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[Haly]

I have not played a Dota 2 game in a full week and I do not miss seeing a god damned Techies every game. That alone is reason enough to play HotS IMO

Murky tho.

And Abathur.

 

[Emerson]

Honestly that ban made no sense, I took a look at it, and still think it was absolutely ridiculous. The guy in that thread wanted to do the equivalent of playing checkers by picking up the pieces with the toes and say "I'M HAVING FUN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS" when you ask him to stop. It's actively ruining the game if you play that way. It's a simple fact, you know this, everyone knows this.

I don't have any proof of this, but I feel like you and others are just trying to find ways to pick fights with me over something this stupid. Tread switching is so mindnumbingly simple that it absoultely would not hurt and only benefit a new player for them to learn it.



I admit, I forget to do it sometimes, but it's something I should absolutely improve on.



Where are these pros that don't Tread switch effectively? I have yet to hear about any of these.

Saying you don't have to consider wards in your first hundred games or so is absolutely false. Why wouldn't you take this simple advantage that can put your team leaps and bounds ahead of the other team so easily by buying a 50g item and putting it somewhere on the map?

Warding is not that much of an advantage when the other 4 on your team are brand new and aren't watching the map. It's still worth trying to learn much much sooner than tread switching, but the point is that trying to introduce every single concept at once to new players is counterproductive. When you're still trying to figure out what your hero does and how to move him, somebody telling you to ward is not going to make you better any faster.

Also nobody is picking on you. You've spent hours defending a point that pretty much everybody else thinks is ridiculous, and the disagreement started off pretty pleasant. People eventually get frustrated because you just keep hammering away at the same argument and don't actually consider what other people are saying to you.

 

[JC Sera]

can we just talk about steven universe or something instead

Dat HD opening

 

[twobear]

one day i hope to play in a game with tusr's legendary TA

one day i hope life is strange episode 5 releases and it is everything i wanted

one day

TA is OP!

Fix it icefraud

 

[Kard8p3]

Nope, because the show isn't back on the air until September

i cri erryday

Dat HD opening

yo its so fucking good! i have to admit tho i miss the hype screaming

 

[Drkirby]

TA is likely going to get a buff, and I'll hate it, since only the enemy team picks TA and normally wipes my ass with her.

 

[Hylian7]

Warding is not that much of an advantage when the other 4 on your team are brand new and aren't watching the map. It's still worth trying to learn much much sooner than tread switching, but the point is that trying to introduce every single concept at once to new players is counterproductive. When you're still trying to figure out what your hero does and how to move him, somebody telling you to ward is not going to make you better any faster.

Also nobody is picking on you. You've spent hours defending a point that pretty much everybody else thinks is ridiculous, and the disagreement started off pretty pleasant. People eventually get frustrated because you just keep hammering away at the same argument and don't actually consider what other people are saying to you.

Whoa whoa whoa, are you serious right now? Even if the other four players on your team go full on ostrich, and it's just you watching the warded map, then you have gained a HUGE advantage out of having wards already.

Also I never said try to intruduce every concept at once. I have not said that in any of my posts at all. Sure, they don't have to learn tread switching their first game, but it should come pretty soon after they play some games.

I have considered what other people have said, I still disagree with it. I don't know where this false equivalency of "Still disagree with something = not even considering it"

 

[Procarbine]

The fact that you're stooping to insults like this is really silly.

You still completely missed my point. One thing that particularly stuck out was the last part how I said that people that think Tread switching would put them off of the game, then it probably isn't the game for them. This is absolutely true. Dota is full of tons of weird mechanics, that eventually make sense once you gain a better understanding of the game. Some players are put off by the fact that they have to farm on carries and play what they see as "PvE" to win the game. Some people are put off by the fact that some heroes can be particularly frustrating to play against when they don't know how to deal with them. An example of this might be Nature's Prophet being able to show up anywhere on the map on a 20 second cooldown.

Saying that Tread switching is not important is objectively false. I have already made a post about the math behind that. It's a very significant boost that can really give new players the boost they need. As I have generally seen over the years I have been playing, there are two (of probably more than that) types of players that this can really benefit.

1. Those that use their spells too much.
2. Those that don't use their spells enough.

Tread switching would easily benefit the first category, the latter has something different to work on, but yet Tread switching would not hurt them as well.

Is that really what you took away from my post? That I was stooping to insults? Not that I refuted a proposed list point by point and provided counter examples to your arguments? Take a step back and read it again, consider that my post is not a personal attack, and think about the content.

You talk about missing points, well I'm pretty sure I missed none of yours and you've missed all of mine.

 

[rhophiehalul78]

Hylian against everybody round 15...
FIGHT!!!

Seriously Hylian, please stop shitting the thread -_-

ok ok... how about this... not all people play this to be the best in the game.
Some people play this just to have fun.
Me and my friends play without tread switching and we enjoy the game just fine.
ok. I'll stop now, this won't go anywhere.

 

[Hylian7]

Is that really what you took away from my post? That I was stooping to insults? Not that I refuted a proposed list point by point and provided counter examples to your arguments? Take a step back and read it again, consider that my post is not a personal attack, and think about the content.

You talk about missing points, well I'm pretty sure I missed none of yours and you've missed all of mine.

Is that what you took away from my post? Because there was a lot more to it than that. Also you sitting there calling me an idiot is definitely an insult and personal attack. I don't know how you don't see that.

Regardless, I didn't miss any of yours. I disagree with most of them, some were plausible, I'll admit, such as the thing about why the creeps go down the lanes at the same time.

Hylian against everybody round 15...
FIGHT!!!

Seriously Hylian, please stop shitting the thread -_-

It's always me isn't it? Everyone always has the axe to grind with me for whatever reason and if I'm discussing Dota, it's shitting up the thread. Take a look at the thread title.

 

[twobear]

I'll literally kill myself if TA gets buffed

 

[JC Sera]

TA is likely going to get a buff, and I'll hate it, since only the enemy team picks TA and normally wipes my ass with her.

With TAs performance at TI5 i doubt shes getting buffed

 

[TUSR]

Please leave TA alone people

ill never get 5k without her.

 

[Hylian7]

TA will get some kind of nerf, most likely a slap on the wrist, but something. I have no idea where it might come from though.

Edit: Psi Blades spill range is 590/630/670/710? Yeah, that might be a good place to start.

 

[twobear]

TA is like a glass cannon but with a trillion effective HP, she's a broken mess delete it please fat

 

[Haly]

It takes a year or two of experience before a player learns to properly divide their attention between the screen and the minimap. Wards are highly inefficient for people who can't do this.

The curse of knowledge is a cognitive bias that leads better-informed parties to find it extremely difficult to think about problems from the perspective of lesser-informed parties. The effect was first described in print by the economists Colin Camerer, George Loewenstein and Martin Weber, though they give original credit for suggesting the term to Robin Hogarth.[1]

An example of this bias would be of a tailor selling clothes. Because the tailor has made a dress, he is intimately familiar with the quality of the item in craftsmanship, features, and fabric quality. When pricing a dress for sale, however, he needs to take the point of view of an uninformed customer- someone might be walking into the store with no previous knowledge of the owner, dressmaker, or how difficult or easy the item is to make. The tailor, as hard as he might try to take the point of view of the customer, cannot completely separate himself from the knowledge he has of the quality of this dress, and therefore will assume a customer will value and pay much more for the dress than is actually true.

I daresay I've hung around more novice players than you have and I have a pretty good idea of what they are, and are not, capable of.

 

[1.09]

BAHAHAHAHAHA this thread

chvrches' new album releases in a month rejoice

then im going to their show the next week rejoice

haha this is just as on-topic as anything else

dota

 

[Anbokr]

oof just a couple clicks and this thread is much much better again

ta is and always has been a pubstomper, she aight u just gotta pick a counter or two like when you're playing against huskar/ember/storm/am. also veno is guna get buffed again next patch and he takes a fat shit all over ta

 

[Hylian7]

oof just a couple clicks and this thread is much much better again

ta is and always has been a pubstomper, she aight u just gotta pick a counter or two like when you're playing against huskar/ember/storm/am. also veno is guna get buffed again next patch and he takes a fat shit all over ta

She's a pretty good competitive pick too though, and that's why most people probably think there will be some kind of nerf.

It takes a year or two of experience before a player learns to properly divide their attention between the screen and the minimap. Wards are highly inefficient for people who can't do this.


I daresay I've hung around more novice players than you have and I have a pretty good idea of what they are, and are not, capable of.

Correct, but there's usually at least one person on your team that is watching it, even if it's half-assedly watching it. And that person usually goes "*ping ping ping* b"

 

[1.09]

the irony here is that you're on ignore here bruh get it together

 

[rhophiehalul78]

ANIME GIF TIME!!!
Better than dota talk
(im not an animu fan, I just got this from the first page of google images)

 

[Drkirby]

TA is like a glass cannon but with a trillion effective HP, she's a broken mess delete it please fat

TA has to get in line. First we need to Delete Huskar from the game. People may bitch about techies but nothing good has ever come from Huskar.

 

[twobear]

i don't want to see any of the currently popular mids (lesh, lina, ta, storm, sf) get buffed in the next patch

i don't know if they all need to be nerfed..........but i'd like to see something else mid from time to time

 

[Haly]

Correct, but there's usually at least one person on your team that is watching it, even if it's half-assedly watching it. And that person usually goes "*ping ping ping* b"

I can't even get players in my bracket to consistently respond to pings and "b".

Do you have any idea what 1k-2k is like? Go make a smurf and fool around. You'll feel like an absolute god, until the smurf detection kicks in.

 

[Hylian7]

TA has to get in line. First we need to Delete Huskar from the game. People may bitch about techies but nothing good has ever come from Huskar.

The problem is he's so one dimensional, and always has been ever since before his rework of Berserker's Blood. He still does the same thing: Jump someone, output a ton of damage and become harder to kill/output more damage when low health. That's it. With things like Silver Edge getting introduced, a hero that relies so much on a passive like him basically gets completely screwed over by it.

 

[1.09]

if only hylian had ever played against a competent huskar

silver edge doesnt do shit by the time you get it huskar's already snowballed into god status

 

[Hylian7]

i don't want to see any of the currently popular mids (lesh, lina, ta, storm, sf) get buffed in the next patch

i don't know if they all need to be nerfed..........but i'd like to see something else mid from time to time

I think they will all get some kind of nerf, but I also think there might be some change to mid. There's a few places it could come from, and actually Hazaro talked about this when were at TI: Some kind of nerf to stacking camps. I think maybe it would be something like making the spawn box for the medium camp on both sides that's accessible to the mid lane so large that it can't be stacked, or some weird thing that makes it unstackable? I'm not sure.

I can't even get players in my bracket to consistently respond to pings and "b".

Do you have any idea what 1k-2k is like? Go make a smurf and fool around. You'll feel like an absolute god, until the smurf detection kicks in.

I saw people respond to it a lot. I remember I responded to it quite a bit when I was new to the game. I get what you mean though that some people won't respond to it, and hell that even happens at the 3k level sometimes.

Making a smurf for ranked is easier said than done, because you have to get through enough unranked games to play ranked, and then you'll likely be too high for the MMR you want and have to de-rank yourself either by subtly throwing games or straight up throwing them, which is not something you would want to do as you are ruining the game for 9 other people.

 

[Haly]

Who is saying anything about ranked?

Is a new player starting with ranked? No, they're going to AP/AR their first 100 games. Some people will never step into ranked. I should know, because I don't play ranked.

Your perspective is so far beyond what is realistic it's incredible how you can still be so self-assured. When I'm playing with newbies, whether in this game, or League, or HOTS, I breath a sigh of relief if they don't instantly walk into towers and die. And I expect this kind of behavior to persist for at least 50 games before they're clued in on not walking into towers.

 

[Drkirby]

I can't even get players in my bracket to consistently respond to pings and "b".

Do you have any idea what 1k-2k is like? Go make a smurf and fool around. You'll feel like an absolute god, until the smurf detection kicks in.

I don't even remember what it was like being that bad at Dota (And sadly I wiped out all my super old replays), but what I do remember is playing LoL, and it was so true. In what ever crappy ELO I was at back then Wards were basically a non-factor and I was super shit at the game. I played the game I think 5 or 6 months total (From Rumble being released to Dominion coming out), nothing compared to the hours I put into Dota.

Also, Dota Smurf detection kicks in damn fast. Like, after your first game you will be matched up with 9 other smurfs dicking around, and after 10 you will be back to normalish. If you want to stay in bad MMR you basically have to handicap your self.

 

[TUSR]

IHL3

 

[Hylian7]

Who is saying anything about ranked?

Is a new player starting with ranked? No, they're going to AP/AR their first 100 games. Some people will never step into ranked. I should know, because I don't play ranked.

Your perspective is so far beyond what is realistic it's incredible how you can still be so self-assured. When I'm playing with newbies, whether in this game, or League, or HOTS, I breath a sigh of relief if they don't instantly walk into towers and die. And I expect this kind of behavior to persist for at least 50 games before they're clued in on not walking into towers.

Well you mentioned the 1k-2k level, and you don't see MMR in unranked, so I thought you implied it. My bad.

You also have to realize that people that come into this game come from different game backgrounds. A handful of people might come from StarCraft, where they look at the minimap constantly, while others come from games where they wouldn't have learned to do that. Yeah, I would expect stuff like walking into towers to be common. I know I saw stuff in the game I coached last night that was very questionable, like a Bounty Hunter going in by himself with his teammates nowhere near, dies, and then says "Zero help" in chat.

 

[SecretMoblin]

TA doesn't need a change, idg if y'all are serious or not


Elder Titan needs a nerf, though, hero is broken OP garbage right now. Free wins all over the place, goodness.

Just quit this game. It's shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

expose it.

 

[Hylian7]

They need to find a way to buff ET where he's relevant but not too incredibly OP like he was a year or two ago. Natural Order is still good, just the rest of his kit kind of got too nerfed. His ultimate is still pretty underwhelming, even with Aghs.

 

[Haly]

A handful of people might come from StarCraft, where they look at the minimap constantly

These are not newbies in any way, shape, or form. The fundamentals of DOTA goes back RTS. If someone is coming from a Starcraft background they're already ahead of 80% of the players.

Alright? Seriously. This is like the difference between a player who started learning SF4 after playing SF2 in arcades back in the day, and a player who couldn't even lay claim to being decent at 4-way, all items Smash Brothers.

 

[Drkirby]

Elder Titan could use something to make him more fun. He is really dull to play IMO.

 

[Hylian7]

These are not newbies in any way, shape, or form. The fundamentals of DOTA goes back RTS. If someone is coming from a Starcraft background they're already ahead of 80% of the players.

Alright? Seriously. This is like the difference between a player who started learning SF4 after playing SF2 in arcades back in the day, and a player who couldn't even lay claim to being decent at 4-way, all items Smash Brothers.

Someone from a StarCraft background, but has never played a game like this still doesn't know about a lot of the mechanics at work here, but yes, they are ahead of a lot of the new playerbase.

Regardless, it's still likely that someone will watch the minimap, be it a smurf or an actual new player. Warding is still a good habit to get into, and this is even mentioned in the Purge guide that is always passed around as where to get started with Dota.

 

[TUSR]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

 

[Sigismundo]

Elder Titan could use something to make him more fun. He is really dull to play IMO.

What was the buff people keep suggesting? A bash on Natural Order or something?

He probably needs something better than 'fire spirit then whack people' I agree

 

[twobear]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

 

[Kard8p3]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

goddamnit toebear

 

[SecretMoblin]

What was the buff people keep suggesting? A bash on Natural Order or something?

He probably needs something better than 'fire spirit then whack people' I agree

Yes, the masses are calling for a minibash on Natural Order, and they're right. The people demand it. And Fraud better deliver.

Also int gain buff

 

[twobear]

goddamnit toebear

fume.

 

[shira]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

Can you summarize what was said and decided on in the wrapup/post IHL2 twitch discussion.

All I can remember is that you need legit solo MMR and dotabuff this time

 

[Kard8p3]

fume.

 

[TUSR]

Can you summarize what was said and decided on in the wrapup/post IHL2 twitch discussion.

All I can remember is that you need legit solo MMR and dotabuff this time

Ill write a full summary today. (Monday afternoon)

The rules and format will be posted in advance as well to help highlight the changes.

 

[Haly]

they are ahead of a lot of the new playerbase.

This is an understatement.

I wasn't being ambiguous. Classic RTS players are ahead of most of all players. Maybe not 80%, that's an exaggeration. Perhaps more like 50-60%.

Knowledge, for the purpose of this conversation comes in two forms. Propositional knowledge and procedural knowledge. Starcraft players have the latter, but not the former. The thing is, propositional knowledge is very easily taught. Something like a warding guide is propositional knowledge because you only need to follow A, B and C instructions to solve your problem.

Tread switching is not propositional knowledge, it's procedural knowledge. It requires muscle memory, presence of mind, and the ability to multitask, skills that can only be acquired through practice, which requires many orders of magnitude more time than simply reading a guide, and then applying it, because you had enough prior training that you can skip the practice phase every really new player goes through.

 

[call_kotaku]

Not to insinuate, but this discussion with Hylian feels exactly like the half dozen or so discussions I've been a part of where me or someone else calls out an acquaintance on a racist/sexist opinion.

It's just hours of rationalizing "I'm not wrong, you're just misunderstanding me" instead of actually listening, eventually ending in "you're just mad because of ____ that happened last week". At some point, you're more mad at the argument then whatever incorrect assumption you were arguing about, and everyone ends up salty as fuck with zero progress.

---------------

Anyways, is Satanic a good item to build on TA in the late game? I was 5-slotted + gem vs a techies and I had no idea what to build next. Refraction wasn't nearly enough to keep me alive in extended teamfights, especially since the rest of my team was grossly underfarmed.

 

[Monochromaticx]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

---------------

Anyways, is Satanic a good item to build on TA in the late game? I was 5-slotted + gem vs a techies and I had no idea what to build next. Refraction wasn't nearly enough to keep me alive in extended teamfights, especially since the rest of my team was grossly underfarmed.

can you provide a yasp/dotabuff of the match?

 

[G.ZZZ]

RTZ stream make me hyperventilate omag

 

[TUSR]

Anyways, is Satanic a good item to build on TA in the late game? I was 5-slotted + gem vs a techies and I had no idea what to build next. Refraction wasn't nearly enough to keep me alive in extended teamfights, especially since the rest of my team was grossly underfarmed.

gonna need a dotabuff link to see your opponents and itemization.

its typically not tho.