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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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S

Skeeter49

Member
Oh, so we still have no clue what 110 will be then.

The Genki Dama still confuses me. Is Goku using it on Jiren or Ribrianne,
who is giving him the energy, and who is protecting Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama?

Feels so weird to do in Genki Dama in a fight like this.
 
H

HeroR

Member
ArchedThunder said:
When he said that he turned on Kaioken, he was talking about that.
Every use of Kaioken since Hit has just been regular Kaioken because X10 fucked him up.
Click to expand...

That was over a year ago and Goku can obviously handled the Kaioken easily. Remember, Goku went from nearly destroying his body with a x3 Kaioken in the Saiyan Saga to being able to do up to 10x with no problem in just days of training.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
Skeeter49 said:
I wonder if they have something in the pipeline with Tien.

With Tien being the most useless character in U7, even Krillin took more people out than him and at this rate, I think Piccolo's the only one still under Tien in wins, I could see this being a turning point for him where he realizes he needs to get his shit together.
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Nah, it was just bad writing. In-universe, he was even praised by Beerus, rather than berated, and the narrator described that sniper as a threat to the team that was stopped thanks to Tenshinhan's efforts. So, he wasn't supposed to look bad and they're aren't building him up to prove himself.

Toei just had to show him contributing to something in the tournament even though none of their staff apparently had interest in his character, so we got it in a very sloppy way. Maybe the reaction to this episode will convince them to make up for it in the future, but I doubt it, considering how people already complained about his two previous ones and yet they gave this episode to a new and unproven member of the writing staff (who didn't even seem to be interested in Tenshinhan himself, considering his lack of screentime and character moments even here).
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
Nah, it was just bad writing. In-universe, he was even praised by Beerus, rather than berated, and the narrator described that sniper as a threat to the team that was stopped thanks to Tenshinhan's efforts. So, he wasn't supposed to look bad and they're aren't building him up to prove himself.

Toei just had to show him contributing to something in the tournament even though none of their staff apparently had interest in his character, so we got it in a very sloppy way. Maybe the reaction to this episode will convince them to make up for it in the future, but I doubt it, considering how people already complained about his two previous ones and yet they gave this episode to a new and unproven member of the writing staff (who didn't even seem to be interested in Tenshinhan himself, considering his lack of screentime and character moments even here).
Click to expand...


The scripts are written months ahead of time and are not changed because some people complained online. The writer in question isn't 'unproven' since they have worked on other anime long before Super. This isn't some newbie they got stay out of college or something.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
I do think the beginning of the episode was alright, I liked Piccolo and Gohan trying to outsmart the sniper, and the sniper while not being incredibly intelligent, still smart enough not to fall for Gohan's and Piccolo's ways of outsmarting him.

I think this would have been better without Goku and Vegeta. Have Gohan and Piccolo attack the pink guy while Tien goes for the other guy.

NeonZ said:
He's unproven as a part of Super's writing team. He joined the staff in the beginning of the tournament and his previous episode was fairly problematic too (the one with the Pride Trooper eliminations).

And they clearly react to feedback regarding what they've done throughout the show, although in this case even if there had been more time I doubt the reaction would be big enough to cause any changes though, considering Tenshinhan's relative lack of popularity in the first place.
Click to expand...
Meh, 101 is my favorite episode of this arc.
Or second favorite, gotta give Roshi love.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
HeroR said:
The scripts are written months ahead of time and are not changed because some people complained online. The writer in question isn't 'unproven' since they have worked on other anime long before Super. This isn't some newbie they got stay out of college or something.
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He's unproven as a part of Super's writing team. That's what I said, nothing about him being a new writer. He joined the staff in the beginning of the tournament and his previous episode was fairly problematic too (the one with the Pride Trooper eliminations).

And they clearly react to feedback regarding what they've done throughout the show, although in this case even if there had been more time I doubt the reaction would be big enough to cause any changes though, considering Tenshinhan's relative lack of popularity in the first place.
 
E

ElFly

Member
Magwik said:
Shit I had it wrong.
Dragon Ball Super |OT8| No episodes on 9/10 + 10/1, Please wait for Jiren to be cool


Dragon Ball Super |OT8| Please wait for Jiren to be cool; no episode 9/10+10/1
Click to expand...

then the dub followers come in to complain that we spoiled Jiren not being cool
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
He's unproven as a part of Super's writing team. He joined the staff in the beginning of the tournament and his previous episode was fairly problematic too (the one with the Pride Trooper eliminations).

And they clearly react to feedback regarding what they've done throughout the show, although in this case even if there had been more time I doubt the reaction would be big enough to cause any changes though, considering Tenshinhan's relative lack of popularity in the first place.
Click to expand...

So? He still isn't a newbie writer and Dragon Ball isn't the most complicated show to write. And only a few people found his writer 'problematic', especially if those five Pride Troopers were going to be out no matter how writes it. Do you really think they decide who goes out when, or wouldn't that fall to the director.

And what feedback do you have proof of that they reacted to? Especially, again, these scripts are written months ahead of time and are not changed on a fly to suit internet complaints.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
HeroR said:
So? He still isn't a newbie writer and Dragon Ball isn't the most complicated show to write. And only a few people found his writer 'problematic', especially if those five Pride Troopers were going to be out no matter how writes it. Do you really think they decide who goes out when, or wouldn't that fall to the director.
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It's still not guaranteed that he'll work well with a new team just because he wrote before. And, looking at some of his previous works (like Keroro movie 5) he has several commercial failures on his name. Anyway, I'm not talking about the elimination of the Pride Trooper, but how the whole incident was handled, from Goku struggling with one guy 18 lift easily to the odd lines about "conquering planets" to them acting like cheap villains throughout the episode. Even the Caulifla/Kale scene was messed up by Caulifla holding back her SSJ for no reason until she was really beaten up.

And what feedback do you have proof of that they reacted to? Especially, again, these scripts are written months ahead of time and are not changed on a fly to suit internet complaints.
Click to expand...

This isn't an artistic job. They're making this to entertain audiences. I don't have "proof" that they reacted to feedback, but it's obvious that they did several times already, and you should know it.
 
E

ElFly

Member
the main reaction was improving the animation, but even Toriyama himself complained

please come up with some kind of receipts for other specific reactions or just drop it
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
This is kind of odd since I've seen this mentioned as a matter of fact in these threads several times, like regarding Gohan or the focus on a larger cast in this arc. Still if this is suddenly questionable, it's pointless to debate it since I can't "prove" anything, and it was a pretty irrelevant part of my post anyway.
 
P

Preble

Member
Everytime someone brings up Gohanks, all I can think of is this lol

Fs8CluO.png
 
E

ElFly

Member
the Gohan thing has been some kind of long arc so I doubt it was a reaction

first they made a point of him being weak in the resurrection f arc, when the movie didn't go that way IIRC?

then he asked to be trained

then he skipped the tourney

then he was seen buffer in the trunks arc

then champa said 'hey you are p good'

and finally he was shown as recovered

so at no point the series was not doing something with Gohan (even if it was something the Gohan fans disliked), it was just a super slow burn. obviously the fans didn't go "hey you should make Gohan super weak in the resurrection f adaptation" so the rest must have followed logically
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
ElFly said:
then he was seen buffer in the trunks arc
Click to expand...

You're skipping the part where he got an episode in the beginning of the Trunks arc where it was said that he had distanced himself from martial arts and Trunks said he couldn't feel the power Gohan had before in him. Only that very final shot where he was suddenly looking similar to Ultimate Gohan suggested any kind of training, but even so it's inconsistent with what we got in this arc (which claimed he hadn't been Ultimate since Buu).
 
F

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
ElFly said:
the Gohan thing has been some kind of long arc so I doubt it was a reaction

first they made a point of him being weak in the resurrection f arc, when the movie didn't go that way IIRC?

then he asked to be trained

then he skipped the tourney

then he was seen buffer in the trunks arc

then champa said 'hey you are p good'

and finally he was shown as recovered

so at no point the series was not doing something with Gohan (even if it was something the Gohan fans disliked), it was just a super slow burn. obviously the fans didn't go "hey you should make Gohan super weak in the resurrection f adaptation" so the rest must have followed logically
Click to expand...
Yup, granted there has been years of fan feedback in terms of gohan so that most def had something to do with it, but that was decided long ago and anyone who was paying attention could tell that they were building gohan back up.
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
It's still not guaranteed that he'll work well with a new team just because he wrote before. And, looking at some of his previous works (like Keroro movie 5) he has several commercial failures on his name. Anyway, I'm not talking about the elimination of the Pride Trooper, but how the whole incident was handled, from Goku struggling with one guy 18 lift easily to the odd lines about "conquering planets" to them acting like cheap villains throughout the episode. Even the Caulifla/Kale scene was messed up by Caulifla holding back her SSJ for no reason until she was really beaten up.



This isn't an artistic job. They're making this to entertain audiences. I don't have "proof" that they reacted to feedback, but it's obvious that they did several times already, and you should know it.
Click to expand...

Again, Dragon Ball isn't a complicated show to write and they're under the control of a director. So it isn't like they're just doing their own thing with no guidance. And what does having several 'commercial failure' have to do with their writing? What the writing bad in those things?

So basically 'power scaling'. Also, I think you and others put way too much stack in that 'conquer' line and I don't see how the Pride Troopers were acting as 'villains' when they themselves said that they wouldn't normally used such tactics, but given the situation they made exceptions.

So no proof means you're talking out of your butt.
 
E

ElFly

Member
NeonZ said:
You're skipping the part where he got an episode in the beginning of the Trunks arc where it was said that he had distanced himself from martial arts and Trunks said he couldn't feel the power Gohan had before in him. Only that very final shot where he was suddenly looking similar to Ultimate Gohan suggested any kind of training, but even so it's inconsistent with what we got in this arc (which claimed he hadn't been Ultimate since Buu).
Click to expand...

I dunno if it was planned that meticulously but obvs the main impulse was to keep Gohan out of action for a while, but at the same time giving some hope to the fans. Obviously the "keep Gohan out of Trunks' arc" impulse was stronger than "Gohan should be shown training and recovering" impulse, particularly since it is up in the air if Toriyama had decided to bring Gohan back the very next big arc

I think people read too much on the bang. obviously only in this last arc Mystic became a transformation and thus they removed his bang from his "base" form to distinguish it from Mystic

before this arc the bang did not meant much while not Super Saiyan

foxuzamaki said:
Yup, granted there has been years of fan feedback in terms of gohan so that most def had something to do with it, but that was decided long ago and anyone who was paying attention could tell that they were building gohan back up.
Click to expand...

I mean, sure, maybe there was a reaction to Gohan not being so prominent in the two last DBZ movies, and instead they decided to have Super have a long arc of Gohan going way weaker and then recover, but that's v different to the producers reacting to fans' opinions and influencing specific writers of specific episodes
 
H

HeroR

Member
ElFly said:
the main reaction was improving the animation, but even Toriyama himself complained

please come up with some kind of receipts for other specific reactions or just drop it
Click to expand...

We only know that Toriyama complained about Super, but we don't know what the complaints were. Fans just assumed it was the animation.

Besides, the animation of Super was going to improved regardless of complaints since it wasn't up to normal standards to begin with.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
NeonZ said:
It's still not guaranteed that he'll work well with a new team just because he wrote before. And, looking at some of his previous works (like Keroro movie 5) he has several commercial failures on his name. Anyway, I'm not talking about the elimination of the Pride Trooper, but how the whole incident was handled, from Goku struggling with one guy 18 lift easily to the odd lines about "conquering planets" to them acting like cheap villains throughout the episode. Even the Caulifla/Kale scene was messed up by Caulifla holding back her SSJ for no reason until she was really beaten up.



This isn't an artistic job. They're making this to entertain audiences. I don't have "proof" that they reacted to feedback, but it's obvious that they did several times already, and you should know it.
Click to expand...

Holding back SSJ has been a problem this whole arc to be fair.

18 lifting up someone Goku's having trouble with in base isn't something I'd be worried about, especially when nothing suggested Goku was giving his all.

Given the route Toppo and Jiren went in 104, is it really out of character for the other Pride Troopers to act like villains?

Almost every issue people have with 101 has happened again and again in almost every episode.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
HeroR said:
Again, Dragon Ball isn't a complicated show to write and they're under the control of a director. So it isn't like they're just doing their own thing with no guidance. And what does having several 'commercial failure' have to do with their writing? What the writing bad in those things?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it was. The one objective example I can give in this case is exactly Keroro Movie 5, which had drastically lower numbers compared to the previous Keroro movies and resulted in the original manga author (who had given the basis of the movie's plot and characters) redoing the movie's plot years later in the manga itself since a lot of his material was thrown away for something that clearly wasn't good.

So basically 'power scaling'.
Click to expand...

No. Power scaling, general characterization and narrative structure. It was a complete mess and I mentioned multiple examples there. I don't see why you're just highlighting power scale.

Also, I think you and others put way too much stack in that 'conquer' line and I don't see how the Pride Troopers were acting as 'villains' when they themselves said that they wouldn't normally used such tactics, but given the situation they made exceptions.
Click to expand...

He even gave the female Pride Trooper a stereotypical female villain laugh. It's not about them using dirty tactics, it's their general attitude.

So no proof means you're talking out of your butt.
Click to expand...

You haven't given me proof of the opposite either though. Like I said above, I only mentioned it because I thought it was an accepted truth here, I didn't mean to argue about that.

Skeeter49 said:
Holding back SSJ has been a problem this whole arc to be fair.
Click to expand...

The issue is that in that case it actually resulted in her getting plot relevant damage that has lasted for several episodes now. So, even the "conserving stamina" excuse doesn't work.

18 lifting up someone Goku's having trouble with in base isn't something I'd be worried about, especially when nothing suggested Goku was giving his all.

Given the route Toppo and Jiren went in 104, is it really out of character for the other Pride Troopers to act like villains?
Click to expand...

Taking the situation more seriously is very different from what the Pride Troopers were doing there.
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
No. Power scaling, general characterization and narrative structure.



He even gave the female Pride Trooper a stereotypical female villain laugh. It's not about them using dirty tactics, it's their general attitude.



You haven't given me proof of the opposite either though. Like I said above, I only mentioned it because I thought it was an accepted truth here, I didn't mean to argue about that.
Click to expand...

Most of your complaints are power scaling. Not to mention, Goku got weighted down from the back, while 18 picked the guy up when he landed on her and we don't even know if he was using the same weight.

Really, 'she laughs evilly'. Now you're just nitpicking. Dypso acted like a smug speedster and that was written by someone's else. Maybe the Pride Troopers just act this way and it has nothing to do with the 'writer'.

It doesn't work like that. You're the one who said that Toei reacted to fan feedback in the past, so it's up to you to bring proof since you're the one who made the statement. It shouldn't be up to me to disproved something you haven't even proven.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
HeroR said:
Most of your complaints are power scaling. Not to mention, Goku got weighted down from the back, while 18 picked the guy up when he landed on her and we don't even know if he was using the same weight.
Click to expand...
I only mentioned one comment about power scaling.

Really, 'she laughs evilly'. Now you're just nitpicking.
Click to expand...

If it were the only complaint about their behavior in the episode it'd be nitpicking, but it's just a blatant example of their overall characterization there.

It doesn't work like that. You're the one who said that Toei reacted to fan feedback in the past, so it's up to you to bring proof since you're the one who made the statement. It shouldn't be up to me to disproved something you haven't even proven.
Click to expand...

Like I said, it's irrelevant to my argument. I only mentioned it because it seemed to be an accepted truth in this thread. Now suddenly it isn't. Ok. I didn't intend to argue about that.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
I don't see the pride troopers as being evil in 101. They're doing the smartest thing, attack the 2 weakest.

Kale attacked their team member, so they're going to be a little more aggressive towards her and Caulifla.

They acted no different than Toppo acted towards Goku when he thought Goku was evil. Jiren saying Get Lost makes him come off as more evil than that.

If Kale didn't transform, the fight would have been one sided.

NeonZ said:
I mean, I never mentioned them ganging up on Kale as what makes them evil, so I don't get where you're trying to go with that argument...


Only because Caulifla also didn't transform until the ending, but unlike Kale she had no reason to do that, especially if she was getting wounded for real, unlike Goku.
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Because then I have no clue when they were acting evil
Against Goku, 17 and 18? I can't think of much they did then that could even be interpreted as evil. Maybe the General?

The Pride Troopers would have destroyed SSJ2 Caulifla.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
I mean, I never mentioned them ganging up on Kale as part of what makes them evil, so I don't get where you're trying to go with that argument...

Another actual example of their odd behavior there would be how they abandoned team mates, especially what the girl did at the end.

Skeeter49 said:
If Kale didn't transform, the fight would have been one sided.
Click to expand...
Only because Caulifla also didn't transform until the ending, but unlike Kale she had no reason to do that, especially if she was getting wounded for real, unlike Goku.
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
I only mentioned one comment about power scaling.



If it were the only complaint about their behavior in the episode it'd be nitpicking, but it's just a blatant example of their overall characterization there.



Like I said, it's irrelevant to my argument. I only mentioned it because it seemed to be an accepted truth in this thread. Now suddenly it isn't. Ok. I didn't intend to argue about that.
Click to expand...

As I pointed out, the Pride Troopers acted the same way even under a different writer. So why is this one writer being blamed for the Pride Troopers acting like 'villains'?

If it was irrelevant, why did you even mentioned it? And Toei listening to fans was never a accept truth here.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
HeroR said:
As I pointed out, the Pride Troopers acted the same way even under a different writer. So why is this one writer being blamed for the Pride Troopers acting like 'villains'?
Click to expand...

No, they didn't. Acting smug is different from villain laughs (rewatching the episode, it actually happens several times) and abandoning team mates, alongside the odd hype coming from their GoD.

If it was irrelevant, why did you even mentioned it? And Toei listening to fans was never a accept truth here.
Click to expand...
I only mentioned it because you first claimed the opposite - Toei doesn't react to feedback. In that post, I thought you were just referencing the short time period between the pre-tournament episodes and the tournament itself, at first I didn't realize you were denying the overall idea of Toei reacting to feedback, which is why I replied that way. If I had noticed what you meant to say there, I wouldn't have bothered following up on that part of your post.

Skeeter49 said:
Because then I have no clue when they were acting evil
Click to expand...

I mean, I mentioned it already above in various posts. If you disagree with it, then explain, but it's odd to argue about someone no one brought up in the first place.

The Pride Troopers would have destroyed SSJ2 Caulifla.
Click to expand...

Maybe if she only turned into a SSJ2 for the beam struggle at the end, but she was beaten up for a while in base and was still standing, so obviously SSJ2 would allow her to turn that around if she didn't get herself wounded in the first place.
 
H

HeroR

Member
NeonZ said:
No, they didn't. Acting smug is different from villain laughs (rewatching the episode, it actually happens several times) and abandoning team mates, alongside the odd hype coming from their GoD.


I only mentioned it because you first claimed the opposite - Toei doesn't react to feedback. In that post, I thought you were just referencing the short time period between the pre-tournament episodes and the tournament itself, at first I didn't realize you were denying the overall idea of Toei reacting to feedback, which is why I replied that way. If I had noticed what you meant to say there, I wouldn't have bothered following up on that part of your post.



I mean, I mentioned it already above in various posts. If you disagree with it, then explain, but it's odd to argue about someone no one brought up in the first place.



Maybe if she only turned into a SSJ2 for the beam struggle at the end, but she was beaten up for a while in base and was still standing, so obviously SSJ2 would allow her to turn that around if she didn't get herself wounded in the first place.
Click to expand...

Dypso was acting smug, laughing, and looked down at Hit and had no problem double teaming him when things went wrong. How is that any different than how the Pride Troopers acted in Episode 101? Toppo also abandoned his teammates even worse in Episode 104 since he didn't step in to help the moment Goku jumped in, despite knowing Goku's power.

I said Toei doesn't react to complaints on the internet, especially when the script is written and done months ahead of time. So people being angry at Tien's treatment before Episode 106 would have no bearings. And I can't 'deny' something that has no actual evidence behind it besides fans guessing that this was changed because of feedback. Like we know that Resurrection 'F' was made the way it was because of feedback from Battle of Gods, namely put more action in and have the other Z-Fighters so something. We know this because Toriyama and Toei told us. What statements do we have from for Super other than Toriyama wanted to put Gohan back in the spotlight, which may be because of fan feedback, or Toriyama decided to finally used Gohan.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
The problem with the current outro, is it would fit the last few episodes of the tournament more.

While something more faster pace like this sounds would fit the middle of the tournament more.

Sounds great, Boogie Back is still the best.

Visual's matter a lot though, so I have to see them.

When are we due the new outro? Before the special?

HardRojo said:
Can't wait for the new ending artwork and to see if we'll get some more hints.
Click to expand...
Like Vegeta, Tien, and Krillin crying, looking into each others eyes as everyone else is being useful and having fun.

Oh and Cabba watches from afar.
 
H

HardRojo

Member
Can't wait for the new ending artwork and to see if we'll get some more hints.
Skeeter49 said:
The problem with the current outro, is it would fit the last few episodes of the tournament more.

While something more faster pace like this sounds would fit the middle of the tournament more.

Sounds great, Boogie Back is still the best.

Visual's matter a lot though, so I have to see them.

When are we due the new outro? Before the special?
Click to expand...
If it's every 12 episodes it should be after the special, unless the special is considered a regular episode, in which case it'd debut in the special. I don't know how it'll be handled.
 
T

The Silver

Member
Skeeter49 said:
The problem with the current outro, is it would fit the last few episodes of the tournament more.

While something more faster pace like this sounds would fit the middle of the tournament more.

Sounds great, Boogie Back is still the best.

Visual's matter a lot though, so I have to see them.

When are we due the new outro? Before the special?


Like Vegeta, Tien, and Krillin crying, looking into each others eyes as everyone else is being useful and having fun.

Oh and Cabba watches from afar.
Click to expand...
Wat, Geets is mvp of the tournament right now you Yamcha.
 
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