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[Saturnman]

Ever heard of smuggling and black markets, Loki?

At least they most likely didn't get their weapons at a gun show or filed up a bogus form at the corner gun store.

 

[Loki]

Ever heard of smuggling and black markets, Loki?

Of course I have; then again, I figured you of all people would be smart enough to understand the point I was getting at. Obviously not. You're slipping, Ham, you're slipping.

 

[Azih]

I'm against using public funds so that children of immigrants can learn about their parents' country and language. That's basically my beef against multiculturalism. All those things can be done at home.

I don't want to force immigrants to be Christians (I wouldn't want that on my enemies either ) or ignore their origins. To me, that's part of their private life and is nobody's business.

Hey here in Ontario we barely fund sports in high school, Heritage Languages is far down the list of priorities.

 

[FightyF]

And people complain about how Americans react to things? Sheesh. And they (other western nations) are always calling us savages. After 9/11, there were no mosques burned, not even here in NY.

There have been mosques attacked in NY, and during the same day two Muslim girls were attacked on the way home from school, during the days after 9/11. Muslims have recieved death threats on a constant basis after 9/11.

In the months after 9/11 Muslims leaving mosques have been shot at, Mosques have been vandalized and a bomb was placed in a Muslim playground full of kids.

You may think that nothing's happened because it's not reported on CNN, but do some research and you'll find much has happenned.

But we are straying from the topic here. BTW, I'm not disputing your point about Americans being more tolerant...I personally believe that's the case myself, I'm just pointing out that there are wackos in the US as well who have been quite active.

As far as who's been banned from the US, a recent and obvious example is Tariq Ramadan. Read it up.

Theo Van Gogh was doing nothing more than criticising Islam, and for that he got killed. Which kinda justifies his criticism of it in my opinion.

Or do you mean criticize Muslims. I think he has every right to criticize Muslims. Islam is another matter. Once you blame Islam for all that is wrong in the World, it will cause more hate than to blame Muslims who are obviously stuck in their own little World.

And now a quote from the CNN article...

Van Gogh had received death threats after the release of his most recent film about the treatment of women under Islam.

That is what I'm talking about Loki.

Obviously, we both agree that Van Gogh was murdered. What Van Gogh did would be considered a possible crime in Canada, but he wouldn't ever even face the chance of the death penalty. In the US it's a bit different...they would just ban the guy. I just think the same laws should apply to the Netherlands.

Another obvious point is that the Dutch have to crack down on Muslim Radicals within their own borders, to prevent anything like this from happening again. It can be a lesson for other Euro countries that haven't been victim of this type of violence as well, do something now before it's too late. Of course, don't do it Bush style (where you throw freedom out the window), there are other better ways.

Oh, and sorry for bumping up this old post...Halo 2 took up a lot of my time and I'm starting my HL2 MOD.

 

[Ripclawe]

Obviously, we both agree that Van Gogh was murdered. What Van Gogh did would be considered a possible crime in Canada, but he wouldn't ever even face the chance of the death penalty. In the US it's a bit different...they would just ban the guy. I just think the same laws should apply to the Netherlands.

The US cannot and would not "ban" the guy, free speech and all that. He would be boycotted and not be associated with, but other than that, he would be fine.

Or do you mean criticize Muslims. I think he has every right to criticize Muslims. Islam is another matter. Once you blame Islam for all that is wrong in the World, it will cause more hate than to blame Muslims who are obviously stuck in their own little World.

He criticized Islam and his death "confirmed" to people that Islam is dangerous because of the actions of a few radicals, he has every right to do so and to call on banning the criticizism of a religion because a few crackpots will go off is offensive and just puts a bad light on an overall group. You want to hide.

Another obvious point is that the Dutch have to crack down on Muslim Radicals within their own borders, to prevent anything like this from happening again. It can be a lesson for other Euro countries that haven't been victim of this type of violence as well, do something now before it's too late. Of course, don't do it Bush style (where you throw freedom out the window), there are other better ways.

oh really? You have seen the proposals and actions that have been taken in Europe already? It makes the all the whining of the patriot act look idiotic. I do place blame on the European Muslim community for all this overheated rhetoric. I said that if they took the initiative to help drive out the radical parts into the open and be in front of this, it would be a lot better, instead most of the "moderate" groups lashed out and demanded that Europeans cater to them has if it was some obligation. Now the backlash is growing not only because of inaction in Europe, but around the world in different hot spots like Thailand, and China.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c...9/international1436EST0563.DTL&type=printable

One of the most popular politicians in the Netherlands said Friday the country's democracy is under threat and called for a five-year halt to non-Western immigration in the wake of the killing of a Dutch filmmaker by a suspected Muslim radical.

"We are a Dutch democratic society. We have our own norms and values," right-wing lawmaker Geert Wilders told The Associated Press in an interview. "If you chose radical Islam you can leave, and if you don't leave voluntarily then we will send you away. This is the only message possible."

"The Netherlands has been too tolerant to intolerant people for too long," he said. "We should not import a retarded political Islamic society to our country. There is nothing to be ashamed of to say this. It's not Islam. I speak out against the facts."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...9/international1346EST0547.DTL&type=printable

European Union justice and interior ministers agreed Friday that new immigrants to the 25-nation bloc should be required to learn local languages, and to adhere to general "European values" that will guide them toward better integration.

Dutch immigration minister Rita Verdonk, who chaired the meeting, said all countries agreed to make integrating newcomers a priority, considering the growing ethnic tensions as EU nations struggle to absorb a steady stream of poor, mostly Muslim immigrants.

Just this month in the Netherlands, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical unleashed a wave of attacks against mosques, churches and religious schools in a country once famed for its tolerance.

Tensions also rose in Belgium, where authorities arrested a suspect Friday accused of sending death threats to a senator of Moroccan heritage who criticized radical Muslims.
Many Muslims have bristled at new rules targeting immigrants that they say amount to racial profiling that is insensitive of their religion.

Yet incoming EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini told reporters in Rome that integration had to be an essential part of an EU policy.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1402802,00.html

Leading German politicians have said Muslims will have to integrate themselves better if they wish to remain in the country. This coincides with conservatives' calls to emphasize patriotism and Christian values.
Speaking at his party's convention in Munich, Bavarian Premier and Christian Social Union (CSU) leader Edmund Stoiber demanded a clear commitment from immigrants to the basic values of German society.
"Yes to openness and tolerance, no to Islamist head scarves," Stoiber told delegates, who unanimously voted against a Turkish EU membership and for cutting social welfare benefits for foreigners who are unwilling to integrate.

Stoiber (photo), who called on young Germans to reclaim "traditional German values" such as a willingness to perform, discipline, punctuality, a sense of duty and politeness, received backing from several other conservative leaders.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder meanwhile also called on Muslims to better integrate themselves in German society.
Schröder warned of a "conflict of cultures" and said Muslims "must clearly and without misunderstanding demonstrate that they accept our legal order and democratic rules."
He said that the state had to insist on the fact that "our willingness to integrate corresponds to a willingness to be integrated on the part of those who come here."

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=96850&Sn=WORL&IssueID=27243

PARIS: With concern growing about radical Islam in their midst, governments in western Europe are debating how to ensure that Muslim prayer leaders preach in the local language and spread messages of moderation rather than hate.

In Belgium, Flemish Interior Minister Marino Keulen wants obligatory civics and language courses for foreign-born imams, who are the vast majority there - as elsewhere in Europe - and mostly preach in Arabic.

France, frontrunner in the drive to develop a European Islam immune to fundamentalist rhetoric from the Middle East, told its Muslim leaders on Tuesday to come up with a plan soon for educating new generations of Western-thinking imams locally.

In July, Britain's Home Secretary David Blunkett said imams would soon have to pass a basic English test before being able to preach. He also wanted a civics test for them in future.

 

[Loki]

Fight for Freeform:


Just so that it's clear to others who are joining this thread late, those last two quotes in your post were not made by me (but by Ripclawe, I believe). Only the first quote in your post was actually made by me. Just wanted to make that clear, because after the last quote, you said "that is what I'm talking about Loki"-- though I realize that you may be using that quote to make a point about what we were speaking about earlier, and that's why you mentioned my name, other people may not be aware of this.

 

[FightyF]

Loki, thanks for pointing that out, for those who may have read my post and automatically assumed that all quotes were from you. I gotta start labelling the quotes.

The US cannot and would not "ban" the guy, free speech and all that. He would be boycotted and not be associated with, but other than that, he would be fine.

The US has done it. I think it's safe to say that if they've done it before, they'll more than likely do it again.

He criticized Islam and his death "confirmed" to people that Islam is dangerous because of the actions of a few radicals, he has every right to do so and to call on banning the criticizism of a religion because a few crackpots will go off is offensive and just puts a bad light on an overall group. You want to hide.

So you agree that he's criticizing Islam, is that right?

I agree that the actions of the Radicals made life worse for their own families. But I don't think that the Dutch are that stupid to think that this confirms that a religion is a threat. It's like saying that the Pro-Life ideology is dangerous because a few Radicals decide to kill a doctor. I can see some anti-Muslim people try that kind of logic, but I don't think it will fly with the normal Dutch community.

I agree with your assessment. The Europeans are reacting in an odd manner. France, for example has promoted a segregated society between Muslims and the rest of the population, but I feel that will be counter-productive to their integration into the multicultural fabric of that society.

An interesting quote from your news clips...

"Yes to openness and tolerance, no to Islamist head scarves," Stoiber told delegates, who unanimously voted against a Turkish EU membership and for cutting social welfare benefits for foreigners who are unwilling to integrate.

How about tolerating a form of dress Mr. Stoiber? For a country that's predominately Christian, it'd be an odd site to see Mother Mary banned from the country because of her headscarf.

 

[Ripclawe]

So you agree that he's criticizing Islam, is that right?

Of course and he has every right too.

I agree that the actions of the Radicals made life worse for their own families. But I don't think that the Dutch are that stupid to think that this confirms that a religion is a threat. It's like saying that the Pro-Life ideology is dangerous because a few Radicals decide to kill a doctor. I can see some anti-Muslim people try that kind of logic, but I don't think it will fly with the normal Dutch community.

wrong.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=dutch+van+gogh

The actions of the radical and the lack of inaction by the muslim communities in Europe has and will make life worse for everyone.

I agree with your assessment. The Europeans are reacting in an odd manner. France, for example has promoted a segregated society between Muslims and the rest of the population, but I feel that will be counter-productive to their integration into the multicultural fabric of that society.

France has never been multicultural, its has always been about French ideals, culture is fine as long as it conforms to the french way of thinking and ideals. Its about secularism vs religion.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/68879FF0-3CBF-4A1D-B089-EAE10CBA6635.htm

"Do we want the river of Islam to enter the riverbed of secularism?"

Europe is not acting odd at all, they see a threat and are reacting to it as they see fit.

 

[Chrono]

Europe is not acting odd at all, they see a threat and are reacting to it as they see fit.

Aren't most Muslims CITIZENS of European countries? As long as they don't hurt anyone, they have the right to believe Islam should rule Europe and whatever crazy ideas that they'll teach their children who'll teach theirs too. How do you think Europe will react in 30 years when there are millions of them? This is messed up. =\

 

[Particle Physicist]

The US has done it. I think it's safe to say that if they've done it before, they'll more than likely do it again.

has done what?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Aren't most Muslims CITIZENS of European countries? As long as they don't hurt anyone, they have the right to believe Islam should rule Europe and whatever crazy ideas that they'll teach their children who'll teach theirs too. How do you think Europe will react in 30 years when there are millions of them? This is messed up. =\

Other citizens of Europe have the right to believe that should never happen and should be avoided at any cost. I don't like the idea of marrying any religion with state.

What gets me is how democratically elected rulers are apostate, dictators are apostate, even deciding things for yourself is shirk. It's just that kind of backwards thinking from radicals that means it will never catch on here like they want. Instead there'll be just enough of them to kill and be killed.

 

[COCKLES]

Well Nostradmus did predict a Muslim invasion of Europe.

It just wasn't the literal invasion in the normal sense of the word.

As their numbers grow and grow the larger their demands will get.

Sure the majority arn't a problem, but as long as that so-far silent majority stay silent then the radicals will do all the talking.

I expect calls for Sharia law in certain European countries before 2010.

 

[RiZ III]

Since when is Nostradamous a reliable source of information>

 

[Instigator]

Apparently kids who know their first language well have an advantage when it comes to learning second languages. They have a more basic understanding of how a language is built and how grammar works. They often do better than those who are still struggling to master their first language.

Besides, encouraging them to know the culture of their homeland also prevents some of the tendency to rebel and refuse to adapt to the culture of the new country. If they're taught that the different cultures have the same worth, and the culture of their homecountry isn't looked down upon by the people in their new country, that can be a tremendous amount of oil to pour on some potentially very troubled waters.

So public funds for teaching immigrants kids more about their own language and culture tend to be well spent.

I don't know much about Koran-schools, but I obviously think teaching basic skills as reading and writing and getting general knowledge of the world is more important than being taught one specific religion. That should be left for the spare time and privately funded, which should go for all religions.

 

[Azih]

So you agree that he's criticizing Islam, is that right?

Buddy what you have to understand is that there is nothing wrong with critcizing Islam. It is NOT considered a crime anywhere in Western Europe or North America to do anything like that, and frankly we're better off for it.

I agree that the actions of the Radicals made life worse for their own families. But I don't think that the Dutch are that stupid to think that this confirms that a religion is a threat.

Dude if a person kills another person and MAKES THE STATEMENT that he did it because of Islam then it's perfectly god damn reasonable for the average Dutch person to think "man, Islam is crazy".

 

[Azih]

Besides, encouraging them to know the culture of their homeland also prevents some of the tendency to rebel and refuse to adapt to the culture of the new country. If they're taught that the different cultures have the same worth, and the culture of their homecountry isn't looked down upon by the people in their new country, that can be a tremendous amount of oil to pour on some potentially very troubled waters.

It's a balance, and frankly the only country where I see that a good balance has been acheived is Canada.

 

[Ripclawe]

It's a balance, and frankly the only country where I see that a good balance has been acheived is Canada.

not really.

http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?part=news&Story_ID=112331

UNI Toronto Nov 21: Gay education in Toronto’s public schools has brought the Muslims of the city on a collision course with the administration and its policy of tolerance towards different groups, including homosexuals.Muslim parents, riled at the gay education classes being held in schools, are protesting against the Toronto district school board’s ‘anti-homophobia’ education which seeks to make children accept gay relationships.

The parents want their children excluded from these classes but neither the school authorities nor the Ontario government are succumbing to their demand.

The protest centered around the anti-homophobia education classes held at the Market Lane Public School earlier this week. One of the films shown during these classes featured a number of interviews with children of same-sex parents who talked about their feelings at being taunted for belonging to gay parents.

While board officials have refused to exclude Muslim students from the anti-homophobia education, many parents termed the board’s stance as a blow to their own rights. “They showed a gay lifestyle to the kids without the knowledge of the parents,” said Mr Mohamed Yassin, whose children study in the Market Lane School.

“When people immigrate to Canada, they are well aware that the laws and values of this country are different from the ones followed in their country of origin. Once they are here, they should live by the laws of this country. Why do they want to bring the social ills of the country which they have left behind, to Canada?” asked Ms Jill Smith, a grandmother outraged by the controversy.

 

[Azih]

Oh I know about that Rip, I never said it was perfect, I said it was good. Hell I'll make that stronger and state that Canada has the best balance (note still not perfect).

Plus the handling of this issue is pretty damn civilised. There's negotiations and discussions happening between the school board and the group plus the Premier of the province has made a plea for tolerance. I don't know how it'll play out. I personally hope the school board prevails.

 

[Fusebox]

“When people immigrate to Canada, they are well aware that the laws and values of this country are different from the ones followed in their country of origin. Once they are here, they should live by the laws of this country. Why do they want to bring the social ills of the country which they have left behind, to Canada?"

Beautifull stated grandma. It doesn't get much simpler than this.

 

[Socreges]

Oh I know about that Rip, I never said it was perfect, I said it was good. Hell I'll make that stronger and state that Canada has the best balance (note still not perfect).

Plus the handling of this issue is pretty damn civilised. There's negotiations and discussions happening between the school board and the group plus the Premier of the province has made a plea for tolerance. I don't know how it'll play out. I personally hope the school board prevails.

You're too nice to Ripclawe. You say as much as "good balance" and he provides one -civil- instance as if to refute ("not really").

 

[Guileless]

What Van Gogh did would be considered a possible crime in Canada, but he wouldn't ever even face the chance of the death penalty. In the US it's a bit different...they would just ban the guy. I just think the same laws should apply to the Netherlands.

How is making a documentary criticizing gender apartheid a "possible crime" in Canada? And under what law would Van Gough be "banned" in the US, and what agency would make and execute that decision? I don't understand what you're saying at all.