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Dota 2 |OT5| TECHIES!!!
- Thread starter Artanisix
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FlutterPuffs
Member
I don't mind players being swapped out due to injuries. In fact I think it's pretty stupid most esports don't have a substitution system.
People get sick, they get injured. Having a substitution system helps better than suddenly coming out with a player out of nowhere. In fact it helps to rotate players once in a while too.
People get sick, they get injured. Having a substitution system helps better than suddenly coming out with a player out of nowhere. In fact it helps to rotate players once in a while too.
shira
Member
It's the latter, olympic rules for men's hockey state that you can replace a single player due to injury up to 24 hours before the start of the competition. The Canadian olympic team replaced Stamkos -- an officially registered player on the team roster -- about a week before the competition began.
It's hard to justify something like that because you have so many things to consider. Additional costs for a player that only plays occasionally, how much he gets practice, synergy with the current roster, etc.
The only way I'd see it working is to have a separate organization own these players who are only willing to substitute and not play full-time and teams would be able to pick from them. Problem is those who are willing to play, are already pretty hardcore and 100% dedicated. You'd also still encounter the problem of synergy/trust with the team.
FlutterPuffs
Member
There are many amateur leagues in Dota at the moment, or rather, lower level pro leagues. The standins can come from there. Make it a rolling one year contract.
On the additional costs, synergy? Yeah that will be the risk the team has to take, but it's better than going out of competition because one player can't play.
Sigismundo
Member
So I can buy that Veno set as a bundle for $5.80 or I can buy all of the pieces individually for $3.37.
Crazy market kids.
Crazy market kids.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
http://dotabuff.com/matches/743666817
I went 17 - 0 as TA, pretty good if i say so myself. I think i like my phase into drums build.
Also Valve has to let Excalibur stand for Era for TI4, it would be fucking bullshit if they don't see EG, same fucking thing. Icefrog please.
I went 17 - 0 as TA, pretty good if i say so myself. I think i like my phase into drums build.
Also Valve has to let Excalibur stand for Era for TI4, it would be fucking bullshit if they don't see EG, same fucking thing. Icefrog please.
I agree. I could maybe accept the ruling in a vacuum, but it's kind of ridiculous to let one team through and not the other when it's the exact same situation.
This is all speculation. Nobody knows what the rule is, or what the circumstances are, except for the teams and valve (maybe).
Mason was standing in for Fear before Valve announced who would be attending TI. If the rule was: once the teams were announced no roster changes are allowed... and then on that date EG said Ok, it's Mason (and by the way Fear, keep training, if you get healthy we'll try to put you in), then Valve says "no you can't put Fear in and also Fnatic can't take Era out", then they are consistent.... but the problem is NOBODY KNOWS, the rules aren't clear, and they don't communicate with the audience.... and getting the silent treatment from anybody can be infuriating.
people laugh and say it's not a big deal with the whole give diretide shit, but this is a $10 million dollar tournament. At some point, it has to be understood that the lack of communication is a real problem.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Can't wait until they create a Fédération Internationale de Dota Association regulatory body.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
No matter what reason they give for throwing Fnatic out, the overall narrative from the media is going to be that Valve doesn't take mental illnesses seriously, especially because of the EG situation. It's going to paint the entire tournament in a bad light and hurt their reputation, I think right now the smart thing to do is to let this one slide.
A week is better than a day but still seems kinda iffy. I mean I know it puts more work on the other people who'd normally switch with him but you'd think it'd be manageable for any position not Goalie.
I don't follow sports that much so I have no clue about this. When a player is benched because of doctor's orders do team owners actually see doctor's report's/ xrays and whatnot? I'm not sure how much medical privacy professional players have vs how much info they have to share because of their contacts and insurance teams may have on them or whatnot.
I mean would anyone support Valve stating next year that physical injuries or mental conditions resulting in roster changes close to TI must be accompanied by medical documentation? The info wouldn't be shared with the public but valve could more easily stand by their policy and state that " x team provided medical information that confirmed the need for a change OR y team did not provide sufficient documentation to justify a late roster shift and the rules must be upheld."
If nothing else everyone needs to be held to the same fucking ruleset.
If the rules bend again for fnatic and Era doesn't end up ready in time I will never honestly believe that the decision wasn't made for him. I've come to really like Fnatic but I will end up wanting to see them not win because of it. It's petty I know but I'll never be able to trust that a choice wasn't made in the best interest of " fnatic" vs the best interest of Era.
Cyborgmatt
Member
Those are BS rumours spread by Sayuri.
Sigismundo
Member
Man am I looking forward to seeing 4chan during [A] vs. whoever Sayuri manages.
Nothing like queuing at 2am only to get matched vs the same tryhard 5 stack twice in a row
Lost both games purely because a team of friends beats solos 10/10 times
Pretty unfun. Makes me hate the game when its so one sided
Made worse by the fact that both times they ignored rax and fountain camped with a Pudge for 15 minutes
Lost both games purely because a team of friends beats solos 10/10 times
Pretty unfun. Makes me hate the game when its so one sided
Made worse by the fact that both times they ignored rax and fountain camped with a Pudge for 15 minutes
Shorty11857
Member
Well we'd probably know after TI if it was the best interest of Era, I mean Era would hardly stay with Fnatic if they refused to let him play at TI
To be honest Era playing right now seems like a risk to everybody, it's a risk to his health, it's a risk to Valve if something happens to him during the tournament (I mean if they insist Era plays and he has anxiety attacks on stage that'll look really bad), it's a risk to Fnatic because even if he's healthy he's out of practice with his team
For the olympics it seems like they're more flexible because having more teams compete is better than having less teams compete.
Anyways to answer your question about sports injuries; when a player is sidelined all of the directly affected parties, that includes coaches, trainers, and team owners/managers know the extent of the injury. It's one of the benefits/downsides to being a professional athlete; your well-being is literally their business. They generally only withhold that information from the press and fans.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
i've been having a pretty good record with TA mid recently but i think i want to try out other mid heroes, i will probably go tiny next. Actually i kinda want to try out brew mid but i suck ass at micro, guess i'll try out brew in a unranked pub first.
SteveWinwood
Member
I think pa is pretty broken right now.
No, she needs transparency to be truly broken.
against teams with primarily right click damage and dont buy mkb, pfff.
Its really just her getting carried by her team 99% of the time.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
How exactly?
SteveWinwood
Member
Practically free spamable nuke and slow, gap closer, built in attack speed, built in damage, built in tank. Where's the downside?
She can be amazing early, amazing late. She can gank and live solely off kills or she can just afk farm and still do well.
She doesn't have a stun or any sort of sustain which is instantly fixed with a basher and a helm, your first two items post boots.
I am literally the one percent.
same here, suddenly no english speakers in sight and me deciding to not play carry has lead to more disastrous results than usual. Think it's finally time to play witcher.
This.
One stand in slot per team. Main team plays barring emergencies. Zero-point-zero-one tolerance in all future cases.
SteveWinwood
Member
I don't think broken fingers are a very good excuse.
pieatorium
Member
funniik would move to carry if xboct went out standin would go offlane or support with kuro off
Rotate.
Hell, every team that has subbed up to now has rotated to great effect.
Or pick players who aren't Bulldog levels of tunnel vision The standins thing should be bureaucratic, not strategic. At least, not right now. Maybe in the future teams will have 6-8 players being switched around as needed, but the world is not yet ready for this kind of DOTA.
FlutterPuffs
Member
That's a pretty shitty thing to say.
Era has been in high profile, high intensity Dota matches where his occupation, money is on the line and he's only 18.
That's not the type of pressure most kids his age get.
You pick a standin that's flexible in multiple roles. Also most teams seem capable of enough shifting that as long as the standin is flexible the rest of them will manage around them. I'm pretty sure Alliance usually uses smulgullig these days regardless of who is missing.
Erm someone on reddit said LCS had a standin rule/ system, can someone who also follows that confirm or deny?
Honestly the biggest thing is Valve has to create a more formal and regulated system. Since every tournament is used to gauge a team's invitation and fitness for the next TI they should all be operating under the same rules. Pauses, player conduct, standins etc all of this should be stuff all players are aware of and have to abide by regularly.
Could you imagine the uproar if a player got injured/ill at TI4 and we had a dreamleague scenario where a player from a team that was already out got to stand in for them? At the same time imagine the fucking disaster if one of the players in the grand finals gets hit by a car or has a heart attack (please no) and that disqualifies their whole team because there likely isn't a rule in place to deal with this.
While teams are potentially being shady as shit with their roster shuffles under the guise of health reasons Valve has a responsibility to have clear and well managed rules/ systems so that fans and teams alike know the expected outcome when something is amiss
No shit. That's because most kids his age are either not good enough or don't have the opportunity to be in that position. There are plenty of people who would kill to be in his position and there are also many people who are in his position but in a different field, ie. football. If he's not mentally strong enough to handle the stress of the competition, then he should have quit a long time ago.
Fnatic can cry me a river but there's a reason why many professional athletes play on despite injuries. It's a high risk high reward job by nature. Either you learn to deal with the risk or you don't get to reap the rewards at all. And something as simple as anxiety attacks is a really poor excuse when the prize pool is 10mn.
For the record, I don't agree nor encourage playing despite injuries/medical conditions, whether physical or mental (which is just another kind of physical when you get down to it).
Sorry, but this is a really shitty attitude is to have and the reason why kids and adults are slowly killing themselves playing heavily physical sports like football, or MMA. Playing DOTA2 is in another dimension altogether, but the principle remains the same. Players are people, not animals, and I don't even condone cockfighting.
Sorry, but this is a really shitty attitude is to have and the reason why kids and adults are slowly killing themselves playing heavily physical sports like football, or MMA. Playing DOTA2 is in another dimension altogether, but the principle remains the same. Players are people, not animals, and I don't even condone cockfighting.
implicit endorsement of michael vick confirmed for shame haly
Exactly. If you think anxiety is a poor excuse you're probably not very familiar with serious anxiety. It's not just "ooh I'm really nervous about playing."
I'm sure those people who have made it in their fields would feel sorry for you when they head back to their mansions after practice while you struggle to keep up with rent.
If it's serious enough then don't play. Why did he even play in Starladder when he skipped the previous one? They should have just replaced him as soon as he was unfit. They clearly had reasons to stand by him and if he can't play in TI4 on the basis of health, why should Valve give them a free pass? Yes, I know the precedent had been set with Fear but I disagree with that decision anyway. Valve clearly wants to make this a top tier professional esports. But bending over just because teams can't get their shit in order is not helping.
call_kotaku
Member
Are there enough top-tier players in the DOTA community to have a reliable six man for every team at the international? If someone participated in the qualifiers but didn't get through, are they allowed to join as a sub for an invited/qualified team at the actual event?
There will definitely be a system next year, but I can see the difficulty in allowing these things on a case by case basis
There will definitely be a system next year, but I can see the difficulty in allowing these things on a case by case basis
FlutterPuffs
Member
You're kidding me. You really think it's like something he can just force through?
Psychological problems are not that easy to heal. Saying 'he should deal with it' is probably the most inane response you can give about the issue.
I could see it working if there's a tier based Dota tournament system, with 2 divisions for pro and amateurs. Pro teams in the 1st division can get a player to be as their 'reserve' while they still play for their own 2nd division team. This could also help bring the spotlight to upcoming players.
Of course creating and managing this system is a whole other complicated matter, but I really think it can work.
It's always tricky with mental illnesses because they run on a gradient. A broken leg is pretty much a broken leg, though the severity might differ, there's an even bigger difference between broken and unbroken. It's harder to tell with something as vague as "anxiety", and I prefer to give Era the benefit of the doubt.
Okay. Ignored.
Because you clearly know more about his condition than I do.
How do you know Fnatic isn't lying and is just trying to replace him with a better player? $10mn is at stake here. I wouldn't rule that out.
Actually, given the stakes here, no one should be given the benefit of the doubt.
Severe anxiety has nothing simple about it and if Era is truly suffering all the willpower in the world will not have him able to play until the day he can get ready to go out or think of boarding a plane/train to travel without shaking or starting to feel ill. I worry more that he has readied himself to face the challenge yet again and may yet be denied if fnatic think xcalibur is the safer bet.
Professional athletes certainly can and have performed injured before. Elvis stojko skated in the 98 olympics with a groin injury he could not take painkillers for, for fear of failing a drug test due to them. He had to be helped off the ice at the end of his performance and could not skate out to the medal ceremony for his silver medal but had to walk it was so bad. A determined enough athlete can sometimes temporarily bypass pain when they feel the situation warrants it but not everyone is capable of that.
Hell even in e-sports players have played while obviously injured until surgery was necessary. It's not necessarily a good thing but it is doable if they wish it.
However the burden still falls on Valve and other tournament organizers to have a system in place to deal with the issue of players who cannot play due to some form of injury, illness or Visa issues. The higher prize pools get the more important it is that someone take charge and make sure teams and players are being honest and fair while participating in the various leagues/tournaments.
FlutterPuffs
Member
If you're saying I empathise with him for having panic/anxiety attacks, yes. It's not an easy thing even for me to manage and I'm 29 years old.
10 million is on the line but remember Valve can ask for medical records and reports from Fnatic's doctor and have it checked with their own medical experts. That's what they do in the EPL so why not?
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