Support NeoGAF

[patapuf]

Before Hylian gets banned again, let's talk about something actually useful. I saw this trending thread on Reddit and assumed it's just "be nice to people and you gain MMR freely" nonsense but it actually raised some very good points.

For instance, this is something I do very often and 2k players I play with seem to have a low understanding of:



Whenever I assess that our team is not strong enough to keep the enemy team from teaming up and taking our T1 mid (for example), I just ditch it and push/farm another lane and hope to force TPs and stop their push that way.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't whereas fighting 5on5 mid would've been a disaster 90%. Regardless, low MMR players seem to not grasp the concept of that. They'd rather see you feed alongside them than abandon them and pressure the enemy team with split push. It just seems beyond them. They cannot grasp what I just did other than "not helping them" lol.

I'll never sit anywhere not farming creeps. Inefficiency on cores is so game losing.

And one more thing I noticed while playing a 2k acc: Players won't abandon lanes even though they have no business staying in them. Yesterday, my team had a BH who went 0-3 in lane against a Slark and Silencer. I told him to abandon the lane and kill the courier mid, or gank mid or do whatever. He refused to leave the lane because Slark gets "free farm". Yeah right, like you 0-3 scrub could keep him from farming. Factually, Slark would've had less farm if you had stayed in the founten min 0 because he's free farming anyway and has three kills on you on top of that.

I actually wonder if people are just too narrow-minded to see the opportunities this game offers.

Knowing what to do when the game slows down is definetly something i struggle with as well sometimes. As a carry, i just farm. But as a support it's always iffy what the most efficient thing to do is, especially when you aren't in a stack.

stacking? warding? buy a smoke and gank (though that can be dangerous if the cores just keep on farming)? protecting your farming cores from getting picked off/5 maning ect.

I'm getting better at it. but i still catch myself standing around not really knowing what to do when a game is going late and it's close/we are behind.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Knowing what to do when the game slows down is definetly something i struggle with as well sometimes. As a carry, i just farm. But as a support it's always iffy what the most efficient thing to do is, especially when you aren't in a stack.

stacking? warding? buy a smoke and gank (though that can be dangerous if the cores just keep on farming)? protecting your farming cores from getting picked off/5 maning ect.

I'm getting better at it. but i still catch myself standing around not really knowing what to do when a game is going late and it's close/we are behind.

I play support too rarely to answer those questions correctly. What is your MMR?

Generally, I prefer when my supports keep the crucial ward spots up. Getting to those places can be difficult obviously.

Also, one more thing I often do: When you are a carry and your team is way behind, the enemy team will often raid your jungle with 3-5 heroes and try to establish map control and drain your team off ressources. In that case, don't freak out and farm the enemy jungle. I lose 45% of my games and I think that's quite an accurate depiction of how often I have to get creative to acquire farm - the enemy jungle is a pretty safe source of income, when your side of the map is infested with enemy heroes.

Having cores sit scared behind your T3 not hitting a single creep for minutes (other than those than arrive at the T3 every 30 secs) is pathetic and game losing.

 

[patapuf]

I play support too rarely to answer those questions correctly. What is your MMR?

Generally, I prefer when my supports keep the crucial ward spots up. Getting to those places can be difficult obviously.

Also, one more thing I often do: When you are a carry and your team is way behind, the enemy team will often raid your jungle with 3-5 heroes and try to establish map control and drain your team off ressources. In that case, don't freak out and farm the enemy jungle. I lose 45% of my games and I think that's quite an accurate depiction of how often I have to get creative to acquire farm - the enemy jungle is a pretty safe source of income, when your side of the map is infested with enemy heroes.

Having cores sit scared behind your T3 not hitting a single creep for minutes (other than those than arrive at the T3 every 30 secs) is pathetic and game losing.

I'm 3.5k.

I'm aware that as a support, most of the stuff you do is situational and the right answer will vary a lot between games. It's more of a mindset problem of not letting yourself being swept up by the pace of the game.

If you make the wrong call, it'll be wrong, but standing around you are guaranteed to be useless (that's still better than feeding, but you get what i mean).

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Tread switching is too much for peeps early.

Learning about stuff like strength etc is important.

Tread switching is up there with animation cancelling.

That awful Purge guide that gets thrown about, first thing it tells people is animation cancelling.

Dumbos everywhere.

edit: im 1.5k MMR but 7k flamer.

 

[Shuggananas]

Just rate "things to know" with two scales : how mechanically difficult/intense it is and the advantage it gives you

Tread switching is mechanically intense and give a small advantage. So it's not important to learn.
Agro switching is mechanically easy and gives a huge advantage. Important to learn.
etc

 

[Kade]

If we set up a 1-5 system for importance levels with 1 being the most important, I'd say Tread switching is 3 or 4. When I started playing, people would give me tips before and during matches and Tread switching is only something that came up at the exact moment I had to do them (I think it was on Sven where I had no mana and switching to Int gave me an extra stun). It's important but there are 2-3 tiers of mechanics and knowledge that are significantly more important.

This user's Solo MMR: 2433

 

[Monochromaticx]

Era basically has my exact music library

 

[G.ZZZ]

Era basically has my exact music library

Dude's a scam, he became jsut another storm picker

 

[Jadax]

I've been playing this game for years and I still don't bother tread switching simply because I have a normal mouse without any buttons, and to assign keyboard buttons for 6 slots is a pain the ass most of the time.

When I used to use my other mouse I did make an effort to tread switch.

 

[Shuggananas]

I've been playing this game for years and I still don't bother tread switching simply because I have a normal mouse without any buttons, and to assign keyboard buttons for 6 slots is a pain the ass most of the time.

When I used to use my other mouse I did make an effort to tread switch.

Please don't tell me you click items to use them

 

[Jadax]

Please don't tell me you click items to use them

Nope, I don't buy more than 3 usable items (excluding treads)

Only those 3 items in my inventory have keybinds.

 

[Shuggananas]

Nope, I don't buy more than 3 usable items (excluding treads)

Only those 3 items in my inventory have keybinds.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I'm muted because of last night, twobear defend me.

 

[Kade]

What did you say?

 

[Haly]

Waste of time.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I've been playing this game for years and I still don't bother tread switching simply because I have a normal mouse without any buttons, and to assign keyboard buttons for 6 slots is a pain the ass most of the time.

When I used to use my other mouse I did make an effort to tread switch.

I absolutely recommend getting a mouse with side buttons. I have two of my item slots on mouse 4 and 5 (which are the two side buttons). 4 is always Blink (if my heroe requires one that is) and 5 is always treads (same). Eventually, you'll develop muscle memory to switch your treads accordingly.

I agree it's a fairly highly advanced technique that should not be high on any 2k's priority list to learn. It just doesn't do that much but at some point, you'll look for things you can be even more efficient on and tread switching and dropping stat items before you bottle are little things that can add up. I feel it's fairly substantial on Sven but I'm pretty much the only Sven player EU West so nobody cares.

 

[Shuggananas]

I hate using mouse buttons for items, I keep it to the minimum : right click, left click and mousewheel click for camera
QWERDF for spells, ZXCVBN for items
Usually put blink on C or most used item if it's not blink, V is second most used item (usually force staff if I have it), N always for TP or BoT (harder to reach), X and B for casual items (BKB) so I don't misuse it, W for items without an active (or least used if I have 6 active items, ie aquila and shit)

 

[Cellbomber]

Yeah in my early days I would opt for items that didn't have a cast ability just cause it was easier. Then I realized it wasn't that difficult having 3 plus items with actionable abilities if mapped correctly.

 

[Haly]

I used to do the HoN method of QWERDF and then Alt + QWEASD for items.

But I'm trying to wean myself off of it and switch to QWERDF and ZXC (not quick cast) V[Space][Mouse4] (quick cast)

 

[gai_shain]

IHL3

Signups open Sept 1st and close Sept 10th

Draft 11th or 12th

First week of games Sept 18-20th

time to win again

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

I still don't like getting over 4 active items if I can help it since it just reduces my effectiveness because I'll just start mashing items in high stress situations. Also no mouse buttons so I lose track of where my 5th and 6th item buttons even are.

I got my items on 123456(switched from zxcvbn since the former is closer to where my fingers are: qwer), I still want to get mouse with buttons so I can move the 5 and 6 to me use buttons which would be very beneficial for tread swapping and blinking.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I still don't like getting over 4 active items if I can help it since it just reduces my effectiveness because I'll just start mashing items in high stress situations. Also no mouse buttons so I lose track of where my 5th and 6th item buttons even are.

Usually, I'm very comfortable with a lot of active items because I have good command of all my hotkeys but I recall having a meltdown with Skywrath who got 4 active abilities, a skill shot ult and another 4 or 5 active items (had something like, Eblade, Sheep, Dagon, RoA ). Man, that shit was too much. Game was a stomp for us (hence my farm) but at some point I couldn't handle the number of actives.

I'm not a Tinker player either.

 

[shira]

I've pretty much accepted I won't know what the fuck is going on. Imma watch the giant bomb codec thingies to review MGS1 and 2. I don't want to go in completely blind, but I do wanna get somethign otuta the story

 

[Shuggananas]

Tbh it's pretty rare to have more than 4 actives (or 5 if you count boots), can't think of many heroes who would do that
Maybe OD ? Atos, hex, force, bkb, refresher, BoTs

Right clickers generally get at least two passive items (mkb + daedalus for instance), supports rareley get 6 slotted and it often includes at least an aghs and a gem

Oh, maybe storm can be included too. Hex, orchid, bkb, bloodstone, linkens, boots (and I don't think you can count bloodstone and linkens as really active items)
So.. int cores mostly

kek

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

What did you say?

let twobear speak on my behalf.

one of the things i asked was, do hillbillies do anything other than lose their front teeth to rot?

edit: My typical Doom performance

 

[Wonderboy91]

Tbh it's pretty rare to have more than 4 actives (or 5 if you count boots), can't think of many heroes who would do that
Maybe OD ? Atos, hex, force, bkb, refresher, BoTs

Right clickers generally get at least two passive items (mkb + daedalus for instance), supports rareley get 6 slotted and it often includes at least an aghs and a gem

Oh, maybe storm can be included too. Hex, orchid, bkb, bloodstone, linkens, boots (and I don't think you can count bloodstone and linkens as really active items)
So.. int cores mostly



kek

Tinker. You just basically never stop pressing buttons.

 

[Drkirby]

Time to Youtube Peace Walker's ending and finish Ground Zeros I guess...

But the Heathstone expansion, and Type 0 HD...

 

[Satch]

why is pugna shit

 

[NormalFish]

So that argument taught me epi slows attack speed. Nerf pls

 

[M.D]

some people should really just not play this they are too fucking dumb

 

[Shuggananas]

why is pugna shit

relies way too much on early game dominance, squishy as fuck, people play him like shit (LMAO I KNOW I'LL MAKE DAGON 5 AND AGHS AND BE A USELESS CUNT ALL GAME)

some people should really just not play this they are too fucking dumb

yeah

 

[Imp the Dimp]

why is pugna shit

6.84c is another late game-y patch and Pugna doesn't excel at that. Pros used him at TI on occasion though. Then again, they're pros.

I have not seen Pugna win a pub months so yeah. Don't pick him and if someone hovers over his picture on the pick screen, discourage them.

 

[Hylian7]

Holy fuck

Why is this still going

Take a guess

When you say "This is still going", I haven't actually posted about it for over a page now until this post, so I'm not sure what you classify as "still going".

These last few pages are basically everyone telling Hylian he is wrong about the importance of tread switching > Hylian says people are attacking him for saying he is wrong > Hylian then tells people that they are wrong and he is right. Which isn't an attack on them because he is the one doing it.

Hylian, just once try to take a step back and look at your posts from a different perspective. You can't even understand why you got banned during that camera positioning ordeal because you think that any time someone disagrees with you that they are out to get you. Any time that anyone disagrees with you in any thread this is how you act. It doesn't even have to be about dota. The most recent example I can think of that isn't the camera control stuff is the thread you made about hateful facebook posts where most of the people that posted in that thread were just like meh just ignore those people and then you attacked them and said that they had a duty to stop hateful shit. IIRC you got banned for that shit too.

It honestly feels like you just can't stand being wrong about anything and if someone disagrees with what you are saying you lose your shit and start trying to play the victim and say that they are attacking you. I don't know if this is just a symptom of all of the personal shit you have going on in your life or if this is just how you are, but either way maybe try to take a step back and take a look at the way you react to people disagreeing with you before you end up getting permed for some stupid shit.

Before you even try to say that this is just another personal attack on you, realize that this is coming from the guy that is actively trying to help you better your life by trying to help you get a job.

I know this post is not any kind of personal attack, and I appreciate your opinion on the matter.

First of all, the camera control ordeal thing I still believe was unfair, as that guy wanted to come into Dota 2 and not play the game correctly even though he was clearly told how to, he refused to listen saying "I want to have fun", thus ruining the experience for his teammates. Griefing teammates might be "fun", but I think everyone agrees you should not do that. I made this comparison before, but it would be like playing checkers by picking up the pieces with your toes. The thread about the Facebook thing I agree I got out of control and deserved that ban. That's fine.

I don't think everyone is making personal attacks here. There are definitely some though, and I think you can see that. I would go multi quote the posts I am talking about but I am on mobile at the moment. If you would like I can do that later.

There have been a ton of informative posts and interesting viewpoints about Tread switching. I do think that many really underestimate the benefit you gain from it, and it would really help you in your own matches. Give it a try.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

So that argument taught me epi slows attack speed. Nerf pls

Okay I never knew that

Dota's fucking stupid

 

[Shuggananas]

The benefits of treads switching are negligible

Doesn't mean it's useless, but there are many more important things to learn than tread switching, denying that is understating the complexity of the game

As I said before, rank "things to learn" from 1 to 5 for mechanical complexity (1 being hard, 5 being easy) and 1 to 5 for usefulness/impact (5 being most impactful) and take the sum of these, then learn from highest to lowest. Tread switching has a usefulness of like 2/5 but mechanical complexity of 2/5 too (it's not hard to do, just press a button, but you have to do it all the time for it to matter)
Switching tower agro is 5/5 mechanically (super easy, A-click an ally creep) and 4/5 usefulness (it saves lives really often or at least allows you to push safely), you need to learn that before you learn tread switching

It'd be nice to have a list of "things to learn" but there's just so many

 

[Kade]

I allowed someone to make me angry yesterday. I'm succumbing to the beast inside.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I've literally never said anything in the vicinity of that in a single match of dota.

 

[inkls]

Arteezy turn down for what

"holy shit double rapier? we gotta deal with this shit"

(audio is from stream, music wasn't edited in)

 

[abunai]

My bad-ish friends who i stack with occasionally all thought dota was a WoW-arena style game and they sort of zerged around spamming spells. Just for some perspective on what certain new players actually perceive the game to be. They used to aimlessly wander between towers and neutrals, not really understanding what they were doing. Tread switching is gonna be bottom of a new player's list of things to improve upon. Someone who knows what they're doing, sure, whatever.

obligatory

i played medusa yesterday and didn't want to kill myself
what's going on
we even won, completely bucking my loss streak

 

[Drkirby]

why is pugna shit

Off the top of my head, Low HP, he has to get really close to use his Nether Blast, most times people force him into some dumb support role in pubs.

 

[lucebuce12]

Off the top of my head, Low HP, he has to get really close to use his Nether Blast, most times people force him into some dumb support role in pubs.

If a hero is shit mostly because people just don't know how to play him, then I'd argue that hero is actually not shit at all.

 

[Shuggananas]

i played medusa yesterday and didn't want to kill myself
what's going on
we even won, completely bucking my loss streak

medusa gets overshadowed by gyro so badly

gyro has better presence early and mid, better range on auto attacks with flak, no target limit (big issue), no damage reduction...

6 attacks with flak + calldown make up for the cooldown on flak compared to split shot, easily

 

[Haly]

He's not, but he drops off very fast. You need to end in 30 or you're just useless.

tSwift plays a mean Pugna.

 

[Haunted]

The benefits of treads switching are negligible

Doesn't mean it's useless, but there are many more important things to learn than tread switching, denying that is understating the complexity of the game

As I said before, rank "things to learn" from 1 to 5 for mechanical complexity (1 being hard, 5 being easy) and 1 to 5 for usefulness/impact (5 being most impactful) and take the sum of these, then learn from highest to lowest. Tread switching has a usefulness of like 2/5 but mechanical complexity of 2/5 too (it's not hard to do, just press a button, but you have to do it all the time for it to matter)
Switching tower agro is 5/5 mechanically (super useful, A-click an ally creep) and 4/5 usefulness (it saves lives really often or at least allows you to push safely), you need to learn that before you learn tread switching

It'd be nice to have a list of "things to learn" but there's just so many

Shuggananas with a smart, sensible post.

miracles do happen

I allowed someone to make me angry yesterday. I'm succumbing to the beast inside.

Kade pls

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

is there hope for me?

 

[Haly]

Jesus, Hylian. You've broken shugg.

 

[Shuggananas]

is there hope for me?

wil u be my padawan

 

[Imp the Dimp]

is there hope for me?

Not afk jungling Doom for 15 minutes should help

 

[abunai]

medusa gets overshadowed by gyro so badly

gyro has better presence early and mid, better range on auto attacks with flak, no target limit (big issue), no damage reduction...

6 attacks with flak + calldown make up for the cooldown on flak compared to split shot, easily

I randomed and was too stubborn to repick
i love torture

 

[Satch]

He's not, but he drops off very fast. You need to end in 30 or you're just useless.

tSwift plays a mean Pugna.

he plays a mean everything