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[Hylian7]

Tusk is useless

I think the recent buffs to him are definitely steps in the right direction. He's been a pub terror every time I've played him, but they have been unranked games and it basically consisted of me being super fed, walking around the map and PAUNCHING people usually 1-2 shotting them.

That said, I kind of think maybe they should do something like give punch a small cleave or slow radius perhaps?

 

[twobear]

Huskar is susceptible to physical damage, which is very popular in the current meta(Jugg, Troll, Lycan, SF, Bristle, etc), I don't know if he needs a big buff but he's not viable in 99% of lineups. Your opponent needs to draft a mostly magic damage lineup for it to be viable, and even then he's not that good. Again, talking competitive, literally anything can work in pubs.

Has magic damage ever been very popular? The fact that it doesn't scale very well in my mind makes it pretty poor compared to physical but I am bad at dota.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Well yeah, his point was that it's not that great to get lvl 2 and lvl 3 ult, which is true. I don't think the mana cost should increase, at least not by that much. 50>60>70 would be better.

Has magic damage ever been very popular? The fact that it doesn't scale very well in my mind makes it pretty poor compared to physical but I am bad at dota.

It's been more popular than it is now. Carries have almost always been physical damage dealers, but the damage output of teams used to be more balanced IIRC.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Well yeah, his point was that it's not that great to get lvl 2 and lvl 3 ult, which is true. I don't think the mana cost should increase, at least not by that much. 50>60>70 would be better.

by the time youre 16 youre not going to be having a lot of mana problems unless you do stupid shit like refresher or something or use your skills poorly

 

[Chris R]

Did you have enough mana for Jump + MoM + Chrono + Chrono?

I had 975 mana when I got the refresher. The combo was jump + Chrono + MoM + BKB, rekt whoever we caught out then jump back out and pop the refresher. With CM Aura I'd be ready for another jump chrono combo really quick.

 

[Anbokr]

Has magic damage ever been very popular? The fact that it doesn't scale very well in my mind makes it pretty poor compared to physical but I am bad at dota.

I mean it's pretty popular as it is. The problem with Huskar is you just need 1 physical damage dealer (aka your carry), nukes will still bring him low (not to mention magic disables still rekt him), and pure damage/spell-immunity piercing damage has been given out like candy in recent patches.

That being said, the hero is like one or two small buffs away from being good/strong IMO. Will be interesting to see the route icefrog takes: MS? Life break cast range? Cast times? Lil more armor/agi? Inner vitality?

I personally want to see him either get some more MS or gain some extra range on lifebreak (along with a cast point of 0.01) .

For 6.84 though, I just want to see carry Alch return. He's one of my favorite carries to play but he's undeniably bad right now. Needs to itemize for far too many deficiencies and he doesn't have the slots nor the time. Absolutely needs health, needs armor, needs attack speed, and needs mobility/initiation (blink/sb). Too many "required" items to be effective.

 

[DrPizza]

Alchemist should be given an Aghs upgrade that does nothing... except be stackable. Each Aghs he buys should give him all the stats and HP/mana. And he should be able to buy as many as he has gold for.

Alchemist can farm well. His ult has good uptime, and with his farm, he can dish out a ton of damage. His problem is his garbage stats gain; ever since the +hp of the ult was removed, he just got too squishy, too fast. The regen can't keep up.

Each Aghs gives 390 hp and 1.4 armour. His old +hp was 250/500/750, so two aghs brings him up to the tankiness he used to have. When run as a core, farming has never been his problem, so putting 8400 gold into essentially stats items shouldn't be too big a hardship.

 

[bbd23]

Ice fraud should bring back the gambler

 

[Anbokr]

Alchemist should be given an Aghs upgrade that does nothing... except be stackable. Each Aghs he buys should give him all the stats and HP/mana. And he should be able to buy as many as he has gold for.

That's an interesting idea. I think I'd like it more if Alch just "consumed" the aghs and gained the stats right off the item, without it actually occupying a slot. He can consume as many as he can farm.

 

[twobear]

The problem with balancing Huskar is that if you make him any better in the early game he will be even more of a low-MMR pub stomper

I mean that obviously depends on how much you care about the bottom 30% of players having a fun game vs. a hero being viable in higher level play

 

[Anbokr]

The problem with balancing Huskar is that if you make him any better in the early game he will be even more of a low-MMR pub stomper

I mean that obviously depends on how much you care about the bottom 30% of players having a fun game vs. a hero being viable in higher level play

Didn't stop icefrog from turning sniper into an abomination of balance.

 

[twobear]

Didn't stop icefrog from turning sniper into an abomination of balance.

True, snipaids is truly awful, but if anything at low level play Huskar is even worse. He can just dive straight past your t1 over and over again, zone you out totally, etc. etc. if you don't know how to deal with him

 

[kvk1]

 

[1.09]

anbokr talking about balance when all he picks is lycan smh

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Didn't stop icefrog from turning sniper into an abomination of balance.

And nerfing SB even though he was mostly a low level pub stomper.

A ridiculous one at that.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Quick buff to husky: instead of giving 14/16/18/20 ias per stack it give 5/6/7/8 agility per stack (basically giving you 1.1 armor per stack at level 4). UHEUEUHEUHEUHEUEHU

 

[Shuggananas]

Alchemist should be given an Aghs upgrade that does nothing... except be stackable. Each Aghs he buys should give him all the stats and HP/mana. And he should be able to buy as many as he has gold for.

Alchemist can farm well. His ult has good uptime, and with his farm, he can dish out a ton of damage. His problem is his garbage stats gain; ever since the +hp of the ult was removed, he just got too squishy, too fast. The regen can't keep up.

Each Aghs gives 390 hp and 1.4 armour. His old +hp was 250/500/750, so two aghs brings him up to the tankiness he used to have. When run as a core, farming has never been his problem, so putting 8400 gold into essentially stats items shouldn't be too big a hardship.

Aghs is a garbage "value" item though. Maybe the worst of all. So that's a pretty bad upgrade.
You want a funny aghs upgrade ? Makes buyback free, and lowers buyback cooldown (by like a minute)
The point of carry alch is not getting 10 slotted, it's having and advance in farm and then using that to win the game. Like antimage for example

Sure he's also a 6slot monster (lmao 1.0 BAT), but that's a bonus

 

[Anbokr]

But in all seriousness, most of these heroes that we think are low tier pubstompers on a hunch/feel turn out not to be. I don't know if dotabuff can still sort winrates by bracket (low/mid/high), but that dota metric guy used to analyze winrates by bracket and there really wasn't that big of a difference.

Obviously low skill floor high skill cap heroes had slightly higher winrates in very high, and the opposite was true for lower tier--but the differences weren't usually that significant. The problem was actually reversed--certain heroes were too bad in lower tiers but too good at higher tiers (i.e. 6.80 Lycan who had like ~40% win in low tier and ~62% win in high tier) rather than the other way around.

The point of carry alch is not getting 10 slotted, it's having and advance in farm and then using that to win the game. Like antimage for example

Well that's why that aghs idea would fundamentally change the way we think about and play Alch. He'll have the potential to go much further into the late game and could be a contender for one of the hardest late game carries despite his awful early game.

I asked bananaslamjamma on his stream what he thought the problem with Alch was, and he said he thinks the hero has too small a window to be effective. He's not that effective late nor is he effective early. He has like a 10 minute period in the midgame where he can peak but you better pray you don't die, giving the other team a billion gold and xp and essentially destroying that window entirely. Something like the aghs idea alleviates this by widening his window of effectiveness and making him a legitimate late game threat again.

 

[twobear]

But in all seriousness, most of these heroes that we think are low tier pubstompers on a hunch/feel turn out not to be. I don't know if dotabuff can still sort winrates by bracket (low/mid/high), but that dota metric guy used to analyze winrates by bracket and there really wasn't that big of a difference.

Obviously low skill floor high skill cap heroes had slightly higher winrates in very high, and the opposite was true for lower tier--but the differences weren't usually that significant. The problem was actually reversed--certain heroes were too bad in lower tiers but too good at higher tiers (i.e. 6.80 Lycan who had like ~40% win in low tier and ~62% win in high tier) rather than the other way around.

Shrug, speaking from my experience, Huskar generally completely annihilates me. I have absolutely no idea how to deal with him in lane except play so safely that I'm practically zoning myself out in my attempts to avoid him zoning me out.

 

[Shuggananas]

Outnumber and outdamage him
Going 1v1 vs husk is not a good choice.

So either 2v1 mid or 3v1 or 3v2 in lane. Have heroes with good auto attack range and/or damage, and some control, slows are enough
He can't harass more than 1 hero efficiently

 

[DrPizza]

That's an interesting idea. I think I'd like it more if Alch just "consumed" the aghs and gained the stats right off the item, without it actually occupying a slot. He can consume as many as he can farm.

I thought about consuming it entirely, but I think that might be a little too strong, as it means he's free to go pure damage items without having to care even slightly about a survivability slot. Everyone else at least has to use one slot on a Satanic or Heart.

Still, it'd be pretty awesome to have travels-abyssal-MKB-mjollnir-butterfly-daedalus after eating 3 or 4 Aghs. The idea of the ogre being so brutish that he just eats the sceptre each time you buy it is fun.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Shrug, speaking from my experience, Huskar generally completely annihilates me. I have absolutely no idea how to deal with him in lane except play so safely that I'm practically zoning myself out in my attempts to avoid him zoning me out.

Trade at level 1 if he went spear, and kill him, he has shit armor and his dot damage him much faster than it does you. Even if it kill you, it will kill him first so you'll get FB and exp. Leave the lane and go roam on level 3 onward, he doesn't do much with farm and sucks in most teamfights, especially before 6 and a couple of crucial items he has to farm for (Mek and Phase).

 

[Anbokr]

I thought about consuming it entirely, but I think that might be a little too strong, as it means he's free to go pure damage items without having to care even slightly about a survivability slot. Everyone else at least has to use one slot on a Satanic or Heart.

Still, it'd be pretty awesome to have travels-abyssal-MKB-mjollnir-butterfly-daedalus after eating 3 or 4 Aghs. The idea of the ogre being so brutish that he just eats the sceptre each time you buy it is fun.

If it's too strong maybe make it something like 75% of the stats, but I suspect it won't be broken at 100% simply because Alch still has to actually farm the item multiple times first lol. He still needs to farm his attack speed/armor/damage (mjol/ac/abyssal), then he's free to go full aghs.

So he's still going to be relatively weak early and you can deal with him still in the midgame. But now there's a big danger to letting him completely free farm (like it was in the past), you have to actually exploit his weaknesses and aggro/dual offlane and ganks him rather than just completely ignore him like you can currently.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

And nerfing SB even though he was mostly a low level pub stomper.

A ridiculous one at that.

SB was at 60% winrate in the very high bracket as well. That dude stomped any kind of pubs.

 

[twobear]

Trade at level 1 if he went spear, and kill him, he has shit armor and his dot damage him much faster than it does you. Even if it kill you, it will kill him first so you'll get FB and exp. Leave the lane and go roam on level 3 onward, he doesn't do much with farm and sucks in most teamfights, especially before 6 and a couple of crucial items he has to farm for (Mek and Phase).

I'll try his next time I fight him but my feeling is that I've tried to trade with him before and just been melted.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

SB was at 60% winrate in the very high bracket as well. That dude stomped any kind of pubs.

Really? I remember tons of people here saying it was just noobs who didn't know how to deal with him get owned(tbf I was a huge noob and had no idea what I was doing), so I assumed he wasn't that big of a factor in higher brackets.

Edit: S4 is actually the biggest tryhard in pubs, he communicates like it's a pro match.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Really? I remember tons of people here saying it was just noobs who didn't know how to deal with him get owned(tbf I was a huge noob and had no idea what I was doing), so I assumed he wasn't that big of a factor in higher brackets.

I remember that as well. Wasn't the case. SB was unpopular among pros (although Kaipi pinged him every once in a while if I remember correctly) and stomped everyone else. Picking him basically meant free map control.

Also, I fucking tune off any streamer that plays Lich or Dazzle. I literally can't take the boredom.

 

[Acinixys]

Has magic damage ever been very popular? The fact that it doesn't scale very well in my mind makes it pretty poor compared to physical but I am bad at dota.

Well yeah, his point was that it's not that great to get lvl 2 and lvl 3 ult, which is true. I don't think the mana cost should increase, at least not by that much. 50>60>70 would be better.


It's been more popular than it is now. Carries have almost always been physical damage dealers, but the damage output of teams used to be more balanced IIRC.

Magic/Int based heros have become MUCH stronger since BKB was nerfed to stay at 5 secs through rebuys

I think its played a big part in picks and bans since it was implemented but its been a slow curve so no one has really noticed

 

[inkls]

Really? I remember tons of people here saying it was just noobs who didn't know how to deal with him get owned(tbf I was a huge noob and had no idea what I was doing), so I assumed he wasn't that big of a factor in higher brackets.

Edit: S4 is actually the biggest tryhard in pubs, he communicates like it's a pro match.

they said that about dp too. Meanwhile at ti4 ;_;

 

[DrPizza]

If it's too strong maybe make it something like 75% of the stats, but I suspect it won't be broken at 100% simply because Alch still has to actually farm the item multiple times first lol. He still needs to farm his attack speed/armor/damage (mjol/ac/abyssal), then he's free to go full aghs.

So he's still going to be relatively weak early and you can deal with him still in the midgame. But now there's a big danger to letting him completely free farm (like it was in the past), you have to actually exploit his weaknesses and aggro/dual offlane and ganks him rather than just completely ignore him like you can currently.

Maybe so. He'd certainly be hungry for items; I'm not sure how best you'd even build him. All of the farming items (Midas, BF, Radiance) feel viable on the hero (and Radiance is especially good if he's tanky), but mjollnir into basher can potentially fight earlire.

I would still prefer something like this (to make him a hard carry) than trying to buff him as a support. Support Alc is just bleh. The old-style "Alchemist is off the map farming the jungle and he's a ticking timebomb" is what I'd like to have back.

 

[Anbokr]

Maybe so. He'd certainly be hungry for items; I'm not sure how best you'd even build him. All of the farming items (Midas, BF, Radiance) feel viable on the hero (and Radiance is especially good if he's tanky), but mjollnir into basher can potentially fight earlire.

I would still prefer something like this (to make him a hard carry) than trying to buff him as a support. Support Alc is just bleh. The old-style "Alchemist is off the map farming the jungle and he's a ticking timebomb" is what I'd like to have back.

I'd probably end up going something like Midas -> treads -> maelstrom -> mjol/ac/abyssal (order depends on the game) -> aghs aghs aghs with travels somwhere in between and leaving 1 slot open for MKB or butterfly

And 100% agree with your latter sentiment, fuck support Alch. I want carry Alch back, and I want that feeling of panic back when your team puts 0 pressure on Alch. Right now there's little to no threat in allowing Alch to completely free farm and that's just stupid.

 

[Shuggananas]

Radiance is pretty shit on anything that isn't spectre/naga/tb

Midas/phase/maelstrom then go a for tanky items and you're all good. Skipping midas is also good.

edit : yeah ok lone druid too, I always forget about him

 

[inkls]

I'd probably end up going something like Midas -> treads -> maelstrom -> mjol/ac/abyssal (order depends on the game) -> aghs aghs aghs with travels somwhere in between and leaving 1 slot open for MKB or butterfly

And 100% agree with your latter sentiment, fuck support Alch. I want carry Alch back, and I want that feeling of panic back when your team puts 0 pressure on Alch. Right now there's little to no threat in allowing Alch to completely free farm and that's just stupid.

My feeling exactly. You feel dread when an AM's freefarming. You feel surprised if you see an alch exiting the jungle and not instantly dying.

Radiance is pretty shit on anything that isn't spectre/naga/tb

Midas/phase/maelstrom then go a for tanky items and you're all good.

Hmm lone druid radiance?

 

[SteveWinwood]

My feeling exactly. You feel dread when an AM's freefarming. You feel surprised if you see an alch exiting the jungle and not instantly dying.



Hmm lone druid radiance?

i havent seen it in a while

pretty sure when he got played by fear and stuff it was like the basher ac stuff right?

 

[twobear]

I always forget about him

you mean just like everyone else

 

[inkls]

i havent seen it in a while

pretty sure when he got played by fear and stuff it was like the basher ac stuff right?

Lone druid is barely picked tbh, so im not sure if thats the best data. Might also be accounted for player personal preference?

I just know the basher + mael one is the alternative build if you cant farm radiance fast enough.

you mean just like everyone else

you monster

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Hmm lone druid radiance?

Everything is shit on Sylla.

Seriously though, seems like even Bulldog gets Maelstrom/Basher over Radiance now. I'd say maybe Radiance needs a buff but nobody wants to see more Naga.

 

[inkls]

Everything is shit on Sylla.

Seriously though, seems like even Bulldog gets Maelstrom/Basher over Radiance now. I'd say maybe Radiance needs a buff but nobody wants to see more Naga.

if you watch his recent games thats not true at all.

Even in his ld guide he states he prefers the radiance build

 

[Anbokr]

Everything is shit on Sylla.

Seriously though, seems like even Bulldog gets Maelstrom/Basher over Radiance now. I'd say maybe Radiance needs a buff but nobody wants to see more Naga.

eh naga has pretty much all but disappeared and he can just buff the +damage on it to make the item just a tad more appealing to more heroes without affecting Naga/Spectre.

 

[TUSR]

Inkls doto with me tonight. You can safe lane storm.

 

[DrPizza]

Radiance is pretty shit on anything that isn't spectre/naga/tb

Midas/phase/maelstrom then go a for tanky items and you're all good. Skipping midas is also good.

edit : yeah ok lone druid too, I always forget about him

idk, given that the concept here is that Alc would be able to get very tanky, Radiance IMO has good synergy. It makes things annoying for the other team; you normally want to kill the squishy heroes first, but if you have a big fat ogre in the middle doing a constant 50dps to everyone in the fight, you tend to want to focus him too. Otherwise, your supports just die by virtue of going to the teamfight.

 

[manfestival]

No, inkls is gonna doto with me and hes gonna mid storm

 

[twobear]

inkls play doto with me, i'll let you play storm anwhere you want and i'll even let you steal all the kills without complaining about it

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

if you watch his recent games thats not true at all.

Even in his ld guide he states he prefers the radiance build

Eh? Maybe so, I've seen two games he's played today and yesterday in which he's gone a different route, but maybe he was trying something different.

 

[Tieske]

And 100% agree with your latter sentiment, fuck support Alch. I want carry Alch back, and I want that feeling of panic back when your team puts 0 pressure on Alch. Right now there's little to no threat in allowing Alch to completely free farm and that's just stupid.

One thing that the hero still has going for him is that he's not terrible in any role, hope that they buff him with that in mind

Id like to play him offlane more, try get some early lvls, farm jungle if lane sucks, gank with spray concoction combo. Love dumb heros like that

I remember that as well. Wasn't the case. SB was unpopular among pros (although Kaipi pinged him every once in a while if I remember correctly) and stomped everyone else. Picking him basically meant free map control.

If I remember correctly, that hero had like 80 picks (or it was pick/bans) the month he got nerfed. Primarily old Liquid picked him alot (best ixmike hero Kappa) but he was starting to get some love by other teams I think before they shot him down completely
he might even be a better hero now then he was then

he's more fun anyhow

 

[Drkirby]

eh naga has pretty much all but disappeared and he can just buff the +damage on it to make the item just a tad more appealing to more heroes without affecting Naga/Spectre.

I'd like to see a large AoE, maybe boost it to 800.

 

[Emerson]

Radiance is still fine on LD as long as you get it really early which has always been the case. Really though the hero just sucks ass currently so it doesn't make a big difference what you do.

 

[Shuggananas]

Give radiance an active effect
Burn becomes pure and pierces magic immunity for 10s
100 seconds cooldown

Small buff, doesn't affect cancer naga too much

 

[Wok]

Start the draft of Ability Draft.

Choose to start with a BKB and a Blink Dagger on Enigma.

Build Refresher and Aghanim Scepter.

Profit.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Bulldog, S4, EGM stack. Bulldog randoms Sylla, S4 picks Puck.

How is this fair.