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[Drkirby]

Looks like ti4 tickets are going out, a few people in Washington to theirs today, so if you are in the us keep an eye out. They are pretty snazzy looking, they even come with a purple dota lanyard.
http://imgur.com/a/qYrde

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Makes no sense whatsoever.

None at all, especially as it appears he's genuinely ill. No one wants to miss the biggest tournament of their lives.

So thick.

Honestly, fuck that noise. Play with the 5 invited or don't play at all. It's harsh, but so is life. Gotta keep it fair for every team participating. Last year, LGD (iirc) had a roster change late and lost their automatic invitation. They had to play through the qualifiers to get to TI3. Now we have Fnatic, who is essentially saying "we'd really like to be able to play with whichever of these 2 guys is fit to play" only a couple of months away (now 1 month away) and putting Valve in the position to how force them to at least have to earn their way in. At best, Valve puts them in the final qualifier group with CIS, Liquid and whoever...but that's not fair to those teams who actually won their regional qualifiers.

Gotta have standards and expectations, and you have to hold everyone to them. How much more so with millions of dollars on the line?

Era plays or Fnatic doesn't. To me, it's that simple. Valve would be doing them a favor (and something unfair relative to every other potential participating team) by letting them keep their invitation and play with a stand-in. If your tennis duo makes it to the Wimbeldon Doubles Finals and one of the two goes down with an arm injury before the final match, you don't get to pick some random person to play. You forfeit. Cold rules are cold, but fair.

All that being said, I do hope that whatever Era is struggling with is something he can recover from. Missing TI4 may do him more harm than good, depending on his metal state. I hope the doctors advising him are fully competent and he's getting good care. Being from a medical family, I've met enough psychologists and psychiatrists to know that there are a shockingly high number of shitty ones. And sometimes it's extremely hard to measure success and improvement.

 

[Marauder Shields]

In a way I can understand Valve's strict stance on this, as a way of protecting players from organisation's that would chop and change their lineups to improve their chances for a big tournament like TI. And I'd imagine an issue like what Era is experiencing isn't as clear cut to see, or assess, as what a physical injury would be, which complicates things further.

In the end though given that they allowed EG to swap in Mason, when Fear was on the initial TI4 invite, I think they should allow Fnatic the same opportunity if the need is there. They kinda already opened the door on this matter.

 

[Ikuu]

Honestly, fuck that noise. Play with the 5 invited or don't play at all. It's harsh, but so is life. Gotta keep it fair for every team participating. Last year, LGD (iirc) had a roster change late and lost their automatic invitation. They had to play through the qualifiers to get to TI3. Now we have Fnatic, who is essentially saying "we'd really like to be able to play with whichever of these 2 guys is fit to play" only a couple of months away (now 1 month away) and putting Valve in the position to how force them to at least have to earn their way in. At best, Valve puts them in the final qualifier group with CIS, Liquid and whoever...but that's not fair to those teams who actually won their regional qualifiers.

Gotta have standards and expectations, and you have to hold everyone to them. How much more so with millions of dollars on the line?

Era plays or Fnatic doesn't. To me, it's that simple. Valve would be doing them a favor (and something unfair relative to every other potential participating team) by letting them keep their invitation and play with a stand-in. If your tennis duo makes it to the Wimbeldon Doubles Finals and one of the two goes down with an arm injury before the final match, you don't get to pick some random person to play. You forfeit. Cold rules are cold, but fair.

I agree, time to remove EG too.

 

[Anbokr]

I agree, time to remove EG too.

Agreed.

Invite the players not the team! That's the motto, right? Well, fear was the invited player. So let's stick to these Spanish Inquisition tournament rules that don't allow stand-ins, reserves, substitutes, or whatever you want to call them, that nearly every other modern "sport" accepts and allows. We still want dota to be a sport, or I guess "esport," right? Shit happens sometimes.

 

[Ikuu]

Remember Fear is so injured he can only stream Dota for 10 hours at a time.

 

[sfedai0]

I will tear up my Ti4 ticket if Valve dosent bend the rules for Fnatic.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I will tear up my Ti4 ticket if Valve dosent bend the rules for Fnatic.

That'll show em.

 

[Shinypogs]

Honestly I'm not on Fnatics side this time.

There needs to be a regulated and monitored standin system for all the teams in cases of injury, accidents, illness etc. The problem is when it happens now it just looks fishy and like favoritism on case by case basis. It doesn't help that Fnatic refused to disclose the info ( to the public) any earlier. It would be less complicated if teams would be more honest about injuries, plans to replace players etc.

I honestly think that if Valve bends for Fnatic they will tell Era to not bother trying to travel/play at all and for all we know he really will be ready to give it a shot and lose it in favour of their new special snowflake Xcalibur.

I say this as someone who is in therapy and suffers from severe anxiety issues. If he isn't ready to do it then he can't and in that case replacing him is understandable though maybe Fnatic should have to go through the playins or something. However, if Era thinks he's ready but his team has the option of saying he isn't ( and he's not gonna argue it publicly) there's a good chance they could damage the progress he has made by not giving him a shot. It can be so fucking hard to get to a tentative point of feeling ready to face things again. To build up to that and then be told "don't bother" can be devastating, speaking from experience.

After this International Valve really needs to put a proper system in place for standins. I mean god forbid a player get injured the day before TI4, teams should always have a stable alternate they can rely on who is listed as Alt on their roster. Although I suppose this becomes a money issue at some point too.

 

[KingKong]

Honestly, fuck that noise. Play with the 5 invited or don't play at all. It's harsh, but so is life. Gotta keep it fair for every team participating. Last year, LGD (iirc) had a roster change late and lost their automatic invitation. They had to play through the qualifiers to get to TI3. Now we have Fnatic, who is essentially saying "we'd really like to be able to play with whichever of these 2 guys is fit to play" only a couple of months away (now 1 month away) and putting Valve in the position to how force them to at least have to earn their way in. At best, Valve puts them in the final qualifier group with CIS, Liquid and whoever...but that's not fair to those teams who actually won their regional qualifiers.

Gotta have standards and expectations, and you have to hold everyone to them. How much more so with millions of dollars on the line?

Era plays or Fnatic doesn't. To me, it's that simple. Valve would be doing them a favor (and something unfair relative to every other potential participating team) by letting them keep their invitation and play with a stand-in. If your tennis duo makes it to the Wimbeldon Doubles Finals and one of the two goes down with an arm injury before the final match, you don't get to pick some random person to play. You forfeit. Cold rules are cold, but fair.

All that being said, I do hope that whatever Era is struggling with is something he can recover from. Missing TI4 may do him more harm than good, depending on his metal state. I hope the doctors advising him are fully competent and he's getting good care. Being from a medical family, I've met enough psychologists and psychiatrists to know that there are a shockingly high number of shitty ones. And sometimes it's extremely hard to measure success and improvement.

But why is having the same exact roster such a big deal? You have to consider that esports arent like real sports where teams either have big rosters and can replace whoever gets injured, or are individualized enough (like tennis) where if someone's injured, that's it. There's not enough money or a system in place to keep a roster of 6+ players where one doesnt play 95% of the time

They have 5 players, one can't play, they tell Valve and find a stable replacement hoping that Era gets better but he doesnt, where's the problem?

 

[Shorty11857]

But why is having the same exact roster such a big deal? You have to consider that esports arent like real sports where teams either have big rosters and can replace whoever gets injured, or are individualized enough (like tennis) where if someone's injured, that's it. There's not enough money or a system in place to keep a roster of 6+ players where one doesnt play 95% of the time

They have 5 players, one can't play, they tell Valve and find a stable replacement hoping that Era gets better but he doesnt, where's the problem?

Obviously the idea is that Fnatic aren't really being invited but the five players that make up Fnatic are, which is supposed to help the players

But in Era's case I'm not sure telling someone who is suffering from mental health issues related to anxiety that he has to play or his team is disqualified is a good idea...

 

[JawesomeJaw]

Looks like ti4 tickets are going out, a few people in Washington to theirs today, so if you are in the us keep an eye out. They are pretty snazzy looking, they even come with a purple dota lanyard.
http://imgur.com/a/qYrde

I hope mine show up. Have made a couple calls saying I needed to change the address because of a move. Ticketmaster told be to talk to the arena, the arena told be to contact Ticketmaster. Have mail forwarding set up but it might not be ready in time and I worry about them just sitting in an unused apartment mailbox.

 

[Cyborgmatt]

Knowing Valve we'll never learn about theirs though. If only there was an esports site that could dig into this...

There are lines I won't cross and someone 's personal situation is one of those.

 

[Haly]

As much as I like Fear, he wasn't really 2014 EG, and if he had played in Mason's place at TI4, it would've left a bad taste in my mouth. Conversely, the fact that Fnatic suddenly saw an uptick in success with E-god over Era is exactly the kind of stuff Valve wanted to prevent with their roster rules. Sucks, but Fnatic is young, and they can survive another year.

All I see is Valve actually sticking to their own set rules.

 

[Sanjay]

Honestly, fuck that noise. Play with the 5 invited or don't play at all. It's harsh, but so is life. Gotta keep it fair for every team participating. Last year, LGD (iirc) had a roster change late and lost their automatic invitation. They had to play through the qualifiers to get to TI3. Now we have Fnatic, who is essentially saying "we'd really like to be able to play with whichever of these 2 guys is fit to play" only a couple of months away (now 1 month away) and putting Valve in the position to how force them to at least have to earn their way in. At best, Valve puts them in the final qualifier group with CIS, Liquid and whoever...but that's not fair to those teams who actually won their regional qualifiers.

Gotta have standards and expectations, and you have to hold everyone to them. How much more so with millions of dollars on the line?

Era plays or Fnatic doesn't. To me, it's that simple. Valve would be doing them a favor (and something unfair relative to every other potential participating team) by letting them keep their invitation and play with a stand-in. If your tennis duo makes it to the Wimbeldon Doubles Finals and one of the two goes down with an arm injury before the final match, you don't get to pick some random person to play. You forfeit. Cold rules are cold, but fair.

All that being said, I do hope that whatever Era is struggling with is something he can recover from. Missing TI4 may do him more harm than good, depending on his metal state. I hope the doctors advising him are fully competent and he's getting good care. Being from a medical family, I've met enough psychologists and psychiatrists to know that there are a shockingly high number of shitty ones. And sometimes it's extremely hard to measure success and improvement.

Well most sports, if this wants to be one, allows replacements if they are injured/sick.

It's kind of really stupid to actually only have 5 members too with no subs allowed.

I can see these rules being implemented sooner or later, its just a matter of time.

 

[Marauder Shields]

As much as I like Fear, he wasn't really 2014 EG, and if he had played in Mason's place at TI4, it would've left a bad taste in my mouth. Conversely, the fact that Fnatic suddenly saw an uptick in success with E-god over Era is exactly the kind of stuff Valve wanted to prevent with their roster rules. Sucks, but Fnatic is young, and they can survive another year.

All I see is Valve actually sticking to their own set rules.

Isn't that kind of irrelevant though? Fear was the one that got the TI4 invite so Valve allowing them to swap Mason in, for whatever reason, already goes against their "inviting the players" mantra.

I actually kinda like Valve's stance, from the perspective of protecting players, but I don't see how their stance on Fnatic is tenable given the concessions they allowed EG.

 

[Haly]

Isn't that kind of irrelevant though? Fear was the one that got the TI4 invite so Valve allowing them to swap Mason in, for whatever reason, already goes against their "inviting the players" mantra.

I actually feel like this was a violation of the rules they set forth and that, when they sent the invite to Fear, they were bending them because he is one of the faces of Free to Play, DOTA2 and EG. There were real reasons for Valve wanting Fear instead of Mason at The International. It's hard to overlook that.

Era? Not so much.

If there was a compromise to be had here, it should be sending Fnatic to Qualifiers and bumping someone up.

 

[dave is ok]

They should make Xcaliburs invite a stretch goal

 

[Haly]

They should make Xcaliburs invite a stretch goal

20 million stretch goal: We drop the roster rules

 

[Ikuu]

All I see is Valve actually sticking to their own set rules.

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/20779-kuroky-will-fly-to-seattle-with-mousesports

Visa issues more important than mental health.

 

[Haly]

Welp.

I'm out, this conversation is just too much of a minefield to bother with.

 

[Ketch]

I imagine the situation with Fear/Mason was handled way earlier then the public announcement. As an organization EG were probably working on two paths, get Fear rehabilitated so he can play while also telling valve that Mason would take his place (way before they announced it to the public), that way they're covered no matter what. So Fear is ready to play but they've already told Valve they've got a stand in.... and if Valve said it's too late the change the roster then it would explain a lot about this current situation.

Mason gets officially added to EG, Fear is not happy and trying to get into TI anyway he can (Playing for NAR, Casting, Coaching, whatever), and Era is not allowed to have a stand in, because they've already said it's too late to change your roster. The mistake they made was not communicating any of what was actually happening to the audience, which is fucking super surprising coming from Valve am I right?

I think what they should do, at this point, is allow fnatic (or anybody really) to play in TI with no more then one stand in. They've already let EG do this, and even if behind the scenes the circumstances are different, in front of the scenes it will look unfair.

They need to clarify and publish comprehensive tournament regulations ahead of time for TI5 to keep something like this from happening again, but for TI4 it's too late.

All of their problems/drama/controversy or whatever you want to call it, could be handled with better public relations. Maybe they should spend some of those millions of dollars to better communicate with the people who gave it to them.

 

[inkls]

Welp.

I'm out, this conversation is just too much of a minefield to bother with.

Techies?

 

[kvk1]

It's amusing that this is causing such a schism in the community.

 

[Sanjay]

http://dota2.gamebanana.com/skins/133989

Pretty cool looking.

 

[Deadly]

They need to clarify and publish comprehensive tournament regulations ahead of time for TI5 to keep something like this from happening again, but for TI4 it's too late.

All of their problems/drama/controversy or whatever you want to call it, could be handled with better public relations. Maybe they should spend some of those millions of dollars to better communicate with the people who gave it to them.

They probably addressed this directly with the teams themselves. It doesn't really matter if we know or not. Fnatic is likely posting this now to get the public on their side and change Valve's mind.

 

[Shinypogs]

It's amusing that this is causing such a schism in the community.

E-sports now legit with their own community fracturing arguments on how rules should be applied and what is and isn't in the interest of fair play. On the bright side the likelihood of someone getting bitten during TI4 is fairly low.

Also fml rolled Io for daily hero, that's just not gonna happen.

 

[Einbroch]

You guys are funny.

Ketch is a pretty smart dude.

 

[Drkirby]

Well one way or another, valve will make a statement in the next 10 days, since that is when teams are flying out.

 

[Hylian7]

Streaming!

http://www.twitch.tv/hylian7

 

[Ketch]

They probably addressed this directly with the teams themselves. It doesn't really matter if we know or not. Fnatic is likely posting this now to get the public on their side and change Valve's mind.

It does absolutely matter. Part of being fair is transparency, not just for the teams also for the fans. Like someone already posted, people pay a lot of money to go see there favorite teams in person.... The fans have a right to know why their favorite team/player isn't going to be there or whether or not the compition is a fair one. They don't need to disclose all of the details, but they need to present the admin point of view in order to avoid taking advantage of the fan base.

 

[Drkirby]

It does absolutely matter. Part of being fair is transparency, not just for the teams also for the fans. Like someone already posted, people pay a lot of money to go see there favorite teams in person.... The fans have a right to know why their favorite team/player isn't going to be there or whether or not the compition is a fair one. They don't need to disclose all of the details, but they need to present the admin point of view in order to avoid taking advantage of the fan base.

Sadly in this case what is fair for the fans and fair for the competition are at odds.

 

[Anbokr]

?

The competition would be worse with fnatic out; it's a loss for the fans and a loss for the tournament, not to mention the other 4 players on fnatic who worked all year to get to TI and would be disqualified because of something completely out of their control. Fuck it, not even all 4, all 5. Era probably blames himself and feels like shit (missing out on a 10 mil dollar + tourney and all), knows he's going to be mocked for "zomg panic attacks man up," because that's how most of the US (world?) treats mental illness, and he also knows that thanks to Valve's hard-line stance, he is fucking over his team.

 

[Haly]

It's the precedence that Valve really cares about. Roster drama is a plague on any kind of team-based competition, and if they let that cloud hang over TI4, which is supposed to be the premiere D I G I T A L S P O R T S tournament, well, it's not going to be pretty.

 

[Ketch]

Sadly in this case what is fair for the fans and fair for the competition are at odds.

Maybe, but you don't know that.

The truly sad part, is that if you're a fan, there's no way to know what in the actual fuck is going on.

 

[manfestival]

geez you guys make it seem like they are disbanding

 

[BeesEight]

I think between this and EG we'll see a standin rule for next year.

I don't really know how I feel about this situation though. I'm a big Fnatic fan but I don't know if it's appropriate to give them a pass. I was personally surprised that EG was able to get their roster changed without a fuss and now we already have a second issue arising.

I don't want to see Fnatic disqualified for this, though. Perhaps they could expand the wildcard slot to two positions and bump Fnatic down there with Xcalibur. The top two can then have a shot for the International proper.

I'll be really unimpressed if Valve doesn't do something to accommodate since EG didn't even get knocked down to the qualifier slot like LGD did the year prior.

 

[Anbokr]

Also this wouldn't even be a debate if Valve went hard-line stance on EG. Valve broke the precedent, Valve allowed some wiggle room, and Valve created these "exception" expectations after they allowed Mason to replace Fear because of "injury." The hypocrisy from Valve is the reason this is gaining so much attention and outrage.

You either disallow both fnatic and EG from playing to maintain the whole "absolutely no stand-ins" TI rule or you start bending the rules for everyone on a case by case basis. All this talk of "fair" and "unfair," well it's unfair that one team was given a special exception and yet all others are excluded from this? How's that "fair" rofl?

 

[Deadly]

?

The competition would be worse with fnatic out; it's a loss for the fans and a loss for the tournament, not to mention the other 4 players on fnatic who worked all year to get to TI and would be disqualified because of something completely out of their control. Fuck it, not even all 4, all 5. Era probably blames himself and feels like shit (missing out on a 10 mil dollar + tourney and all), knows he's going to be mocked for "zomg panic attacks man up," because that's how most of the US (world?) treats mental illness, and he also knows that thanks to Valve's hard-line stance he is fucking over his team.

I have to agree that if they end up not competing, I don't think it would really help with Era's condition either, he must feel terrible

 

[xanavi]

It's the precedence that Valve really cares about. Roster drama is a plague on any kind of team-based competition, and if they let that cloud hang over TI4, which is supposed to be the premiere D I G I T A L S P O R T S tournament, well, it's not going to be pretty.

Olympic men's hockey allows substitutions for injured players up to 24 hours before puck drop. This just sounds like a rule for rule's sake.

 

[Shorty11857]

Also this wouldn't even be a debate if Valve went hard-line stance on EG. They broke the precedent, they allowed some wiggle room, and they created these "exception" expectations after they allowed Mason to replace Fear because of "injury." The hypocrisy from Valve is the reason this is gaining so much attention and outrage.

They've done it before when they let Kuroky play with Mouz in TI2 when one of their players had Visa issues and couldn't attend. If a player is unable to attend I don't see why the rest of the team should be punished.

 

[Anbokr]

As much as I like Fear, he wasn't really 2014 EG, and if he had played in Mason's place at TI4, it would've left a bad taste in my mouth. Conversely, the fact that Fnatic suddenly saw an uptick in success with E-god over Era is exactly the kind of stuff Valve wanted to prevent with their roster rules. Sucks, but Fnatic is young, and they can survive another year.

All I see is Valve actually sticking to their own set rules.

Fear's name was on the invite for EG, not Mason. And for all we know, fear could have played through injury (as others have pointed out, he's played hundreds of games since it was announced, even more after he was replaced), but because Mason had been playing with EG for a month or two, maybe they felt they had a better chance at TI with mason, and then sidelined Fear and exaggerated the injury. It's even more fishy that fear will get a cut of the TI pool if EG wins, arteezy or mason confirmed it in some interview (hence why he wouldn't speak up even if he was booted). Either way, Valve already broke their own set rules.

 

[trh]

Clinton Loomis @FearDotA
Let's just party @EraDota fuk TI. LET ME KNOW THE TIME AND PLACE.

lold

 

[Shinypogs]

Olympic men's hockey allows substitutions for injured players up to 24 hours before puck drop. This just sounds like a rule for rule's sake.

Explain further please? You mean the 6 men starting on the ice can be shuffled a day before the game begins or players can be added to the Olympic team at the last minute? The first is reasonable and why sports teams have large rosters, the second seems stupid, if they were good enough to be a replacement they should have already been part of the 20-22 man team.

 

[TUSR]

hylian where is your blink dagger

 

[Hylian7]

hylian where is your blink dagger

Where is Storm Spirit's Blink dagger?

 

[Hylian7]

I'm okay with this.

 

[A Sentient Keyboard]

I DID IT!

Io was a worthy final boss, that hero is pretty difficult. Fortunately, my experience with supports has given me some okay map awareness, so I was able to pull of some pretty solid relocates that my team made great use of. Also, spirits are surprisingly strong, I ended up getting a killing spree with them. I don't think I will continue playing him unless I get another awesome, communicating team though.

 

[shira]

Just let Black play with fnatic. 2 Problems solved.

 

[Kard8p3]

holy fuk tide is such a good hero.