Support NeoGAF

[Hylian7]

This is an understatement.

I wasn't being ambiguous. Classic RTS players are ahead of most of all players. Maybe not 80%, that's an exaggeration. Perhaps more like 50-60%.

Knowledge, for the purpose of this conversation comes in two forms. Propositional knowledge and procedural knowledge. Starcraft players have the latter, but not the former. The thing is, propositional knowledge is very easily taught. Something like a warding guide is propositional knowledge because you only need to follow A, B and C instructions to solve your problem.

Tread switching is not propositional knowledge, it's procedural knowledge. It requires muscle memory, presence of mind, and the ability to multitask, skills that can only be acquired through practice, which requires many orders of magnitude more time than simply reading a guide, and then applying it, because you had enough prior training that you can skip the practice phase every really new player goes through.

You are straight up incorrect if you think that Tread switching is not propositional knowledge. Like you said, you have a problem of needing mana, you solve it with Int treads, so on and so fourth. There is hardly any multitasking going on here. It's problem, solution, that's all there is to it. Apply this as necessary as problems come up. Sure, you'll commit this to muscle memory eventually, but for now it is still propositional knowledge. Starting out you would have to actively think about Tread switching, but it's really brief, and not going to get in the way.

Not to insinuate, but this discussion with Hylian feels exactly like the half dozen or so discussions I've been a part of where me or someone else calls out an acquaintance on a racist/sexist opinion.

It's just hours of rationalizing "I'm not wrong, you're just misunderstanding me" instead of actually listening, eventually ending in "you're just mad because of ____ that happened last week". At some point, you're more mad at the argument then whatever incorrect assumption you were arguing about, and everyone ends up salty as fuck with zero progress.

Are you sure you aren't insinuating? It seems like you are when you're going to compare me to racists and sexists now when we were talking about fucking boots in a video game. I never got to any point of "You're just mad because x". I don't know why you're trying to stir up trouble posting garbage like this.

 

[call_kotaku]

gonna need a dotabuff link to see your opponents and itemization.

its typically not tho.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1739705164

ES's awful build probably lost us the game, but I had a hard time staying long enough to do damage since my refraction burned off so fast vs their team

I wasn't sure if blink was worth the investment, at that point it was just exchanging high ground sieges

 

[Haly]

The thing about propositional knowledge is that application of this kind of knowledge is simple. Here's the test. Can you tread switch as consistently as placing river wards?

No?

Not propositional.

 

[Hylian7]

The thing about propositional knowledge is that application of this kind of knowledge is simple. Here's the test. Can you tread switch as consistently as placing river wards?

No?

Not propositional.

You say no, but why not? I see no reason why you can't Tread switch consistently in situations where you need it. I'm not understanding what you mean.

 

[Wok]

Other newbies might feel different than I would have. I am still going to give my take on this.

As a newbie with no RTS experience, tread switching is off-putting. First, I hate pressing keys for weak purposes, and tread switching seems like unimportant when you begin playing. Second, I would start playing Dota2 to learn how to play a new game and have fun, not to acquire some dumb twitches or other uncontrollable mental habits. Actually, it was already quite off-putting to think that I would have to focus on last-hitting in order to get better at a game which would allegedly appeal to my intelligence.

 

[Monochromaticx]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1739705164

ES's awful build probably lost us the game, but I had a hard time staying long enough to do damage since my refraction burned off so fast vs their team

I wasn't sure if blink was worth the investment, at that point it was just exchanging high ground sieges

I think a heart would have been a good 6th item. blink is good vs techies since you can blink over mined areas like around the tier 3s.
#monos2cents

 

[Hylian7]

Other newbies might feel different than I would have. I am still going to give my take on this.

As a newbie with no RTS experience, tread switching is off-putting. First, I hate pressing keys for weak purposes, and tread switching seems like unimportant when you begin playing. Second, I would start playing Dota2 to learn how to play a new game and have fun, not to acquire some dumb twitches or other uncontrollable mental habits. Actually, it was already quite off-putting to think that I would have to focus on last-hitting in order to get better at a game which would allegedly appeal to my intelligence.

If you let something like Tread switching or last hitting put you off of the game, then it sounds like the game is not for you. That's okay, Dota may not be for everyone. Plenty of people try it and go "Nope, I don't think this is for me". You have to be able to deal with mechanics like Tread switching as they are pretty important, especially as you improve at the game.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

6.84c Windrunner is one of my favourite heroes ever. I hope she doesn't get buffed so she's not at risk of getting nerfed anytime soon.

 

[TUSR]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

 

[sleverfunk]

I'm 5k and don't tread switch. Am i a noob?
Is dota anime?

 

[rhophiehalul78]

I'm 5k and don't tread switch. Am i a noob?
Is dota anime?

Maybe this game is not for you. That's okay, Dota is not for everyone.

 

[jew]

Hylian7

Everyone else

 

[Hylian7]

I'm 5k and don't tread switch. Am i a noob?
Is dota anime?

You can always start doing it now. You'll be amazed at what you get out of it.

 

[Madouu]

IHL3

sigh

Time to start playing this game again

 

[Shuggananas]

Tread switching is for dorks

Never do it except for bottling
You know what's a bigger issue ? Morons who keep them to their main attribute the whole game even though they have a squishy as fuck hero (yes I'm looking at you enchantress who keeps her treads on int the whole fucking game, I guess 1 str gain is enough for you)

 

[twobear]

rtz is fuming on his stream, he can't lh with swm for shit

noob

 

[Satch]

wheres the lycan guy
anbokr help
when you go to lane as lycan what skill do you get first

 

[twobear]

wheres the lycan guy
anbokr help
when you go to lane as lycan what skill do you get first

?

stats

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I tread switch.

4122

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I tread switch.

4122

what a fucking player

 

[Shuggananas]

wheres the lycan guy
anbokr help
when you go to lane as lycan what skill do you get first

wolves max first
feral or howl depending.. feral means better jungling when you have to go there, howl helps kills in lanes if that's possible

 

[shira]

?

stats

http://i.imgur.com/Pk709Gy.webm

 

[Imp the Dimp]

what a fucking player

$50/h coaching

plz add

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/180637124

 

[M.D]

I love tread switching and find it hard to justify phase most of the time

 

[Shuggananas]

I love tread switching and find it hard to justify phase most of the time

chasing power, real need of damage, no real need for AS (thinking of WR, ursa and troll especially for this. or even lina but I like keeping brown boots on lina and then upgrading to BoT when needed)

 

[Hazaro]

You say no, but why not? I see no reason why you can't Tread switch consistently in situations where you need it. I'm not understanding what you mean.

Because the other 15 things that newer players who haven't been playing for years have to ACTIVELY think about take priority. It's really not that hard to understand. Like when all of Brood War became stimulus response for Flash. He 'got' the game. He wasn't thinking about what to do, he just did it.
People who want to or care to focus on that specific aspect will do so for their own reasons.

I thought it was neat and made it a habit after like 3 games, some people don't like to bother or dont care, it's not difficult to understand. When people say it's not that important you could get to 6k MMR+ without treadswapping so WHO CARES KLMAO

If you let something like Tread switching or last hitting put you off of the game, then it sounds like the game is not for you. That's okay, Dota may not be for everyone. Plenty of people try it and go "Nope, I don't think this is for me". You have to be able to deal with mechanics like Tread switching as they are pretty important, especially as you improve at the game.

Full circle, really, come on dude.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I love tread switching and find it hard to justify phase most of the time

Some heroes benefit more from damage (like Windrunner for instance who has no need for the attack speed on PT although she could use the health they provide) than from attack speed and tread switching. Others are too easy to kite without PB like Lifestealer.

Personally, I prefer Phase over Treads on Drow and Sniper as well most of the time. Positioning is key.

 

[M.D]

chasing power, real need of damage, no real need for AS (thinking of WR, ursa and troll especially for this. or even lina but I like keeping brown boots on lina and then upgrading to BoT when needed)

Of course there are a few heroes or situations where I would take phase over treads, no question about it

 

[Shuggananas]

Yeah phase SnY is mean as fuck and often underrated

 

[Monochromaticx]

there have been hints that Hao and iceiceice are out of VG and will be replaced by rotk and burning

 

[Shuggananas]

Feels like the chinese scene is encountering the same issues as the western teams, lack of new blood is concerning even though there's a few new stars every year it doesn't seem like enough
CDEC is a counter example but the other teams feel like they've been using the same players forever

 

[Monochromaticx]

Feels like the chinese scene is encountering the same issues as the western teams, lack of new blood is concerning even though there's a few new stars every year it doesn't seem like enough
CDEC is a counter example but the other teams feel like they've been using the same players forever

Yeah, but they are addressing the issue way better than the west. there is VG.potential and newbee young. Ehome has a couple of new blood, maybe and june were pub stars last year and now they made it to TI.

 

[BHK3]

You are straight up incorrect if you think that Tread switching is not propositional knowledge. Like you said, you have a problem of needing mana, you solve it with Int treads, so on and so fourth. There is hardly any multitasking going on here. It's problem, solution, that's all there is to it. Apply this as necessary as problems come up. Sure, you'll commit this to muscle memory eventually, but for now it is still propositional knowledge. Starting out you would have to actively think about Tread switching, but it's really brief, and not going to get in the way.

Just right click the ancient, kill anything in your way. Problem, solution...Propositional!

You're seriously saying that for new players tread switching is propositional knowledge because it's just clicking a button? You really expect sven who has about 100 hours under his belt to tread switch when he uses mask or his stun while chasing and moving his camera and being aware of his team and the enemy and how much mana he really has and how much more he needs and so on and so forth is really that easy? When I was new I ignored what everyone said about tread switching cause I thought it was pointless, it still is useless for the most part unless you're a strength hero. Sure switching to strength might save you every once in a blue moon or to int for a last ditch tp but new players have much more to worry about, like getting their mechanics up first. They need to be able to even use more than a few items before we throw tread switching in while they normally play. FYI I didn't start tread switching till I was 4K or more.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'm 5k and don't tread switch. Am i a noob?
Is dota anime?

who did u buy ur account from

 

[Shuggananas]

There are tons of things infinitely more important than treads switching
Yesterday I saw the enemy techies almost dying to a tier 2 which had creeps under it, he couldn't even switch the agro off, how do you not know that in very high skill bracket ? It's fucking basics, I think even the tutorial teaches it now

 

[Anbokr]

wheres the lycan guy
anbokr help
when you go to lane as lycan what skill do you get first

howl

 

[Hazaro]

There are tons of things infinitely more important than treads switching
Yesterday I saw the enemy techies almost dying to a tier 2 which had creeps under it, he couldn't even switch the agro off, how do you not know that in very high skill bracket ? It's fucking basics, I think even the tutorial teaches it now

Sometimes you do it 3 times and the tower is like fuck you and then it doesnt give a shit

 

[kionedrik]

I. Give. Up.

I've been feeling pretty burned out by the game and only play from time to time but never in my 2k+ hours in this game have I ever encountered a more incompetent (to put it lightly) group of people like the last game I played.

The only one passable was WW. The rest... just look at the numbers.

I've never seen a Morphling that maxes waveform and adaptive and completely skips morph. If that wasn't enough to piss me off, he proceeded to use eblade on my focus fire target constantly and then would be killed off by magic burst. I also love the aghs build on a safe lane morph. Very high skill indeed.

Thanks Valve. /rant

 

[Shuggananas]

If that wasn't enough to piss me off, he proceeded to use eblade on my focus fire target constantly

I know that feel, had a bane using nightmare on my focus fire target yesterday, plenty of times
I have shackles and hex, why the fuck do you have to nightmare ? Or at least cancel it when I need to kill them

And when it wasn't bane it was morphling using his eblade. What a wonderful game.

 

[shira]

there have been hints that Hao and iceiceice are out of VG and will be replaced by rotk and burning

I'm more concerned about the status of FY.

 

[Monochromaticx]

I'm more concerned about the status of FY.

I don't buy the story, why would he go with Hao? they seem to have had disputes on drafting and shot calling. Also why would fy leave his bro fenrir ?

My wish is that iceiceice moves to mid role, rotk offlane and burning carry +fy and fenrir

 

[shira]

I think the Fnatic roster is set

Black
Mushi
Ohaiyo
Net
Ryor

I don't buy the story, why would he go with Hao? they seem to have had disputes on drafting and shot calling. Also why would fy leave his bro fenrir ?

My wish is that iceiceice moves to mid role, rotk offlane and burning carry +fy and fenrir

Mid Ice

 

[Shuggananas]

iceiceice is overrated

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Holy fuck

Why is this still going

 

[Shuggananas]

Holy fuck

Why is this still going

Take a guess

 

[JambiBum]

These last few pages are basically everyone telling Hylian he is wrong about the importance of tread switching > Hylian says people are attacking him for saying he is wrong > Hylian then tells people that they are wrong and he is right. Which isn't an attack on them because he is the one doing it.

Hylian, just once try to take a step back and look at your posts from a different perspective. You can't even understand why you got banned during that camera positioning ordeal because you think that any time someone disagrees with you that they are out to get you. Any time that anyone disagrees with you in any thread this is how you act. It doesn't even have to be about dota. The most recent example I can think of that isn't the camera control stuff is the thread you made about hateful facebook posts where most of the people that posted in that thread were just like meh just ignore those people and then you attacked them and said that they had a duty to stop hateful shit. IIRC you got banned for that shit too.

It honestly feels like you just can't stand being wrong about anything and if someone disagrees with what you are saying you lose your shit and start trying to play the victim and say that they are attacking you. I don't know if this is just a symptom of all of the personal shit you have going on in your life or if this is just how you are, but either way maybe try to take a step back and take a look at the way you react to people disagreeing with you before you end up getting permed for some stupid shit.

Before you even try to say that this is just another personal attack on you, realize that this is coming from the guy that is actively trying to help you better your life by trying to help you get a job.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Honestly nobody is expecting you to admit you're wrong, but learn to let things go and accept that you're not going to convince literally everyone that you're right, even if you find yourself in a situation in which you ARE right. "Agree to disagree" basically.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Before Hylian gets banned again, let's talk about something actually useful. I saw this trending thread on Reddit and assumed it's just "be nice to people and you gain MMR freely" nonsense but it actually raised some very good points.

For instance, this is something I do very often and 2k players I play with seem to have a low understanding of:

You aren't looking for trades and your wasting time: So many occasions I see the whole teams mid like a Mexican standoff with nothing happening for 3 minutes, you need to be using these opportunities to benefit yourself, farm the nearby camps or push out another lane and just TP in when you are actually needed. If the enemy is taking your tower, don't just stand there jerking off go push out another lane and force rotations, it's completely fine to give up towers if you are making trades elsewhere.

Whenever I assess that our team is not strong enough to keep the enemy team from teaming up and taking our T1 mid (for example), I just ditch it and push/farm another lane and hope to force TPs and stop their push that way.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't whereas fighting 5on5 mid would've been a disaster 90%. Regardless, low MMR players seem to not grasp the concept of that. They'd rather see you feed alongside them than abandon them and pressure the enemy team with split push. It just seems beyond them. They cannot grasp what I just did other than "not helping them" lol.

I'll never sit anywhere not farming creeps. Inefficiency on cores is so game losing.

And one more thing I noticed while playing a 2k acc: Players won't abandon lanes even though they have no business staying in them. Yesterday, my team had a BH who went 0-3 in lane against a Slark and Silencer. I told him to abandon the lane and kill the courier mid, or gank mid or do whatever. He refused to leave the lane because Slark gets "free farm". Yeah right, like you 0-3 scrub could keep him from farming. Factually, Slark would've had less farm if you had stayed in the founten min 0 because he's free farming anyway and has three kills on you on top of that.

I actually wonder if people are just too narrow-minded to see the opportunities this game offers.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Jambi is a good man. Gentle is awesome. Imp bought his account. That is all.

 

[Shuggananas]

Before Hylian gets banned again, let's talk about something actually useful. I saw this trending thread on Reddit and assumed it's just "be nice to people and you gain MMR freely" nonsense but it actually raised some very good points.

For instance, this is something I do very often and 2k players I play with seem to have a low understanding of:



Whenever I assess that our team is not strong enough to keep the enemy team from teaming up and taking our T1 mid (for example), I just ditch it and push/farm another lane and hope to force TPs and stop their push that way.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't whereas fighting 5on5 mid would've been a disaster 90%. Regardless, low MMR players seem to not grasp the concept of that. They'd rather see you feed alongside them than abandon them and pressure the enemy team with split push. It just seems beyond them. They cannot grasp what I just did other than "not helping them" lol.

I'll never sit anywhere not farming creeps. Inefficiency on cores is so game losing.

And one more thing I noticed while playing a 2k acc: Players won't abandon lanes even though they have no business staying in them. Yesterday, my team had a BH who went 0-3 in lane against a Slark and Silencer. I told him to abandon the lane and kill the courier mid, or gank mid or do whatever. He refused to leave the lane because Slark gets "free farm". Yeah right, like you 0-3 scrub could keep him from farming. Factually, Slark would've had less farm if you had stayed in the founten min 0 because he's free farming anyway and has three kills on you on top of that.

I actually wonder if people are just too narrow-minded to see the opportunities this game offers.

Yeah people don't know shit about split pushing or trading.
Enemy is 5 manning mid and there's no way you can def, I try and get a T1 and T2 in another lane and get pinged and flame. Like what the fuck, what do you expect me to do, come suicide on them with you ? Geez