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[bishoptl]

http://www.mytelus.com/movies/article.do?articleID=1755623&

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A filmmaker who was the great-grandnephew of painter Vincent van Gogh was slain on an Amsterdam street Tuesday after receiving death threats over a movie he made criticizing the treatment of women under Islam.
A 26-year-old suspect with dual Dutch-Moroccan nationality was arrested after a shootout with officers that left him wounded, police said.

Filmmaker Theo van Gogh, 47, had been threatened after the August airing of the movie Submission, which he made with a right-wing Dutch politician who had renounced the Islamic faith of her birth. Police had kept watch on Van Gogh's house as protection immediately after the film's release, but it was dropped because there was no concrete evidence of a threat, public prosecutor Leo de Wit said.

In a recent radio interview, Van Gogh - great-grandson of the brother of Vincent van Gogh, who was also named Theo - dismissed the threats and called the movie "the best protection I could have. It's not something I worry about."

Authorities had felt the more likely target of revenge attacks was the film's writer, Somali-born Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of parliament who frequently has outraged fellow Muslims by criticizing Islamic customs and the failure of Muslim families to adopt Dutch ways. She has been and remains under police protection. Police said Van Gogh's killer shot and stabbed his victim and left a note on his body. They would not reveal the contents of the note.

 

[Justin Bailey]

So yeah I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Islam. Are the misogynistic views they practice actually a staple of the religion? Or is just some short-sited "interpretations" made by some of the middle-eastern countries?

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

He was killed in a very brutal way, the news completely overshadowed the US elections over here.
The guys shot he first cut his throat and while Theo was on the ground he bend over him and stabbed 2 knives in his chest, with pieces over paper with islamic verses calling for a Jihad.
He stabbed the paper on his chest with the knives.

This all happened in broad daylight in the centre of Amsterdam very close to a school.
Our country is in complete state of shock right now, some people even started heavy discussion on the street with muslims.
For the love of god, please don't let this beautifull country slip any futher.

So first this murder, then Bush elected, somehow i don't think this will be a great month.

Here is a picture that was on the newspaper over here, it shows the victim.
If it is to gruesome please take it off.

 

[Azih]

First off there's no possible link about this. It's what happened (Disclaimer: Ok, I don't *know* if that's what happened, but I will be shocked to the extreme if Islamists aren't responsible).

Secondly Justin Bailey: It's not misogyny, it is extreme defensiveness about anybody who dares mock our religion (and for most of these people QUESTIONING the religion is pretty much seen as mocking it). Sort of a 'How DARE HE! KILL HIM". It's the same exact mental thinking that led to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.


Edit: Since 9/11 it's gotten worse because the dam has burst so to speak and any crazy with a knife is inspired to become an Al-Qaeda copycat.

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

The dutch news and goverment confirmed that the guy was an islamic fundamentalist, the even arrested 8 of his fellow retards.
These guys are nuts, i know van Gogh used to call islamic fundamentalists "goatfuckers"in public and he even called a leader of belgiums extreme islamic organisation AEL "Alla's pimp"
But that's still no reason to slaughter someone because of his opinion.

We have the freedom of speech in the Netherlands, and there trying to shut is up.

 

[belgurdo]

Armageddon is starting

Bush back in office is one sign

This dude is #2

 

[bishoptl]

Well Azih, I'm 99.999% positive the murder was related to Van Gogh's views on Islam, but until more facts appear I'm hesitant to toss around blame willy-nilly.

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

Well Azih, I'm 99.999% positive the murder was related to Van Gogh's views on Islam, but until more facts appear I'm hesitant to toss around blame willy-nilly.

Dude there is no way this will be related to anything else then muslim fundamentalism.
The goverment already released info about his motives. He is a fundamentalist.
The guy is 26 years old and obsessed with the islam.
A dutch tv station even figured out his ID, his name is Mohammed B.
Even part of his passport is online.

 

[RiZ III]

Yep, concentration camps in a few years.

 

[Falch]

Yeah, this is really fucked up. I never imagined it would have such an impact here in Holland, everybody is talking about it, including our prime minister and our queen. I wonder what is going to happen next.

 

[belgurdo]

Yeah, this is really fucked up. I never imagined it would have such an impact here in Holland, everybody is talking about it, including our prime minister and our queen. I wonder what is going to happen next.

You rang?

 

[rastex]

Uh... what the hell kind of subject is that Bishop?

Murder - possible Islamic link? How does a religion have anything to do with a murder, I mean a religion is an abstract concept that does no actions by itself. Your subject is ridiculous and just further fuels the feelings of hate and division.

 

[Falch]

You rang?

Yeah, that would make the armageddon complete.

 

[Slo]

Uh... what the hell kind of subject is that Bishop?

Murder - possible Islamic link? How does a religion have anything to do with a murder, I mean a religion is an abstract concept that does no actions by itself. Your subject is ridiculous and just further fuels the feelings of hate and division.

Uh, the motivation for the murder was religion....

 

[radioheadrule83]

Yep, concentration camps in a few years.

I'm all fucking for it.

Be aware here that I'm not talking about death camps as such. Anyone who preaches or acts on religious hate should be removed from civilization if they display this kind of zeal and senseless disregard for human life. Let their God save them while they rot on a seemingly eternal death row. I'm not just talking about Muslims. The growing connection between religion and state in America is disturbing too. They talk fucking jihad - bring it on. No divine power would see people like this win anyway.


edit: when is the straw going to break the camels back? How long before we find dead Muslims bathed in pigs blood with Judo-Christian verses tatooed on them? Or before atheists and orthodox religious people turn to their own more public violent extremism out of fear?

 

[Falch]

I'm all fucking for it.

Be aware here that I'm not talking about death camps as such. Anyone who preaches or acts on religious hate should be removed from civilization if they display this kind of zeal and senseless disregard for human life. Let their God save them while they rot on a seemingly eternal death row. I'm not just talking about Muslims. The growing connection between religion and state in America is disturbing too. They talk fucking jihad - bring it on. No divine power would see people like this win anyway.

If we (civilized world) would give into that, it would make us no better than the people we would put in those camps. That's the eternal struggle in a free and democratic world, to not resort to the same grueling methods that are used against us.

I'm must agree though about the further insertion of religion in the US government and its actions, it's very worrying. History has shown that no good can come from this.

 

[bishoptl]

Uh... what the hell kind of subject is that Bishop?

Murder - possible Islamic link? How does a religion have anything to do with a murder, I mean a religion is an abstract concept that does no actions by itself. Your subject is ridiculous and just further fuels the feelings of hate and division.

Fairly self-evident.

Police said Van Gogh's killer shot and stabbed his victim and left a note on his body. They would not reveal the contents of the note.

With Raziel's confirmation of the Islamic-related details (a note calling for jihad tacked into the victim's chest with a knife, for starters), it's safe to say that my original thread title was accurate and not a call for hatred against all Muslims.

In the future, please refrain from commenting if you can't be bothered to do a modicum of research on the subject at hand, ie. READING THE FUCKING LINK PROVIDED IN THE ORIGINAL POST.

Thanks man, much obliged.

 

[Chrono]

I'm all fucking for it.

Be aware here that I'm not talking about death camps as such. Anyone who preaches or acts on religious hate should be removed from civilization if they display this kind of zeal and senseless disregard for human life. Let their God save them while they rot on a seemingly eternal death row. I'm not just talking about Muslims. The growing connection between religion and state in America is disturbing too. They talk fucking jihad - bring it on. No divine power would see people like this win anyway.

The problem with this is that you can't really point out who is an "extremist" muslim objectively. It's impossible. There might be muslims living in holland who support this, but care too much about their jobs/lives to actually do it. There might be others who just support it but pretend no to. There might be others who don't support it, but are not exactly fuming with rage... and might have a bit of sympathy for the muslims that "defended" their faith.... and it goes on.

Extremist will ALWAYS be there-- as long as there is religion. Even if 100% of dutch muslims don't support this there WILL be ones in future generations that will-- those that will read the qor'an and interpret it the same way as the terrorist do. hell forget about being extreme enough to be a terrorist; the idea that people who don’t subscribe to your religion are sub-human and not as "good" as you are will always be there (especially in muslim communities considering the role of religion in their culture) and that’s all you need really. You just have to believe in it stronger then others do.

 

[Hooker]

Hmm, I surprised this even caught the light of day in countries outside of Europe. The whole nation is in a state of shock at the moment, mainly due to some fairly unrealistic happenings all around.

First the murder of Theo van Gogh, the death of our most succesful cyclist and the re-election of Bush. Just a very surreal day. If I didn't have to go to work I would have gone to Amsterdam as well and display my anger along with the other 20.000+ people.

Being killed if one thing, but at this way due the way you think and act is something else. I just hope this won't escalate into a full-scale war against muslim people

 

[radioheadrule83]

The problem with this is that you can't really point out who is an "extremist" muslim objectively. It's impossible. There might be muslims living in holland who support this, but care too much about their jobs/lives to actually do it. There might be others who just support it but pretend no to. There might be others who don't support it, but are not exactly fuming with rage... and might have a bit of sympathy for the muslims that "defended" their faith.... and it goes on.

Extremist will ALWAYS be there-- as long as there is religion. Even if 100% of dutch muslims don't support this there WILL be ones in future generations that will-- those that will read the qor'an and interpret it the same way as the terrorist do. hell forget about being extreme enough to be a terrorist; the idea that people who don’t subscribe to your religion are sub-human and not as "good" as you are will always be there (especially in muslim communities considering the role of religion in their culture) and that’s all you need really. You just have to believe in it stronger then others do.

What I'm saying is that we have to minimize extremism, and deter as many as possible from taking it up. We're not doing this very well in the middle east. But that something like this can be allowed to happen in Europe is a disgrace. Let's not pretend this is isolated. Militants are on the rise. And where you get religious extremism, there will eventually be a countermeasure movement - be it in the form of nationalists or hate groups. The fear driven by the war on terror is acting as a catalyst for both sides. Non-existant immigration policy is nurturing introverted nationalist/right-wing views, some of which could end up being more dangerous than the terrorist threat itself. I am personally just dissatisfied with our tough talk and inaction. The government has yet to prove to me how bombing miles of desert several countries apart from myself, has any effect on my safety. The UK let Hamza incite hatred for months, probably years before they acted -- and now he faces serious charges. But is the serious damage already done? Will he get serious punishment? The western world is probably at its most united in geopolitical terms, even if at times it doesn't seem it... it does strive to work as a cohesive whole. Divisions along religious boundaries are the next true threat IMO. And political correctness is stifling our ability to combat that threat. I'm not talking about holding people without evidence or witholding due process... I'm talking about dealing out SERIOUS punishment, for serious crime that only serves to destabilise society. If you preach anything but peace in the name of God, then you should not be living among the peace loving majority. By all means, if there is quantifiable intelligence on hate mongerers, it should be put before court and these people should, following the last fair treatment they ever receive, be therein deprived of their human rights for conspiring to remove ours.

Sadly the west is too busy being peacefully impotent to do anything about it. This kind of appeasement will draw out suffering on all sides IMO. Maybe this is a little alarmist in response, but I'm just sick of it really. It just seems rediculous to me.

 

[rastex]

I'm fully aware of the contents of the letter and motivations behind the murder as expressed by previous posters, but that still doesn't justify the wording of your subject line. Some may see my reproach over simple wording like that as extremely anal, but that's because they've already internalized Islamic as meaning a certain group of people. I mean, why couldn't you have said "Dutch murder religiously motivated"? Instead you choose to link the murder DIRECTLY with Islam (or the possibility anyway).

You may not even be doing this consciously as you're just following what the Western media as a whole does. When it comes to crimes perpetrated by muslims the headline always contains the world Muslim or Islam, but when a crime is committed by someone of another faith, the details of their religion are left to the body of the article. There is a difference. And your wording is just so blatant I had to call you on it.

 

[RiZ III]

^IAWTP

 

[Matlock]

Holy crap, that's...insane.

'course, the first thing I thought when I clicked this was "Is Uwe Boll Dutch?"

 

[rastex]

the idea that people who don’t subscribe to your religion are sub-human and not as "good" as you are will always be there (especially in muslim communities considering the role of religion in their culture) and that’s all you need really. You just have to believe in it stronger then others do.

More disinformation. Nowhere in the Quran does it state that non-believers are less than human. In fact it's a fundamental Muslim belief that all people are born in a state of belief and through their environment have their beliefs changed. That's why converts are actually called reverts in Islam, since they're coming back to their original belief. But despite having their beliefs changed they don't lose their humanity for crying out loud.

 

[Chrono]

When it comes to crimes perpetrated by muslims the headline always contains the world Muslim or Islam, but when a crime is committed by someone of another faith, the details of their religion are left to the body of the article. There is a difference. And your wording is just so blatant I had to call you on it.

If this was motivated by something else (drug deal, whatever) then there's no point in mentioning Islam. In this case the motive of the crime is religion, and so it should be mentioned whether it's Islam or Christinanity. Especially after 9-11 --any murder motivated by islam has broader implications then any other murder right now.

 

[iyox]

. I'm talking about dealing out SERIOUS punishment, for serious crime that only serves to destabilise society.

I have to come out and say it..... The very real problem with the current islamic fundamentalist movement is they reallly care nothing for their own well being in most cases. Punishment really wouldn't curtail this in any way. It would either be seen as "attacks from the infidels", or nothing of any substance sense in many cases these people are willing to die for what they believe. The only way for this to work out peacefully is for mutual understanding. Unfortunately that is a very far-fetched premise ...so yeah we're all fucked some where down the line, after a couple billion deaths or so.

 

[bishoptl]

Good God rastex, you're unbelievable.

If the note had quotes from the Old Testament written on it, I would have written "Christian Fundie link", and you wouldn't have blinked. But I'm supposed to ignore the Koran quotations as a link to Islam? Are you high? You must be high if you think I'm not going to call it exactly as the facts have been laid out. Anything else would be 1) disingenous and 2) pandering.

Dead guy with Bible quotations stuck to his gut with a knife = fundie link
Dead guy with Islamic quotations stuck to his gut with a knife = Islamic link
Dead guy with the Watchtower stuck to his gut with a knife = Jehovah's Witnesses link

If the facts offend your sensibilities, that's tough shit.

I mean, why couldn't you have said "Dutch murder religiously motivated"? Instead you choose to link the murder DIRECTLY with Islam (or the possibility anyway).

See above.

 

[Guileless]

edit: when is the straw going to break the camels back? How long before we find dead Muslims bathed in pigs blood with Judo-Christian verses tatooed on them?

It's happened elsewhere. Some Nepalese (who are Hindus I believe) stormed and burned a mosque back in September after Iraqi insurgents--who according to JetSetHero and gofreak are morally indistinguishable from coaltion forces--beheaded 12 Nepalese hostages.

Hard to imagine something like that happening in the West though. Nothing similar happened after 9/11, as bad as that was.

 

[ManaByte]

Dead guy with the Watchtower stuck to his gut with a knife = Jehovah's Witnesses link
.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Chrono]

More disinformation. Nowhere in the Quran does it state that non-believers are less than human.

It says that they will burn in hell for eternity. That pretty much implies the same thing. My whole point was not on what the Qur'an literally says but on the attitudes that motivate those extremists. This goes for most religions btw. Except the threat of dutch christianns murdering mullahs who call jews/westerners pigs and infidels is not big as the threat of al-qaida bombing a nightclub of infidels engaging in what allah has forbidden.

In fact it's a fundamental Muslim belief that all people are born in a state of belief and through their environment have their beliefs changed. That's why converts are actually called reverts in Islam, since they're coming back to their original belief.

I'm sorry but that's disgusting. Calling converts "reverts" is such an arrogant attitude. This is exactly like saying anybody who has not "reverted" is not "complete" or whatever. The same thing goes for people who believe we need to be 'saved' by Jesus before going to heaven.

 

[Ripclawe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4594303,00.html

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Police arrested eight more suspected Islamic radicals Wednesday in the slaying of a Dutch filmmaker who criticized Muslim customs. Lawmakers questioned why authorities hadn't kept tabs on the alleged killer, who had a record of violent crime and contacts with a group under surveillance.

The arrests were made in the 24 hours since Theo van Gogh was slain while cycling down an Amsterdam street Tuesday - believed to be the first Islamic terrorist attack in the Netherlands.

The Justice Ministry said the suspect in the murder of the 47-year-old filmmaker - a distant relative of painter Vincent Van Gogh - is a Muslim radical associated with Islamic fundamentalists on a terrorist watch list.

Interior Minister Johan Remkes confirmed that the suspect was known to have associated with a group of 150 radicals who are watched day and night by the Dutch secret service for fear they may commit a terrorist act.

Between this and Pim Fortuyn, It will get really ugly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3980371.stm

 

[CrunchyB]

Between this and Pim Fortuyn, It will get really ugly.

Oh yeah. Theo was spending his last days finishing up his new movie -about the murder on Fortuyn.

His recent short movie Submission was highly critical about the Islam. If there's one sinlge reason he was murdered, this is it:

The film seeks to highlight the mistreatment of women born to Muslim families. The film was shown on the Dutch public broadcasting network (VPRO) on August 29, 2004. The film displays the bodies of Muslim women who have been beaten. The bodies are used in the film as a canvas for verses from the Quran used by Muslim to determine husband-wife relations. The women include one that suffers wife beating and one that is raped by her uncle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

 

[rastex]

Dead guy with Bible quotations stuck to his gut with a knife = fundie link
Dead guy with Islamic quotations stuck to his gut with a knife = Islamic link
Dead guy with the Watchtower stuck to his gut with a knife = Jehovah's Witnesses link

I'll just have to take your word for that then.

It says that they will burn in hell for eternity. That pretty much implies the same thing.

No, it doesn't at all. The reason for punishment in the afterlife is that people have a consious choice and don't. If they were "sub-human" and thus didn't have a choice in their beliefs then that wouldn't make any sense.

My whole point was not on what the Qur'an literally says but on the attitudes that motivate those extremists. This goes for most religions btw. Except the threat of dutch christianns murdering mullahs who call jews/westerners pigs and infidels is not big as the threat of al-qaida bombing a nightclub of infidels engaging in what allah has forbidden.

Except that there's been 2 terrorist bombings of nightclubs in the past 2 years, and anti-Muslim sentiment is widespread across all of Europe including Holland link

I'm sorry but that's disgusting. Calling converts "reverts" is such an arrogant attitude. This is exactly like saying anybody who has not "reverted" is not "complete" or whatever. The same thing goes for people who believe we need to be 'saved' by Jesus before going to heaven.

Again you're totally twisting the words just to suit your prejudiced agenda.

 

[Chrono]

Ok. Let me say it in another way.

There are SOME muslims who interpret the Qur'an like, say al-qaida or the man that murdered the director, and THERE IS NO WAY TO STOP ANY MUSLIM FROM INTERPRETITING THE QOR'AN LIKE THEY DID. That's the reality. I'm NOT talking about whether islam is a tolerant religion or not. I'm talking about the MOTIVES of those extremist and one of them -- EVEN IF NOT JUSTIFIED -- is hate for non-muslims and non-muslims way of life ( which -- TO THEM -- is the only right way because it's from allah).

Again you're totally twisting the words just to suit your prejudiced agenda.

I talked about how there will always be extremist because there's an interpretation of islam that denounces other faiths/life styles... and you assumed I was talking about islam itself and replied with your own interpretation. ok. [/rolleyes]

I'm sorry if real life is not as nice as you want it to be.

What’s funny here is that ANYTHING negative about islam/muslims probably looks prejudiced to you. I don’t blame you—prejudiced/racist are obviously the first to jump on such news and criticisms. However, facts are facts. Just because they say it does not mean it has to be wrong. I remember somebody was saying GAF was agreeing with bin laden and that it was disgusting… then somebody replied by asking if bin laden said the sky is blue would you disagree?

 

[Deg]

Oh yeah. Theo was spending his last days finishing up his new movie -about the murder on Fortuyn.

His recent short movie Submission was highly critical about the Islam. If there's one sinlge reason he was murdered, this is it:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

Doubt its based on any one matter alone, there have already been stuff in the media on many subjects everywhere. It was hatred pure and simple. That was the motive for killing the guy. They saw him as an enemy evidently. Interesting he is related to Van Gogh. That could explain afew things as he is a well known person in the country.

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

What's even more disturbing is how well organised these guys are.
Right after the muder Ayaan Hirshi Ali, who is hated by muslims because of her statements toward islam and the right of women under the islam, she was taken to a safehouse in some secret place.
She was under very tight police and secret service security.
But the night after the murder, a muslim guy just knocked on the door and slipped a letter under the door.
The letter said that Theo is gone and you are next.
How the hell do these guys get the info. It's really disturbing.

And why oh why can the AIVD (dutch secret service) keep tracks of all these guys for months and months and not arrest them. It was clear that they were a dangerous.
First someone has to get murdered and suddenly they can arrest 8 of these guys and discover the whole network, while they knew for months what these guys were up to.

I say import some ex KGB members, and let them fix it in russian style.

Ow, and don't bother to send these guys to a dutch prison, send them home to there ratholes and see if there gonna be so cool when there in there prisons.

 

[norinrad21]

His colums always rocked, he was the sort of guy who always tells them like they are, he was always direct and to the point and i loved that, most of it were funny too.

I personally hope the circle jerk authorities over here get their shit together starting with a crack down on all fundamentalists, smoke every one of them out of their holes.

I'm not a racist prick or anything like that but the muslim community here in Amsterdam west needs to be relocated, spread them all over the city across white neighborhoods.

If nothing happens now, Ayaan Hirshi Ali would probably be next, i fucking hate my government and their pussy do gooder attitude, they just sit there while these fundamentalists disrupt our way of life.

Everyone who doesn't believe in Allah deserves to die isn't exactly something that our government should see as just an isolated incident which some of the idiots in the parliament have been trying to sell the public.

 

[RiZ III]

Would someone mind explaining what an Islamist is? From what I understand, its the most retarded term the media has come up with.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Planning to send your children to 'white' schools ehh?

 

[PS2 KID]

Way past time to transform Islam into something that can coexist with the rest of the world. They can read this book,The Trouble with Islam, online. The Arabic version can be read online for free.

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

You know what's really weird.

The murder on van Gogh was excactly 911 days after the murder on Pim Fortuyn.

 

[RiZ III]

Please, if Christianity could coexist in this world after going through the dark ages, anything is possible.

 

[Azih]

Alright I'm going to disagree strongly with two posters here.

Rastex. Bish has already taken apart your attack on his wording (dammit, the guy did it for RELIGIOUS REASONS, he stuck a note calling for JIHAD on the victim for pete's sake). The PROBLEM here is twofold. First off you think muslims are being singled out here. They're not. Muslims are just the ones who freaking quote passages from the Quran and shout allahuakbar while sawing people's heads off making it *impossible* for anyone with any amount of sense to see it as anything EXCEPT religously motivated murder. And yes, if anyother religous group did something like that then they would be treated the same way. Take a look at the murder of John Lennon for example. Get rid of the chip on your shoulder and blame the person who's really responsible for this. The god damned bastard who STABBED a guy in the chest and KILLED him in cold blood for daring to be critical of his religion.


Chrono. In your first post. I agree with the first paragraph, but not the second .

the idea that people who don’t subscribe to your religion are sub-human and not as "good" as you are will always be there (especially in muslim communities considering the role of religion in their culture)

It's completely off-base in fact. Islam is big on the idea that everyone in the world is equal in the eyes of god (then you get judged on Judgement Day). Muslim's view on non muslims isn't one of them being 'sub-human' at ALL. It's more like 'eh, maybe they'll see the light and convert, if not, God will take care of it on Judgement Day'. The trigger and motivation here (and with Salman Rushdie as well) is that nobody and I mean NOBODY has the right to insult, make fun, or mock Islam in any way. Don't forget Salman Rushide was muslim when he wrote the Satanic Verses (he didn't renounce Islam until a few years after all of that fool fatwa nonsense), none of the extremists gave a damn. OMG HE CALLED THE VERSES SATANIC, KILL HIM!.


Minor quibble: ' (especially in muslim communities considering the role of religion in their culture)'. Should be 'cultures', there are a billion+ of us, kinda impossible to have just one culture.

 

[Azih]

Way past time to transform Islam into something that can coexist with the rest of the world. They can read this book,The Trouble with Islam, online. The Arabic version can be read online for free.

Also here. The problem with that book (er I just read the intro in a bookstore, really should pick up the rest), is that generalises like crazy. And the authour doesn't make any distinction at all between the actions of muslims and Islam. She knows she doesn't and she says why in the intro/first few pages but I disagree with her completely on that one.

But yeah, should read the whole book before making any FINAL JUDGEMENTS!!1!

 

[karasu]

I like how people say religion sucks as if it's the only orthodoxy there is. As if a Darwinist in a position of power wouldn't make decisons from a darwinist frame of mind. Or Republicans and Democrats from their respective party views. Religion isn't what causes problems. Ideas and emotions do.

 

[Particle Physicist]

The murder on van Gogh was excactly 911 days after the murder on Pim Fortuyn.

who is Pim Fortuyn ? i must have missed this news.

 

[DarthWoo]

Not sure if this was posted here yet or not. Search of "christian atheist" turned nothing up, and for some reason, using ctrl+F searches within pages crashes the browser quite frequently.

http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm

TAYLOR: Death is result of debate about God

October 28, 2004





BY JOEL THURTELL
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER




A Taylor police dispatcher took the call at precisely 12:44 p.m. on Oct. 18.

A 49-year-old man said he'd just blasted a man with a revolver and a shotgun because the man said he didn't believe in God.

The dispatcher said the alleged shooter told him he'd just shot "the devil himself" and was still armed and standing over the body of the 62-year-old victim "in case he moved."

"I want to make sure he's gone," the alleged shooter told the dispatcher.

The dispatcher asked the suspect how many times he shot the victim.

"Hopefully enough," was the suspect's chilling reply, according to the dispatcher.

When police arrived in the 15600 block of McGuire, they could see the victim seated on a living room couch with major trauma to his head, officers said.

They said they were certain he was dead. He was.

Lying on a hallway floor was a black 12-gauge shotgun. Two spent shotgun shells lay on the floor nearby.

Later, police found a revolver with five spent cartridge casings.

On the way to the police station, the suspect told police "he did not want to deal with anyone that did not believe in God," according to the report.

The report also indicated that the suspect and the victim knew each other, although their relationship was unclear.

The suspect said he was an Eagle Scout, the report said.

The suspect said the victim had told him there was nothing he could say that would convince the 62-year-old to believe in God.

Following this discussion, the suspect said, he went into another room and removed his shirt. Then he shaved his face.

He tried once more to convince the victim to believe in God, but this time, he had the shotgun.

"How long would it take you to believe in God?" the suspect said he asked the victim.

"Not until I hear Gabriel blow his horn," the victim allegedly replied, while tipping his hat.

That's when the suspect shot him.

"I did it because he is evil; he was not a believer," the suspect told police.

The suspect said the victim "has been locked up most of his life."

Michigan Department of Corrections records indicate the victim was on probation for a drug conviction.

At the police station, the suspect commented that he believed there is a God.

Then, looking at the floor, he seemed to have second thoughts: "Maybe there's not," he said.




Contact JOEL THURTELL at 248-351-3296 or thurtell@freepress.com

Summary: An ever so tolerant christian shoots an atheist when he fails to convert him.

 

[Hooker]

Tomorrow, Netherlands largest newspaper "De Telegraaf" will announce a new factor in this murder that we could not possibly phantom ourselves. All arrows point to Al-Qaida involvement (which I highly doubt though)



God knows what happens if this IS the case

 

[Ripclawe]

Tomorrow, Netherlands largest newspaper "De Telegraaf" will announce a new factor in this murder that we could not possibly phantom ourselves. All arrows point to Al-Qaida involvement (which I highly doubt though)



God knows what happens if this IS the case

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L046851.htm

AMSTERDAM, Nov 4 (Reuters) - Dutch authorities are investigating a possible indirect link between the suspected killer of a filmmaker critical of Islam and last year's Casablanca bombings, a security source said on Thursday.

The source confirmed a report in the Algemeen Dagblad daily that the suspect, identified by Dutch media as Mohammed B., had connections with people who were questioned after the May 2003 suicide bombings in the Moroccan city which killed 45.

 

[Azrael]

Reality check to people who would like to believe Islamic terrorism is solely a reaction to poverty and oppression in the Middle East: laugh all you want, but they really *do* hate freedom. They didn't kill Theo Van Gogh because of the victimization of the Palestinians, they killed him because they do not believe in a tolerant, pluralistic, open world. They believe in a world in which anyone that goes against their Wahhabi interpretation of Islam should be killed.

I'm not saying that's the only root cause, but it is very much part of what motivates these people.