Support NeoGAF

[Amir0x]

I dunno... it's worked out pretty well for Sega and Sony before. It'll probably be a good advantage for Microsoft next year also.

A headstart can definietly be a large contributing factor at the least... though I don't think it really applies here (DS vs PSP) as there isn't enough of a headstart to be of use really. Sony's having problems getting manufacturing up to speed but that'll likely be rectified in the next 3-6 months, which really isn't enough time for DS to attain an insurmountable lead (though a healthy lead is possible). Both machines have notable software and engaging hardware, the winner here is going to be decided by market strategy (pricing, promotion, brand, media, etc).

It can have benefits, but it's pretty clear that there are probably an equal amount of pitfalls to coming out early. In this case I believe any "headstart" DS has will be negligible to what does/does not succeed. Which you seem to agree with so it's cool

 

[AniHawk]

By next Christmas the PSP will all but be pulled from the US market.

Even on the off-chance PSP is a failure, it'll be here by next Christmas, I guarantee it. If the N-Gage could survive a year, there's no way in hell the PSP couldn't.

 

[bryanbr]

Don't have the time? The PS2 sales ratio of software to hardware is the highest among consoles. There are about 25 million of the systems in the US... I'm sure at least 5-10% of them are probably really hardcore and interested in a PSP with some games, and have the money to support it early on. They'll start the word of mouth and when the system can be made cheaper, it should take off (thinking maybe this time next year at the latest).

Yeah except that if 5-10% of PS2 owners purchasing a PSP isn't enought to support the system. They need more.

Even if that number purchased as many games for their PSP as they do for PS2, it wouldn't be enough. Cause here is the real nail in the PSPs coffin:

There is an extremely low attach ratio for games to handheld systems.

Here is yet one more nail in the PSPs coffin:

Next Christmas will technophiles in the US be paying 249.00 for a PSP or will they be spending that 249.00 on a shiny new XBox3?

Yeah, that's right. They won't be buying the PSP. Would you rather have cutdown versions of PS2 games or the next generation of XBox games?

 

[Amir0x]

True, the system itself does, but a memory stick is required (I think) to save games. It's like how with the PS2/GC/DC, you're not just buying the system, you pretty much have to spend another 20-30 bucks for a memory device. Then after tax, you're looking at probably 250ish if the system is $199.99 in the States.

But you can't include other aspects in the core package. What the potential customer "might" end up paying and what they pay at base is both entirely exclusive propositions. In other words, they won't ignore a product that is 199.99 if that's appealing to them simply because they realize they might have to put in an extra 20-30 bucks. In terms of consoles/handhelds most consumers realize that it's an investment. Investments are something people are willing to put money into. They realize they might have to buy various games in the future, or perhaps more controllers, or in this case a memory card. They're not that dumb, and the initial attractive price will be the draw.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yeah, that's right. They won't be buying the PSP. Would you rather have cutdown versions of PS2 games or the next generation of XBox games?

Can't wait to see people marching around the street with an Xbox 2 strapped to their back and mini TV's in front of them.

 

[bryanbr]

It's 194, once again, and the statement preceding that is an assumption based on hot air. Similarly, although this hardly needs to be said since you're clearly trolling and baiting, the PSP plays many games the PS2 does not. And it will only increase as time goes on.

Wrong. Wrong. and Wrong.

It is not 194. It is 249.00 once you buy the case and the memory stick. You are aware that the vast majority of games like to save their games occasionally? I forgive this oversight on your part to the fantasy world that you are living in.

The height of the PSP gaming as far as I can tell is a 3d driving game that plays worse than 3d driving games on a PS2. RR for PSP features slower game play and less cars on the screen than PS2 driving games.

No one wants to pay 249.00 dollars for that experience.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Wrong. Wrong. and Wrong.

It is not 194. It is 249.00 once you buy the case and the memory stick. You are aware that the vast majority of games like to save their games occasionally? I forgive this oversight on your part to the fantasy world that you are living in.

The height of the PSP gaming as far as I can tell is a 3d driving game that plays worse than 3d driving games on a PS2. RR for PSP features slower game play and less cars on the screen than PS2 driving games.

No one wants to pay 249.00 dollars for that experience.

Interesting that the people that actually own RR on the PSP have a vastly different opinion on it than what you're saying.

 

[bryanbr]

Can't wait to see people marching around the street with an Xbox 2 strapped to their back and mini TV's in front of them.

You entirely miss the point.

I will refresh you: the PSP is entirely dependent on existing console gamers deciding that they want to spend large amount of their console gaming money on a handheld.

IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Wake up. Snap out of it. Get a clue.

Those console gamers would probably strap their XBox 3 to their backs before bothering with the PSP.

 

[Amir0x]

Wrong. Wrong. and Wrong.

Repeating it makes it true!

It is not 194. It is 249.00 once you buy the case and the memory stick. You are aware that the vast majority of games like to save their games occasionally? I forgive this oversight on your part to the fantasy world that you are living in.

No, it's 194. That is the price of the unit. Other "investments" you make surrounding it are just that - investments. Read the post above yours if you really are even remotely trying to entertain the thought of being truthful to yourself.

The height of the PSP gaming as far as I can tell is a 3d driving game that plays worse than 3d driving games on a PS2. RR for PSP features slower game play and less cars on the screen than PS2 driving games.

I'll justify this with an answer once you actually get the facts about this game. Because literally every single thing you said here is false.

No one wants to pay 249.00 dollars for that experience.

"No one" equals "bryanbr."

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I won't be baited and trolled anymore by you.

 

[AniHawk]

But you can't include other aspects in the core package. What the potential customer "might" end up paying and what they pay at base is both entirely exclusive propositions. In other words, they won't ignore a product that is 199.99 if that's appealing to them simply because they realize they might have to put in an extra 20-30 bucks. In terms of consoles/handhelds most consumers realize that it's an investment. Investments are something people are willing to put money into. They realize they might have to buy various games in the future, or perhaps more controllers, or in this case a memory card. They're not that dumb, and the initial attractive price will be the draw.

Some people are that dumb. I work retail, so all of this is anecdotal evidence, but people are still shocked/disappointed that they have to buy a memory card for their GCs and PS2s when they pick up the system. And I don't think people realize how much this stuff can really run them, either (damn near $200 for a DS and a game in SoCal). We had to tell people that the DS is $162.30, not $149.99, because they come only with $160.

Then there's the fact that the PSP is the first handheld with an extra memory saving device, AFAIK. People will be disappointed by this. Some may be turned away.

Yeah except that if 5-10% of PS2 owners purchasing a PSP isn't enought to support the system. They need more.

Even if that number purchased as many games for their PSP as they do for PS2, it wouldn't be enough. Cause here is the real nail in the PSPs coffin:

There is an extremely low attach ratio for games to handheld systems.

Here is yet one more nail in the PSPs coffin:

Next Christmas will technophiles in the US be paying 249.00 for a PSP or will they be spending that 249.00 on a shiny new XBox3?

Yeah, that's right. They won't be buying the PSP. Would you rather have cutdown versions of PS2 games or the next generation of XBox games?

1. If the 5-10% of PS2 owners buy a PSP, and they're the hardcore market, then it won't really matter. Sony will be getting profits since people buying the games will probably be those who buy a lot of them. 7 PSP games = $210-280 from one person, multiplied by 2 million, and there's a nice bit of revenue. The thing about GBA -> DS owners is GBA owners don't buy a lot of games for their system. PS2 owners do, and that tendency will probably carry over to the PS2.

2. The Xbox Next/Xbox 2/Xenon will be a very big wild card next year. MS is going to have to be careful about killing the Xbox quickly enough that the mainstream doesn't notice when the Xenon is released. Might be a tricky thing to do since it keeps building momentum, and some owners will feel screwed over for buying it at a high price late in its life for only one year of new games left. I don't know how the PSP will factor in to Xenon sales, or vice versa. A bunch of possibilities though.

 

[Amir0x]

Some people are that dumb. I work retail, so all of this is anecdotal evidence, but people are still shocked/disappointed that they have to buy a memory card for their GCs and PS2s when they pick up the system. And I don't think people realize how much this stuff can really run them, either (damn near $200 for a DS and a game in SoCal). We had to tell people that the DS is $162.30, not $149.99, because they come only with $160.

Oh obviously there are some people that are that dumb, and naturally it wasn't meant to be taken as a sweeping generalization on my part. My core point is that it will definitely have a negligible affect on sales. Other things will affect sales, but people knowing they have to buy a memory card will not.

 

[tetsuoxb]

You entirely miss the point.

I will refresh you: the PSP is entirely dependent on existing console gamers deciding that they want to spend large amount of their console gaming money on a handheld.

IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Wake up. Snap out of it. Get a clue.

Those console gamers would probably strap their XBox 3 to their backs before bothering with the PSP.

Can someone just change the junior member tagline to fucking moron. It applies to about all of them.

If you honestly think that people are not going to spend on PSP, you have basically ignored the past week and a half.

 

[Odnetnin]

Some people are that dumb. I work retail, so all of this is anecdotal evidence, but people are still shocked/disappointed that they have to buy a memory card for their GCs and PS2s when they pick up the system. And I don't think people realize how much this stuff can really run them, either (damn near $200 for a DS and a game in SoCal). We had to tell people that the DS is $162.30, not $149.99, because they come only with $160.

Then there's the fact that the PSP is the first handheld with an extra memory saving device, AFAIK. People will be disappointed by this. Some may be turned away.



1. If the 5-10% of PS2 owners buy a PSP, and they're the hardcore market, then it won't really matter. Sony will be getting profits since people buying the games will probably be those who buy a lot of them. 7 PSP games = $210-280 from one person, multiplied by 2 million, and there's a nice bit of revenue. The thing about GBA -> DS owners is GBA owners don't buy a lot of games for their system. PS2 owners do, and that tendency will probably carry over to the PS2.

2. The Xbox Next/Xbox 2/Xenon will be a very big wild card next year. MS is going to have to be careful about killing the Xbox quickly enough that the mainstream doesn't notice when the Xenon is released. Might be a tricky thing to do since it keeps building momentum, and some owners will feel screwed over for buying it at a high price late in its life for only one year of new games left. I don't know how the PSP will factor in to Xenon sales, or vice versa. A bunch of possibilities though.

good post! On point 1 however, I don't know if you equate the PS2 crowd to PSP though. The very fact that its handheld gaming and one that as you'd pointed out under the sales commentary (cost as much as it does) would mean that unless the hardcore is exremely hardcore, it would be hard for them to buy that many titles. I think you might find that the mainstream set will probably carry across that handheld attach rate that the GBA market has. I think you discount the fact that many gamers would rather spend their money on titles for their established consoles (and/or next next gen consoles - n5/ps3/xenon); I could be wrong but isn't the US all about the bigger the better? I'm sure the sit on the LZY boy and get lard arsed while gaming mentality will triumph.

I would also argue that handheld gaming is antisocial in nature.

 

[mashoutposse]

Yeah except that if 5-10% of PS2 owners purchasing a PSP isn't enought to support the system. They need more.

Even if that number purchased as many games for their PSP as they do for PS2, it wouldn't be enough. Cause here is the real nail in the PSPs coffin:

There is an extremely low attach ratio for games to handheld systems.

Here is yet one more nail in the PSPs coffin:

Next Christmas will technophiles in the US be paying 249.00 for a PSP or will they be spending that 249.00 on a shiny new XBox3?

Yeah, that's right. They won't be buying the PSP. Would you rather have cutdown versions of PS2 games or the next generation of XBox games?

What you probably don't know (since you likely haven't had the chance to actually see one yet), is that the PSP is desirable. You see it, you want it. Ask any of the owners on this board, and a high percentage will agree with that statement. You don't have to read endless reviews or know anything beforehand about what it does or even what it is -- it attracts on sight.

When these things are in kiosks at retailers, people are going to say, "Holy shit." As odd as it sounds, even at $199 it's going to be an impulse buy for some people. I would go as far as to say that there will be a PSP shortage here in the US that will last as long as it did for PS2 (where it took over 6 months before you could actually walk into a store and pick one up without having to get lucky).

I think you are greatly underestimating the demand.

 

[jarrod]

It can have benefits, but it's pretty clear that there are probably an equal amount of pitfalls to coming out early. In this case I believe any "headstart" DS has will be negligible to what does/does not succeed. Which you seem to agree with so it's cool

Agreed. For every Genesis or PlayStation there's quite a few counter examples in Dreamcast, TurboGrafx or WonderSwan. DS will have a negligible lead most likely and shorter lifespan by design.

But you can't include other aspects in the core package. What the potential customer "might" end up paying and what they pay at base is both entirely exclusive propositions.

But then why add a $29.99 game in your DS comparison? And why use JP price as a standard? Shouldn't we then say it's actually $142.82 (DS) versus $189.79 (PSP)?

 

[Amir0x]

Agreed. For every Genesis or PlayStation there's quite a few counter examples in Dreamcast, TurboGrafx or WonderSwan. DS will have a negligible lead most likely and shorter lifespan by design.

I can't find anything to disagree with

But then why add a $29.99 game in your DS comparison? And why use JP price as a standard? Shouldn't we then say it's actually $142.82 (DS) versus $189.79 (PSP)?

I didn't add a 29.99 game in my DS comparrison. Heh, you misunderstood. I used that to illustrate how stupid it is to add in investment measures. By the way, the DS is 149.99 in the USA right now. Where is it 142.82?

 

[jarrod]

I think you are greatly underestimating the demand.

No he's underestimating potential. You're overestimating demand.

 

[AniHawk]

By the way, the DS is 149.99 in the USA right now. Where is it 142.82?

I spent $30 on mine...

 

[Amir0x]

I spent $30 on mine...

You are so lucky

 

[jarrod]

I didn't add a 29.99 game in my DS comparrison. Heh, you misunderstood. I used that to illustrate how stupid it is to add in investment measures.

Whoops.

By the way, the DS is 149.99 in the USA right now. Where is it 142.82?

In Japan. The same place that PSP is worth $189.79 and the only place a direct cost comparison can really be made right now.

 

[Amir0x]

In Japan. The same place that PSP is worth $189.79 and the only place a direct cost comparison can really be made right now.

Oh, I see your point now.

Oh yes, then you would be correct. 142 vs. 194 (it's 194 now, right)? Yes. That would be an accurate comparrison.

 

[Odnetnin]

I spent $30 on mine...

how? :O

do you guys have any numbers on the production costs on

DS carts vs GBA carts vs UMDs? It'll be interesting to see how they differ.

 

[mashoutposse]

No he's underestimating potential. You're overestimating demand.

I don't think I am at all, but we'll see I remember a similar response when I (correctly predicted in 11/00 that the PS2 wouldn't get a price drop until at least Spring 2002, even in the face of the possibility of XBOX and GC launches during Christmas 2001 (on another board).

 

[AniHawk]

how? :O

$45 including SM64 DS. Did the Gamestop/Game Rush deal in the summer and got about $195.

 

[jarrod]

Oh, I see your point now.

Comparing pricing across regions is always inherently faulty logic. When the PSP price was first announced, it came closer to $180 and people were quoting that against the US $149 for DS. Just bugs me. :/

Oh yes, then you would be correct. 142 vs. 194 (it's 194 now, right)? Yes. That would be an accurate comparrison.

Just did the currency conversion and $189's what I got for today... it fluctuates daily.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't think I am at all, but we'll see I remember a similar response when I (correctly predicted in 11/00 that the PS2 wouldn't get a price drop until at least Spring 2002, even in the face of the possibility of XBOX and GC launches during Christmas 2001 (on another board).

Back in 2000 I accurately predicted the year and month SEGA would officially call it quits in the console market. It was back in the Daily Radar days. Man, that was the best crow eating day ever. I liked Dreamcast so much but I could see clear indications of trouble from the start.

Anyway, we'll see what predictions come true. It's going to be an interesting year I'd wager. I still won't make an official prediction until the US launch of PSP.

 

[jarrod]

I don't think I am at all, but we'll see I remember a similar response when I (correctly predicted in 11/00 that the PS2 wouldn't get a price drop until at least Spring 2002, even in the face of the possibility of XBOX and GC launches during Christmas 2001 (on another board).

You missed my point. Demand is current, potential isn't.

 

[refreshZ]

By next Christmas the PSP will all but be pulled from the US market.

:lol :lol

You're seriously delusional.

 

[Spike]

Some people are giving the PSP too much credit for next christmas sales. There are no guarantees. Yes it is going to do very well, but will it still be as desirable as it is now when the general public gets to try that shiny new Xbox 2 kiosk? If the PSP costs $199 or $249 for the value pack, and the Xbox 2 costs $299, then the perceived value of a true next gen system might hinder the sales of PSP.

 

[mashoutposse]

Back in 2000 I accurately predicted the year and month SEGA would officially call it quits in the console market. It was back in the Daily Radar days. Man, that was the best crow eating day ever. I liked Dreamcast so much but I could see clear indications of trouble from the start.

Anyway, we'll see what predictions come true. It's going to be an interesting year I'd wager. I still won't make an official prediction until the US launch of PSP.

Feels good, doesn't it? LOL.

You missed my point. Demand is current, potential isn't.

Ahhhh. Still, I thought it was assumed that PSP demand in the West is still in the developing stages...

 

[Amir0x]

Feels good, doesn't it? LOL.

I was just happy on the inside but what made it feel good was when like three threads popped up quoting my prediction and going "HOLY SHIT!11"

 

[Panajev2001a]

By next Christmas the PSP will all but be pulled from the US market.

Amir0x, you are living in a fantasy world. There are not enough people out there who will spend the 249.00 on a PSP to support the sale of software on it. Developers can't survive on a total user base of around 4 million technophile who will be buying it.

And the GBA crowd that bought their handhelds at 69 to 99 won't be buying the PSP. The PSP is doomed.

Playing with the Crystal Ball much lately ?

I think it is stuck in the "Negative News about Sony 24/7/365 without any concrete chace of happening minus uncontrollable cataclysm/natural disaster" mode.

 

[Amir0x]

Playing with the Crystal Ball much lately ?

I think it is stuck in the "Negative News about Sony 24/7/365 without any concrete chace of happening minus uncontrollable cataclysm/natural disatser".

My crystal ball is firmly tuned to the "Young celebrities posing nude for the first time in movies" channel.

 

[jarrod]

Ahhhh. Still, I thought it was assumed that PSP demand in the West is still in the developing stages...

Sure... PSP is a very desirable peice of hardware for around $200.

Playing with the Crystal Ball much lately ?

I think Crystal Meth might be more appropriate.

 

[Panajev2001a]

.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sure... PSP is a very desirable peice of hardware for around $200.



I think Crystal Meth might be more appropriate.

Well... how about both ?

 

[Particle Physicist]

I think you missed the point.

The DS has had many, many reports of dead pixels. The same is true of PSP.

just want to chime in that nintendo has been replacing DS with just one dead pixel... dont know what sony is gonna do yet.

 

[jarrod]

just want to chime in that nintendo has been replacing DS with just one dead pixel... dont know what sony is gonna do yet.

PSP onwers will be forced to wait for the inevitable class action lawsuit.

 

[Amir0x]

just want to chime in that nintendo has been replacing DS with just one dead pixel... dont know what sony is gonna do yet.

Yes, this is certainly true.

 

[hyp]

Amir0x rox.

 

[Amir0x]

Amir0x rox.

why thank you good sir for bumping this thread with such kind words ;P

 

[adam20]

You entirely miss the point.

I will refresh you: the PSP is entirely dependent on existing console gamers deciding that they want to spend large amount of their console gaming money on a handheld.

IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Wake up. Snap out of it. Get a clue.

Those console gamers would probably strap their XBox 3 to their backs before bothering with the PSP.

By that stupid logic people wont be buying the DS eighter! GET A CLUE you're wrong!

 

[imastalker co.]

As for 2 screens giving developers more options... well... that's shakey. But I do agree with you ever so slightly.

alright, let me rephrase that. "forces to developers to try new / different things."

That said, game design is neither improved nor made worse by including two screens.

well, that really depends. i feel it's only a matter of time (once again, wait for 2nd gen games) for us to see what developers can do when forced to develop on 2 screens.

A great DS game will be just as good as a great PSP game.

once again, give it some time.

now, i don't really care for football games, but here's an example. i know i'd sure as hell would rather play a Madden game that would let me draw my own plays on the fly, over one that wouldn't let me. even if the graphics aren't as good, the gameplay will totally be there, and well, the game will have an untouched level of stratedgy that no console / PSP version could touch.

just simple things like that, that'll make the whole dual screen thing take off. i mean, i just can't wait til we have our online games that have chat functions on the bottom screen (even though chances are that won't be needed because of the built in mic, it's just another example). 2 screens doesn't just have to mean games that get played on both screens. heck, some of the best future uses for 2 screens could very well just be for using both screens, to play the same game, in completely new ways. think of it as playing 2 different games at once, even though you're not.

in any case, i hope you get where im going with my point.

screen quality aside, i'd easily take new ways to play games, experience them, or just better interfaces alone, over well, a beautiful hi definition screen.

in any case, i'd totally love to go all out in this discussion, but unfortunately my broadband is down so i can only post during breaks at work.

 

[imastalker co.]

so like i've been saying. developers have never been forced to develop with 2 screens in mind. so i really do feel it's way to early to guess what direction this thing can go in. yeah, it might be just used for maps, or games that use up both screens to make up a big picture, but, well, development just started, and im sure developers still haven't been able to flesh out their ideas just quite yet. if anything, they just got their feet wet. so for the millionth time. wait for the second gen stuff, it's then that we'll get a good idea of what the developers have in mind for dual screen game development.

oh oh oh, and one more thing.

here's a quote that i always have to bring up during this kind of discussion.

"We can use 4 screen when played by 2 player, maybe even 6 screens, or 8 screens. The number of screens increases rapidily, and that kind of possibility of expansion makes us excited."

-Keiji Inafune (Mega Man, Onimusha)

see what i mean? it's just waaaay too early to have already come to any kind of conclusions. it's only a matter of time before dual screen gaming is clearly a notch above single screen games as far as what they can offer goes. be it gameplay, interface, etc.

 

[Amir0x]

alright, let me rephrase that. "forces to developers to try new / different things."

But it doesn't force them. At all. This is clearly represented by the fact that nearly every game on DS is derivative crap so far. I know your tagline - "Wait and see!", but that's irrelevant.

well, that really depends. i feel it's only a matter of time (once again, wait for 2nd gen games) for us to see what developers can do when forced to develop on 2 screens.

I believe that we'll see what developers can do in time too. That wasn't my point, though. I'll expand on it below.

now, i don't really care for football games, but here's an example. i know i'd sure as hell would rather play a Madden game that would let me draw my own plays on the fly, over one that wouldn't let me. even if the graphics aren't as good, the gameplay will totally be there, and well, the game will have an untouched level of stratedgy that no console / PSP version could touch.

Now I haven't played Madden DS, so I won't judge it. But based on every single review we have it is not even in the same ballpark quality as the console Maddens, regardless of some fly-by play drawing. Similarly, what you describe here does not "increase" the strategy. It just adds a layer of convenience. That's all good and well, but there are about a billion things that can be done in a Football that are far more important. And apparantely Madden DS does not fit these requisites. Now, maybe given more development time we'll see a sort of love given to it that can elevate the title. But my point was not whether you could do different things, but whether those different things make a title fundamentally better. And the answer to that question is most definitely no.

just simple things like that, that'll make the whole dual screen thing take off. i mean, i just can't wait til we have our online games that have chat functions on the bottom screen (even though chances are that won't be needed because of the built in mic, it's just another example). 2 screens doesn't just have to mean games that get played on both screens. heck, some of the best future uses for 2 screens could very well just be for using both screens, to play the same game, in completely new ways. think of it as playing 2 different games at once, even though you're not.

None of what you're describing here somehow enhances the funfactor of the gameplay. Or, in other words, it does not somehow give it the upperhand against "regular" gameplay. So, I'll state it again - a great DS game will still be just as great as a great PSP game. And this will, without doubt, hold true. On your example: If PSP wanted to go online, which it already can out of the box btw, all it would need to do is include its mic with the online game of choice and boom everything solved. And then it'll once again fall to a matter of preference - you will either like talking more or writing more. Or maybe then both games will have talking once again making the differences purely visceral.

What you're doing, and it's unfortunate, is gobbling up Nintendo's "it'll change gaming forever" line. It won't. It will create different experiences and these experiences will likely be extraordinarily fun. But they will not be any more fun than a really fun console game or PSP game. That's the point. "Different" != "Better"

in any case, i hope you get where im going with my point.

I do, I just think it's a bit misguided.

screen quality aside, i'd easily take new ways to play games, experience them, or just better interfaces alone, over well, a beautiful hi definition screen.

Not me. Because whereas dual screens never guarantee an enhancement in game experience, hi def screen always does. Because even on a shitty game the clarity and brightness will always be enhanced over the competition. This is an almost-automatic guarantee that no matter what, games will be enhanced on a visual level.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that there is an alternative. That's why I'm more excited about DS possibilities than PSP possibilities. I like different, even if that doesn't fundamentally enhance funfactor.

in any case, i'd totally love to go all out in this discussion, but unfortunately my broadband is down so i can only post during breaks at work.

It has been an interesting discussion.

 

[heidern]

That's the point. "Different" != "Better"

That's not entirely true. A good innovative game is better than an equally good but old game. Playing an innovative game can be an exploration in its own right, you don't have the been there done that feeling. The buzz of playing Mario 64 for the first time, that is far superior to anything you can get out of enjoying the visual quality of the psp. If developers really get into gear in taking advantage of the DS then it will offer better experiences than the psp which will not be so innovative, regardless of graphic quality. If nothing else, the DS has the chance to see true killer app games created, whereas with the psp, smart developers will make any killer app games they have up their sleeves for the more profitable ps2.

 

[Amir0x]

That's not entirely true. A good innovative game is better than an equally good but old game. Playing an innovative game can be an exploration in its own right, you don't have the been there done that feeling.

Also, not necessarily true. A game with great game mechanics and a game with innovative but still great game mechanics will probably still end up equally as good after the initial novelty of the innovation wears off. For instance, Katamari Damacy is great fun... it's totally innovative. But most people chose more familiar games for GOTY. Why is that?

The buzz of playing Mario 64 for the first time, that is far superior to anything you can get out of enjoying the visual quality of the psp.

Funny you mention this. Much of the initial "Buzz" of playing Mario 64 came from the visual experience; i.e. the technology.

Something the PSP offers a one-up on the DS.

If developers really get into gear in taking advantage of the DS then it will offer better experiences than the psp which will not be so innovative, regardless of graphic quality.

No, it'll just offer equal but different experiences.

If nothing else, the DS has the chance to see true killer app games created, whereas with the psp, smart developers will make any killer app games they have up their sleeves for the more profitable ps2.

"true killer app" vs. "fake killer app"?

I'm not following.

 

[heidern]

Funny you mention this. Much of the initial "Buzz" of playing Mario 64 came from the visual experience; i.e. the technology.

Something the PSP offers a one-up on the DS.

The buzz wasn't from a visual experience, it was from an unprecedented visual experience. The graphics on the psp are nothing new, they are just what you get from the ps2 or a bit worse. Even so, most of the buzz came from the freedom of 3D and the amazing control. Stuff that was new. How about Streetfighter 2? Or Super Mario Kart? Or even Tetris?

Also, not necessarily true. A game with great game mechanics and a game with innovative but still great game mechanics will probably still end up equally as good after the initial novelty of the innovation wears off. For instance, Katamari Damacy is great fun... it's totally innovative. But most people chose more familiar games for GOTY. Why is that?

Because those games weren't as good as Katamari, they were better.
The point is, if you get two games that are EQUALLY as good, the one that offers a new experience will be the one that offers a better experience. Sure once the initial novelty wears off it loses some of its lustre, but that novelty is a part of the experience. The novelty can define the experience. Sure a few years down the road if you replay games the once new game will seem only as good as the uninnovative game, but by then the point is moot.

"true killer app" vs. "fake killer app"?

I'm not following.

If you have a killer app, would you release it to the 1 million psp owners who buy around 3 games each, or would you release it to the 70 million ps2 owners who buy 6 games each? Fact is the likes of FF12 etc will all be released on consoles. The psp is almost inevitibly destined to be the ps2s little brother. Then in a year or so, when the next gen hits the psp games will look a major downgrade from consoles, so again it will striggle to see a killer app.

On the other hand, with the DS the whole point is different gameplay. With the touchscreen you can do stuff no one else can, and so if you have a killer app that needs the touchscreen, you HAVE to release it for the DS. No choice.

 

[-SRV-]

Also, not necessarily true. A game with great game mechanics and a game with innovative but still great game mechanics will probably still end up equally as good after the initial novelty of the innovation wears off. For instance, Katamari Damacy is great fun... it's totally innovative. But most people chose more familiar games for GOTY. Why is that?

Katamari was another GAF-hyped under delivering titles. Tape a dung beetle to half-@ssed Peter Max rip off art and you have Katamari. For $19.99, its ok.

Funny you mention this. Much of the initial "Buzz" of playing Mario 64 came from the visual experience; i.e. the technology.

Something the PSP offers a one-up on the DS.



No, it'll just offer equal but different experiences.

I think the scale tips on the DS side as innovative input > than early PS2-ish level graphics.

 

[-SRV-]

The buzz wasn't from a visual experience, it was from an unprecedented visual experience. The graphics on the psp are nothing new, they are just what you get from the ps2 or a bit worse. Even so, most of the buzz came from the freedom of 3D and the amazing control. Stuff that was new. How about Streetfighter 2? Or Super Mario Kart? Or even Tetris?



Because those games weren't as good as Katamari, they were better.
The point is, if you get two games that are EQUALLY as good, the one that offers a new experience will be the one that offers a better experience. Sure once the initial novelty wears off it loses some of its lustre, but that novelty is a part of the experience. The novelty can define the experience. Sure a few years down the road if you replay games the once new game will seem only as good as the uninnovative game, but by then the point is moot.



If you have a killer app, would you release it to the 1 million psp owners who buy around 3 games each, or would you release it to the 70 million ps2 owners who buy 6 games each? Fact is the likes of FF12 etc will all be released on consoles. The psp is almost inevitibly destined to be the ps2s little brother. Then in a year or so, when the next gen hits the psp games will look a major downgrade from consoles, so again it will striggle to see a killer app.

On the other hand, with the DS the whole point is different gameplay. With the touchscreen you can do stuff no one else can, and so if you have a killer app that needs the touchscreen, you HAVE to release it for the DS. No choice.

Excellent points.