DS ships 1m in Japan, Sell through 1m by Saturday. US also 1m sells
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mashoutposse
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DavidDayton said:
Depth is probably the wrong word. I'm talking about the "experience" -- RR feels as good as the best home console racers. Minna No Golf is just as fun on PSP as it is on PS2.
The key is the feeling that NOTHING has been watered down.
Drinky Crow said:
That could be done on the NDS as well. Frankly, I don't know why we haven't seen any annoucements for fighters and other 2d arcade games. The machine has the power and it has standard controls finally after so many years of the GB basically having a portable NES pad. I'm worried that developers are getting too caught up in the two screens or touchscreen stuff to make more conventional games that the NDS is more than capable of doing. That kind of misses the point of system having a flexible design.
ThongyDonk
Banned
No the key there is
THEY ARE ALL THE SAME AS WHAT YOU HAVE AT HOME!!!
THEY ARE ALL THE SAME AS WHAT YOU HAVE AT HOME!!!
mashoutposse
Ante Up
DavidDayton said:
Does it really take a magic 8-ball to know this will happen? It should be a foregone conclusion already.
The DC guys said the same thing before the PS2 launched -- "What guarantee is there that the PS2 will have a PS1-like library?" 4.5 years later...
To answer your question, the fact that I already have two of them spinning in my PSP spells good things for the prospect of genuine home console games on it in the future.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
ThongyDonk said:
No, they aren't. If the games were just EXACT ports of PS2 games, then I could see your point.
They aren't.
mashoutposse said:
Here's the problem--you're trying to map the success of the Playstation onto the handheld industry. It doesn't work that way. Nintendo has the advantage right now--they have sold a lot more NDSs and the machine is compatible with the GBA. You might have a point if the PSP actually played PS2 games, but it has it's own media for games and movies. Sony's brand name doesn't mean instant victory.
All the talk about "PSP will compete with PS2", "PSP will have exact ports of PS2 games". It's getting old, and really...it IS old. Look at GBA, we've had "ports" from PS2/Xbox/GC --> GBA...or not even ports, but less attractive interpretations of the real thing. Usually the games are more simple and worse than the original, trying to cash in on the brand.
So instead of cheap imitations with past gen technology, you're saying we'll get ports of current gen games with almost current gen technology? I'd say that sounds like a better deal. IF it's even true.
But I really think all this talk about PSP being a portable PS2 is overreacting. What has been a PS2 --> PSP port so far? Minna no Golf? No. Ridge Racers? No. Lumines? No.
My point is, I think we'll see just as many "ports" for GBA and NDS. And we'll see just as much original content.
And if you're convinced I'm wrong with this, let's just wait and see...and then spend hours making exciting list arguments!
So instead of cheap imitations with past gen technology, you're saying we'll get ports of current gen games with almost current gen technology? I'd say that sounds like a better deal. IF it's even true.
But I really think all this talk about PSP being a portable PS2 is overreacting. What has been a PS2 --> PSP port so far? Minna no Golf? No. Ridge Racers? No. Lumines? No.
My point is, I think we'll see just as many "ports" for GBA and NDS. And we'll see just as much original content.
And if you're convinced I'm wrong with this, let's just wait and see...and then spend hours making exciting list arguments!
mashoutposse said:
Urm... I was more curious as to what your "proof" was that the DS would not get such titles. I'm of the opinion that both platforms will receive a nice little bundle of excellent games, and curious as to why you are so certain the games will necessarily be better on the PSP, depth and playwise.
mashoutposse
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ge-man said:
You're right. I'm just giving my thoughts on what I think will happen.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
DavidDayton said:
Continuing along the same line of thinking, I have at least one DS adaptation of a home console game in my possession that doesn't completely make the translation, and it's an eight year old game at that. Yes, it has a home console-like length, but it certainly couldn't pass for a current gen game.
With the PSP games I have, they could be on any of the home consoles as-is and feel not out of place. I can't say the same about DS games yet.
Thats the point with DS. To do something new, too be different.
The only thing DS lacks now is the real new breed of games. The initial launch title has been rush jobs but the coming months will be interesting. So the potential impact of DS is yet to be determined.
The potential is there and consumers acknowledge that.
ThongyDonk said:
"All mouth as always"? Have you even read some of my essays? Obviously not!
Here's the problems with your statement:
ThongyDonk said:
How is he a loser for preferring the PSP after he played it, or suggesting it's so good he can see massive sales?
ThongyDonk said:
Really!? You mean people want Gameboy Advance games. 60 million people can't be wrong, that's for damn sure. But this is a new generation. The Nintendo DS is not the next "Gameboy", according to Nintendo. It's one of the three pillars in their strategy. We do not yet know if Nintendo's handheld appeal will translate onto the DS. Sales of it (and PSP, for that matter) can be attributed largely to fanboy adoption. And using backward compatibility is irrelevant here; you lose a major aspect of the games in the conversion so it's not a "end all be all alternative for GBA SP."
Similarly, you forget the most major point: Nintendo has always BEEN #1. There has never truly been a viable alternative to the Gameboy system. Ever. All the pointless comparrisons to Game Gear, to LYNX, to NOMAD... to anything... they're worthless and wrong. There has absolutely never been as dangerous a competitor to the market as the PSP is about to become. We will soon know just how much people "need" GBA games or the Gameboy brand.
Everything else is speculation.
ThongyDonk said:
The logical fallacy here is that you assume that people stop buying things when the experience is not unique. This has been proven categorically false on every single occassion we've had such an ordeal. The thing it comes down to is games. Have we ever been able to have a portable experience like PSP before? No. This is the key fact. The bullshit argument about how the PSP is "just a portable PS2" proves you miss the point entirely.
First, this is a PORTABLE. You realize what that means, right? It means that you bring it places you CAN'T drag your 40" Plasma's to. I've heard this argument spouted before and it is STILL as hilarious as ever.
Secondly, you're still buying unique titles. The PSP is not simply a system where you toss in your PS2 discs and go. Their are unique, "exclusive" titles that are coming to PSP in the future and some have even made an appearance at launch, such as Lumines. I can't play Lumines on PS2. For that matter, I can't even play Ridge Racers on PS2. Technically these games are possible, but the fact is they DON'T exist yet on other platforms. They make the GAMING experience - the place where it counts - unique. As was proven undeniably by the DS launch it doesn't matter how "innovative" your input scheme is... the games can still suck just as hard.
ThongyDork said:
REALLY!??!
mashoutposse
Ante Up
GBA is the arguably the least innovative console right now, yet it sells the most.
The simple and straightforward goal of a portable is to let you take your games with you on the road or wherever. The one that lets you take along the best games wins. Why people keep twisting the purpose of handheld gaming is beyond me.
The simple and straightforward goal of a portable is to let you take your games with you on the road or wherever. The one that lets you take along the best games wins. Why people keep twisting the purpose of handheld gaming is beyond me.
Drinky Crow said:
I hope he wasn't trying to make that point, as it is a horrible one. Firstly, the NDS has a crosspad and buttons in addition to the mic imput and touchscreen (and I'm sure most games use them) and second, the screen itself would allow for a much more intuitive experience with some of the portable formats most popular genres.
So how'd that work out for TG-Express, Lynx, Game Gear, NeoGeo Pocket and Wonderswan?mashoutposse said:
There's more to handheld gaming than that... it's a mix between brand, battery life, software, convenience and cost. There's no simple solution though, and neither DS or PSP are really guaranteed anything at this point besides moderate success. There's just too many unknowns.
soundwave05
Member
I think PSP will overtake DS for monthly sales by next spring (in Japan and North America), but GBA SP will probably continue to outsell both for a while.
Of course, that could prompt Nintendo to drop the DS price to $99. I think they could've sold the DS for $99 this year, but opted not to because they knew the initial units were going to sell out anyway.
Of course, that could prompt Nintendo to drop the DS price to $99. I think they could've sold the DS for $99 this year, but opted not to because they knew the initial units were going to sell out anyway.
Drinky Crow said:Unlike the rest of you smarty man industry insider types with your hotlines to Yamauchi and all, I dunno how it's all gonna turn out. But I'll tell you this: if the PSP is a runaway success, I'm gonna be INTOLERABLE.
And if the NDS does what I think it will, I'll be worse
mashoutposse said:
Right, the one that lets you take along the best games at:
(1) a cheap price for the unit and its games
That doesn't appear to be the PSP.
We will need to see where the real pricing for the NDS and PSP games will settle. The current pricing of the launch games is meaningless. But I don't see Sony in the long run being able to match the GBA at 20 to 30 dollars per game and the NDS at 25 to 35 dollars to game.
If you read nothing else on the PSP versus DS battle read the next sentence:
The lower specs of the NDS equate directly to lower development costs and given the low tie in ratio for handhelds there is simply no way that the upscale PSP software market will survive.
Or rephrased:
There is no substantial market for the PSP and the software that Sony wants you to buy on it.
There is a huge fucking black abyss that the PSP train is heading towards. That abyss marks the spot where the 3 million or so hardcore handheld gamers end and reality begins. That abyss will swallow up all of the PSP fanboys, take your money and spit you back out the other side.
JasoNsider
Member
In typical GAF form, this thread started into tail spin a couple of posts in. Jesus H. Christmas.
The PSP and DS are two great machines. PSP tries to entice the existing next-generation gamers to go portable at a (relatively) great price. The DS tries to entice the non-gamers to try out its easy-to-use features. No matter how you want to look at it, the fact remains that they are two systems going after two very different things. It's sad to come on here and see fans screaming bloody murder trying to defend their "territory" from the evil competitors. Like their big brothers - the consoles - there will be good games on all the machines.
Drinky: I want to know what your threshold is here. I've wanted to call you out on some of your comments, but I realize that you're a mod. Not really sure how I feel about that. People like Mike Works usually have relatively neutral palettes, but your views usually border on the extremes. I assume you don't just randomly ban people that happen to disagree with your views?
Who are the other mods on the board, out of curiosity?
The PSP and DS are two great machines. PSP tries to entice the existing next-generation gamers to go portable at a (relatively) great price. The DS tries to entice the non-gamers to try out its easy-to-use features. No matter how you want to look at it, the fact remains that they are two systems going after two very different things. It's sad to come on here and see fans screaming bloody murder trying to defend their "territory" from the evil competitors. Like their big brothers - the consoles - there will be good games on all the machines.
Drinky: I want to know what your threshold is here. I've wanted to call you out on some of your comments, but I realize that you're a mod. Not really sure how I feel about that. People like Mike Works usually have relatively neutral palettes, but your views usually border on the extremes. I assume you don't just randomly ban people that happen to disagree with your views?
Who are the other mods on the board, out of curiosity?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
We need to get one of these:
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/02/25/drinky_crow_jackinth.html
And the trigger to activate it will be every time somebody mentions the Nintendo DS in positive light on this board :lol
And the trigger to activate it will be every time somebody mentions the Nintendo DS in positive light on this board :lol
krypt0nian
Banned
Insanely good news.
I welcome the trolls as a bit of a grounding force when its this good.
I like to stay close to the little people.
I welcome the trolls as a bit of a grounding force when its this good.
I like to stay close to the little people.
Christberg
Member
Man, you guys sure do doubt the DS. Funny stuff, given that it's selling like crazy.
Anyway, I usually don't bother with these this v that BS stuff these days, but I'll throw in a couple of pennies to the whole discussion anyway:
Nintendo had kind of a poor software launch with the DS, but it hasn't really mattered. The PSP launched a week later than the DS in Japan, and it's still at a virtual sellout. Since it has much better availability, it's lead is pretty much guaranteed to be 2-2.5 million or more by the time the PSP launches in America, most likely (yet again) in very limited quantities.
A lot of folks on here are talking about how the PSP is ooohhh sooo much better but they're the exact target market Sony is pushing for right now:Technophile early adopters. Unfortunately, GAF doesn't really reflect the general gaming public and we'll have to see what their response is. Right now, it's buy shitloads of DS units regardless of whether the PSP is out or not.
Bryanbr has a very good point, which is that handhelds historically have a lower attach rate than home consoles, by far, and that you have to be profitable under those conditions. Thusfar, the PSP shows the same sort of pattern, and it may actually be worse because of people buying the unit for portable media playback reasons.
When you add a higher development cost to a lower attach rate and limited product availability due to economy of scale reasons it doesn't bode particularly well for PSP.
So, I'll go "out on a limb" with my predictions and say... the DS will easily outsell the PSP in the short term and for the "forseeable future" (IE the next 6 months or so). In the long term, though, who knows.
I'll also predict that the DS WILL be a success and that it WILL most certainly be more profitable a venture than the PSP.
Anyway, I usually don't bother with these this v that BS stuff these days, but I'll throw in a couple of pennies to the whole discussion anyway:
Nintendo had kind of a poor software launch with the DS, but it hasn't really mattered. The PSP launched a week later than the DS in Japan, and it's still at a virtual sellout. Since it has much better availability, it's lead is pretty much guaranteed to be 2-2.5 million or more by the time the PSP launches in America, most likely (yet again) in very limited quantities.
A lot of folks on here are talking about how the PSP is ooohhh sooo much better but they're the exact target market Sony is pushing for right now:Technophile early adopters. Unfortunately, GAF doesn't really reflect the general gaming public and we'll have to see what their response is. Right now, it's buy shitloads of DS units regardless of whether the PSP is out or not.
Bryanbr has a very good point, which is that handhelds historically have a lower attach rate than home consoles, by far, and that you have to be profitable under those conditions. Thusfar, the PSP shows the same sort of pattern, and it may actually be worse because of people buying the unit for portable media playback reasons.
When you add a higher development cost to a lower attach rate and limited product availability due to economy of scale reasons it doesn't bode particularly well for PSP.
So, I'll go "out on a limb" with my predictions and say... the DS will easily outsell the PSP in the short term and for the "forseeable future" (IE the next 6 months or so). In the long term, though, who knows.
I'll also predict that the DS WILL be a success and that it WILL most certainly be more profitable a venture than the PSP.
Yeah, I started a similar thread with similar information (how it's one of the holiday's "hot items") and it too has met a similar fate.JasoNsider said:
And in my experience, Drinky - and the other mods - don't ban those who disagree with him - a third of the board would probably be annihilated by Drinky alone if that was the case. The bannings usually start once insults and such other TOS-breaking actions occur.
Yeah .. kingdom heart for GBA looks amazing, I was literally in awe while I watch those cut scenes... the only problem is it's not fun .......Bishman said:
Square-Enix will decide the fate between NDS and PSP. Go look at KH:CoM, the game is just beautiful and the graphics look amazing for a GBA game. Now think what Square-Enix can do with the NDS hardware and not to mention online system like Playonline.
imastalker co.
Banned
not me. forcing developers to make use of 2 screns is bound to get us some fresh new stuff. it's gonna be a while though. wait for the second generation stuff to hit. that's when the DS is really going to start to shine.john tv said:
for those of you who realize that there's a shit load of potential, should remind themselves that it's gonna be a bit before that potential is fully realized.
Johnny Nighttrain said:
I think the general problem is both screens combined on DS still don't reach the quality of the PSP screen. I believe they should have had one great beautiful screen on top and another regular DS-like touch screen on bottom. It really hurts them that they don't. As it is now the screen quality is not grand canyon leaps apart.
seismologist
Banned
Johnny Nighttrain said:
I agree. 2nd gen DS games are gonna be amazing. I'm ready for the 100% stylus control /voice control games to hit.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
bryanbr said:
Well... as you see the argument can yake multiple faces... are you saying that the best way to go for handhelds is to scale specs back ? So, in your view we should get GCN level graphics by 2011 and Revolution level graphics on a handheld by 2025 ?
If tie-in ratio stays at similar to GBA levels at a higher price-point for each game it means that higher development budgets can be sustained.
Faster hardware can lead to need for quite higher budgets of course, but it is not like we can ask the console players to scale back specs forever... in performance alone and features the DS is a BIG big step forward compared to the GBA and the next GameBoy will push specs forward as well. Nintendo wants to make a lot more profit off-the-gate on each GameBoy they sell even at system's launch rather then take losses and push on the technology development side like Sony/SCE do (Sony/SCE takes advantage of the semiconductor R&D they do for their next0generation parts to reduce the cost of their current parts like they have done with PlayStation 2 and PSTwo or PlayStation and PSOne).
Nintendo is half-honest when they downplay technlogy: they want to improove technology, but they want to do it at their own pace mantaining their "keep close to 0, if you ought to have any at all, your losses on each unit sold at all times (including launch)" policy. They have to take that stance as their competition uses the technology card as one of their strengths.
Do you honestly think that if they could have made the same profit margin on the DS while pushing a GCN-mini chipset inside the DS in late 2004 that they would have stuck with N64++ related technology ?
That is the same reason why they launched GCN when they launched it and why the DS has the specs it cureently has.
I think there is a market for higher priced software in the portable arena, if those titles are worthy of their price-point: I do not think that graphics have reached the point of no return in portable gaming that would render a games' price hike ground-less.
Would I pay a premium to get modern quality 3D on PSP ? Yes and I am sure that the PSP market will have its fair share of games that will push the machine less and will target a lower price point.
Whether this forum likes it or not, one of the reasons why the GBA got the kind of tie-in ratio it has is also linked to what it provides versus what the masses want to pay for.
Nintendo is not advertising the much improoved 2D capabilities of the DS: talking about DS games they emphasyse even on the retail box how DS games and cool 3D graphics go together. Developers tried to push 3D on the GBA and with the DS I think more and more will go the 3D way. Pure 2D graphics based games arenot going to die, but they will not remain the leader in the portable arena. Nintendo knows this, they know too that developers and users want handhelds to fully enter the realm of 3D graphics.
I thin k we can accept that, we can accept that all portable consoles makers are going to make of 3D graphics one of the focuses of their machines. You made the jump from crude 3D on GBA class portables to N64++ quality 3D because you believed that people do care about graphics in the first place.
If games could not be better, more interactive, more appealing going from the 32-64 bits era to the so called "128 bits" era, why did home consoles made that jump ? Why is PlayStataion 2 selling at a better pace than PSOne Software and Hardware volumes wise ?
Games improoved... the experience that you can have with some of the games out today would have not been possible with the older consoles.
Would Half-Life 2 be the same without the same physics based animation and gameplay systems ?
Would ICO, Prince of Persia 1, Z.O.E. 2, MGS3 and MGS2 be able to immerse the player in their virtual worlds if they were made with the constraints the older consoles imposed ?
Games have become prettier, but we also have games that are more interactive and deeper too and this will be true for PlayStation 3, Xbox 2 and Revolution/NES 5.
People wanted better 3D graphics than what the 32-64 bits generation provided and they supported the current generation of consoles.
The GBA came out with great games and while it was evolving graphics on portable game systems it was arriving when 3D graphics was entering another evolution stage in the home console world and after users aleady experienced 3D graphics and the kind of game worlds those machines could create and the gameplay they offered.
The GBA could not match them fully: it can do great looking 2D games like the best of them, but it was just not geared/meant for 3D graphics.
I think that the DS and the next-generation GameBoy (which will go after higher-performance 3D graphics than the DS for sure), if Nintendo plays their cards right, and the PSP will be able to enjoy higher tie-in ratios as they are more in touch with what the public wants whether you mean advanced games with cool looking 3D graphics (with more than decent controls) and multi-media functionality or good 3D graphics and touch-screen functionality (Super Mario 64 DS mini-games do have a nice success with non-gameers... IMHO the DS should have had both the touch screen and the analog stick/thumb-pad as they are not mutually exclusive features).