what stats do
And you have missed my point. How is that mental action make it any more difficult? You have to think about where you are going like you just said. Next are you going to tell new people not to buy Blink because it's an extra mental action? Your logic really makes no sense here.
All of Dota is adding steps in a similar fashion of that. If you're just going to start chopping off simple steps because they are "extra mental tasks", then you aren't really teaching the new player anything.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
oh god the memories
never using blademail, ghost scepter, force staff, even fucking wand. When I finally started using items succesfully I was so proud of myself.
NormalFish
Banned
I still don't use ghost scepter. Never build that item so I never think to use it when I happen to have it.
I think Wraith King and Sven are the only heroes who tread swapping makes a huge impact due to their low mana pools early on.
Can confirm, best combo. This is the exact one I use.
Still a great item for a lot of heroes. That attack speed is no joke for QoP or Storm.
Can confirm, best combo. This is the exact one I use.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I'd say CK and DK(lesser extent depending on your items) too, DK is the only hero I actually try and tread swap on(late game I just leave em at int though).
call_kotaku
Member
It makes sense because the total amount of mental actions you can keep track of is limited, and tread swapping is literally the least amount of benefit for the amount of focus required. Once simply playing the basic game isn't occupying your entire mental load, you have room to incorporate more things into your play.
New players probably shouldn't play heroes that require blink to be effective, either. Or heroes with more than 3 active skills.
Chopping things into parts to lessen the quantity of tasks going on at the same time at first is exactly how you teach anything, you don't just dump everything on someone, you prioritize.
Just because we don't agree with your priorities, it doesn't mean that we don't think anything should be taught or that treads swapping shouldn't be taught at all.
What I'm saying is: where did that strawman pop up from?
rhophiehalul78
Member
I leave treads at STR.
Problem?
Problem?
There is no strawman here. All I've been saying this whole time is that it would not hurt to teach players a simple thing that would make them more effective. Most of you are saying it shouldn't be taught at first and not until later.
are you at least familiar with the expression 'don't run before you can walk'
call_kotaku
Member
he rolled out of the womb with ball lightning
Absolutely. Tread switching doesn't fall under that. It's a simple thing that only benefits you.
It's not simple.
You have this weird aversion to even considering you might be wrong, on this and elsewhere. You have, literally, the entire thread, telling you you're wrong and it's not the small thing you make it out to be but all you do is dig in harder.
How is it that after 4 years of this back and forth you still haven't learned to step back, take a hard look at it, and maybe consider that you don't know better than everyone else on every single occasion?
You have this weird aversion to even considering you might be wrong, on this and elsewhere. You have, literally, the entire thread, telling you you're wrong and it's not the small thing you make it out to be but all you do is dig in harder.
How is it that after 4 years of this back and forth you still haven't learned to step back, take a hard look at it, and maybe consider that you don't know better than everyone else on every single occasion?
Again, that's how teaching works. You add little by little.
As far as I'm concerned tread swapping is really not worth adding into the mix until the player is not new anymore.
Blink, for example, to me is worth it because it opens up a whole lot of possibilities. Just maybe not on your very first few games where you have trouble correctly controlling anything even when not under stress.
Running is simple too.
Unless you can barely walk.
And these new people can barely walk, let's make sure they don't faceplant into the ground trying to sprint, shall we?