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Dutch Writer Leon de Winter: European Muslims Must Abandon "Occidentophobia"

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Antiochus

Member
It is uncertain whether this writer is considered right wing in Belgian politics, but nonetheless he throws some verbal incendiaries on the underlying issues surrounding the Belgian Muslim/Moroccan community:

http://www.politico.eu/article/brus...urope-muslims-brussels-attacks-airport-metro/

The first reaction to the Brussels massacres among postmodern European intellectuals was predictable: What did we, Europeans, do to them, our Muslims? How could followers of a religion that is proudly called “the religion of peace” commit these kinds of atrocities?

People like Peter Vandermeersch, the Belgian editor-in-chief of Dutch newspaper NRC-Handelsblad, and Belgian writer David van Reybrouck, both accomplished intellectuals, argued that Belgium must have done something terrible to deserve this. Their line of reasoning: The terrorists’ fury must be a reaction to their inhumane treatment at the hands of the West.

So, we blame ourselves in order to remain blameless. Safer to blame our own societies and socioeconomic conditions than to blame the religious and cultural concepts with which terrorists poison their own minds.
According to reports, the unemployment figure in Brussels’ infamous Molenbeek neighborhood — now referred to as the jihadi hothouse of Europe — is 30 percent. This is a relatively high figure in Western Europe, but not unusual in southern European countries or the Arab world. There is poverty in Molenbeek, but that poverty is relative. There is no starvation, no homelessness, no lack of medical infrastructure, no lack of schools.
Immigration into the Netherlands from Morocco and Turkey is an expensive phenomenon for the taxpayer: In the modern welfare state immigrants are more dependent on the welfare state than the average citizen. Because of a lack of higher education and the lack of non-skilled jobs, immigrants absorb a higher part of unemployment and social security payments than the average citizen. As a group, they receive more money than they pay in taxes. They also show up much higher in crime statistics than their numbers would justify. There are many success stories, but there are also disappointing trends. Like radicalization. And the situation in Belgium is even worse.

The notion that Moroccan-Belgians suffer from widespread exclusion, discrimination, and suppression is ridiculous — and yet completely acceptable among the politically-correct crowd. Life in Belgium is exceptionally good and safe for migrants — if they are willing to integrate into their new cultural environment, if they are willing to act as individuals, study with passion and openness, and accept the secular system of the West.

There is no difference at all in socioeconomic status between youngsters from a low-education, blue-collar Belgian background and youngsters from a Muslim migrant background. Both have to struggle, both have to overcome weak socioeconomic family situations. In Spain, youth unemployment has reached 50 percent and the welfare state is less developed than in Belgium, yet Spanish citizens aren’t blowing themselves up in metro stations.

The other explanation for the high unemployment figures among Muslims in Europe has nothing to do with exclusion and discrimination. A large segment of the migrant population is doing just fine, but a significant number — some say as many as 50 percent — have not rid themselves of the mental and cultural conditions that have kept their home country in its “developing country” status. The denial of equal rights to women, the lack of separation of state and church, bad education, excessive religiosity, patriarchal machismo — these are all on display in areas with a high percentage of migrants, including Molenbeek.

On hatred of Jews and homosexuals among Europe’s Muslim population, Koopmans finds: “Almost 60 percent reject homosexuals as friends and 45 percent think that Jews cannot be trusted. While about one in five natives can be considered as Islamophobic, the level of phobia against the West among Muslims — for which oddly enough there is no word; one might call it ‘Occidentophobia’ — is much higher still, with 54 percent believing that the West is out to destroy Islam.” Recorded rates of Christian hate toward Muslims hover around 10 percent.

“Occidentophobia” is an interesting term. It expresses a refusal to accept the essential concepts of life in the West. Young men like the perpetrators of the Brussels attacks have refused to embrace the social codes of Belgian life. They were raised on the idea that their religious ethics trump the ethics of the infidels (close to non-existent, in their eyes, in any case). Their second-rate socioeconomic status was therefore a humiliating affront, an indignity to be destroyed.

Muslim integration into Europe societies is successful when Muslims are willing to give up the mental confinement of their home countries — countries, let’s not forget, which they left in search of a better life. For as long as they refuse to adapt to a European state of mind, they will perpetuate resentment and a culture of violence.

What did “we” do to “them”? We opened up our cities, our houses, our wallets. And in our secular temples of progress — our metro stations and airports and theaters — their sons are killing themselves, and taking our sons and daughters with them. There is nothing for which we need to apologize. “Occidentophobia” originated in the Muslim community. We need to demand they abandon it.
 

Antiochus

Member
Yeah, but only after colonizing them for a time.

The comedic irony is that Belgium never colonized Morocco one bit, while at the same time inflicting ruthless corporate savagery upon the Congo, yet apparently in their conscience they decided to pay their penance for the latter by importing vast numbers of the former
 

Mimosa97

Member
The comedic irony is that Belgium never colonized Morocco one bit, while at the same time inflicting ruthless corporate savagery upon the Congo, yet apparently in their conscience they decided to pay their penance for the latter by importing vast numbers of the former

They needed cheap workers who spoke French. They didn't " import " moroccan immigrants to say " I'm sorry we colonized Congo ".

Even though I don't agree with everything in this piece, the author highlights a lot of well known issues among muslim communities i.e gender equality, antisemitism, radicalization etc...
 
I don't know I'm from Belgium and I'd consider this shit pretty right wing. It's essentially a dude throwing out the European equivalent of: "They didn't bootstrap hard enough, and don't believe what I believe, and need to change". I'm also no socioeconomic expert and while I agree with him that socioeconomic factors have limited relevance in this context I disagree with his reasoning that there are virtually no barriers to success for 1st or 2nd generation migrants. But that's honestly besides the point because what this article is essentially trying to do is scapegoat the larger Muslim populace for the actions of what's still an incredibly minute subsection of them, and I personally don't think that's entirely kosher. And while I'm willing to believe the provided (unsourced) statistics to some extent, I also fail to see the relevance in a lot of them. Those 60% of Jew hating Muslims clearly aren't all blowing themselves up in airport terminals, right? Or did I miss a few million news broadcasts?
 

Joni

Member
Belgium. Netherlands. Potato. Tomato. He isn't considered anything in Belgian politics, outside of mandatory reading in school this Dutch writer doesn't get quoted at all.
He has an Orthodox Jewish background, which might be at play as well. As it and race always, always, always play a huge role in his books. Like everyone of them.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I hope somebody does something that will make those masses integrate. Without it I'm afraid there might be religous civil wars when muslims become the majority in Belgium or France.
 

Chichikov

Member
That colonization came after centuries of slave raids and piracy from the Barbary states.
Are you trying to justify colonization or even just implying that Belgian (or European in general for that matter) colonial effort in Africa were a result of slave raids and piracy?
 

Scipio

Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_de_Winter

He's Dutch. Change the title.

This kind of stuff is widely accepted by all political parties (except left wing) in Belgium.

I hope somebody does something that will make those masses integrate. Without it I'm afraid there might be religous civil wars when muslims become the majority in Belgium or France.

They're not becoming a majority in a long time.
 

Daeda

Member
Leon de Winter is Dutch, not Belgian fyi. Hes also very outspoken in his support for Israel, which is something I think one should keep in mind when it comes to these types of op-eds. Hes not really taken serious outside of the more right wing political circles in any case.
 

Nivash

Member
Just a few seconds of Googling shows that de Winters has some pretty extreme ideas about the Israeli-Palestiinian question. Here's an Op-Ed he wrote in 2010 where he claims that Gaza is perfectly free, not in need of aid and that the Ships to Gaza project was "a perfect piece of Islamist theater, revealing old European hatred". No really, he basically called Ship to Gaza antisemitic.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704575304575296463512785910

This is not an ad hominem though, I hate those. It's to answer the question of what biases he might have.

If you look at the article in the OP itself there's a lot of things to take issue with. Foremost the claim that there's no difference in opportunity for immigrants and natives in the same income level which would only be remotely true if Belgium was completely free of any systemic racism or discrimination which I find hard to believe, there isn't a country on Earth that can claim that. Then there's the continued insistence to treat the immigrant population as a monolithic block and ignore the reasons for why a very small number of them turn to terrorism.

The main argument in the article is completely pointless too. How do you even propose that they "abandon their occidentophobia" if such a thing even exists? How is that helpful in preventing terrorism? It's obviously not. It's just an attempt to put the blame for the terror attacks on all muslim immigrants when the reality is that it's much more complicated than that.
 
Are you trying to justify colonization or even just implying that Belgian (or European in general for that matter) colonial effort in Africa were a result of slave raids and piracy?

That's the problem with trying to find a thing in the past to pin the events of the current on. Morocco being conquered by France in 1912 was an act coming from French ambition to expand their territory and the terrorist acts taking place now come from a desire to establish a powerful islamic state by force.
 

KonradLaw

Member

Majority of european muslims support sharia law. And at this rate as muslim population grows it will become easier and easier to live comfortably while minimizing contact with the native population, which will mean the society will become less and less integrated. When muslims become majority it's likely they will try to pass sharia law and I don't think it's something non-muslims will accept without a fight.

I'm afraid countries like Belgium might end up like Lebanon.
 

Kabouter

Member
Yes, and the West answered with like 10 crusades or something.

Muslims were conquering parts of Europe far past the end of the crusades (and centuries before the crusades). The Ottoman Empire's advance wasn't finally stopped until 1683. Barbary Pirate raids even lasted until the early 19th century. Not that that matters to this argument, but just making sure we get this correct :p
 

Chichikov

Member
That's the problem with trying to find a thing in the past to pin the events of the current on. Morocco being conquered by France in 1912 was an act coming from French ambition to expand their territory and the terrorist acts taking place now come from a desire to establish a powerful islamic state by force.
Hold up.
The French conquest of Morocco had nothing to do with slavers or pirates.
If you want to withdraw your previous comment that's fine, but you can't just throw a half-justification for the European colonization of Africa and then just walk away from that.
 

Nivash

Member
Majority of european muslims support sharia law. And at this rate as muslim population grows it will become easier and easier to live comfortably while minimizing contact with the native population, which will mean the society will become less and less integrated. When muslims become majority it's likely they will try to pass sharia law and I don't think it's something non-muslims will accept without a fight.

I'm afraid countries like Belgium might end up like Lebanon.

Why do you keep saying "when muslims become majority" like it's some kind of inevitability? Muslims accounted for a mere 5 to 7 % of the Belgian population in the last census I've found. There's absolutely no indication at this point that Muslims will ever form a significant minority of the Belgian population, let alone a majority.

EDIT: I would also love to see your source for most European muslims supporting sharia. Pew did a poll on muslim beliefs about shariah and couldn't find anything close to majority support in any of the four European countries it included (Russia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania). In fact, it couldn't even find support for that in Lebanon with only 29 % there being in favor of making it the law of the land.
 

Tenebrous

Member
Majority of european muslims support sharia law. And at this rate as muslim population grows it will become easier and easier to live comfortably while minimizing contact with the native population, which will mean the society will become less and less integrated. When muslims become majority it's likely they will try to pass sharia law and I don't think it's something non-muslims will accept without a fight.

I'm afraid countries like Belgium might end up like Lebanon.

Nigel Farage would probably tell you to calm down. Belgium is not going to end up like Lebanon...
 
So many Muslims already do. For all we know, the majority of European Muslims are Secularised, but the miserable religious minority gets focused on and disproportionate media coverage.

I don't get this. Didn't Muslim empires try to conquer Europe several times as well?
There is no try. Istanbul since 1453 ;) Eastern Thrace since before then.
 
[citation needed]

Not sure if this qualifies but it seems the majority of Muslims in Europe think religious rules are more important than the laws of the country. I'd say, especially the immigrants from Morocco where there is overwhelming support for Sharia law, a lot of people only obey the local laws begrudgingly and would gladly outlaw homosexuality or implement harsh penalties for blasphemy.

One narrative about Muslim immigrants in Europe is that only a relatively small proportion holds views that are sometimes labeled as “fundamentalist.” Ruud Koopmans from the Wissenschaftszentrum in Berlin argues that this perspective is incorrect. He conducted a telephone survey of 9,000 respondents in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, and Sweden and interviewed both Turkish and Moroccan immigrants as well as a comparison group of Christians.

His first finding is that majorities of Muslim immigrants believe that there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick (75 percent), and that religious rules are more important than the laws of the country in which they live (65 percent). Moreover, these views are as widespread among younger Muslims as among older generations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-is-islamic-fundamentalism-in-western-europe/
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Majority of european muslims support sharia law. And at this rate as muslim population grows it will become easier and easier to live comfortably while minimizing contact with the native population, which will mean the society will become less and less integrated. When muslims become majority it's likely they will try to pass sharia law and I don't think it's something non-muslims will accept without a fight.

I'm afraid countries like Belgium might end up like Lebanon.

This seems awfully paranoid of you.

The sins of our fathers ...

Even though current generations might not be responsible for what happened the effects of who came before them still exist in the world and in some cases still benefit from it.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I would also love to see your source for most European muslims supporting sharia. Pew did a poll on muslim beliefs about shariah and couldn't find anything close to majority support in any of the four European countries it included (Russia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania). In fact, it couldn't even find support for that in Lebanon with only 29 % there being in favor of making it the law of the land.

Look at the four countries you've named. Those aren't the countries where majority of muslim population came from recent middle-eastern and north african migration. Those are all deeply european muslims, which are generally much more secular and well integrated into european societies. So the question is how we can replicate that for western europe?
 

Iceternal

Member
Look at the four countries you've named. Those aren't the countries where majority of muslim population came from recent middle-eastern and north african migration. Those are all deeply european muslims, which are generally much more secular and well integrated into european societies. So the question is how we can replicate that for western europe?

Indeed, France is a much better indicator for example.
 

Nivash

Member
Look at the four countries you've named. Those aren't the countries where majority of muslim population came from recent middle-eastern and north african migration. Those are all deeply european muslims, which are generally much more secular and well integrated into european societies. So the question is how we can replicate that for western europe?

We can't, which is why I was asking you what your source was. I linked to the Pew poll because it's the closest thing I could find from a reliable source.

Not sure if this qualifies but it seems the majority of Muslims in Europe think religious rules are more important than the laws of the country. I'd say, especially the immigrants from Morocco where there is overwhelming support for Sharia law, a lot of people only obey the local laws begrudgingly and would gladly outlaw homosexuality or implement harsh penalties for blasphemy.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-is-islamic-fundamentalism-in-western-europe/

I found that earlier but I didn't think it applied. The religious rules vs laws is too general a question, it doesn't correlate directly to views on shariah because there are a lot more religious rules than that.
 

Kurdel

Banned

Call me crazy, but I was expecting a straightforward question like this one, not a vague "Is your religion more important than the state".

0DAD964E-F7B4-4306-B1C3-6050652DA264_zpsqkxqdlam.png
 

spekkeh

Banned
Leon de Winter is conservative right wing, but simply that; not the kind who has a condition where his right arm is unable to bend at the elbow joint.

I fully agree with him in this case by the way. I do think Moroccans are treated badly in Belgium and the Netherlands (though it also did not come out of nothing, but this needs to change), but the standard reflex where it was pinned on socioeconomical circumstances and therefore putting the blame on society which I read about here and elsewhere was groanworthy to say the least.
 
So many Muslims already do. For all we know, the majority of European Muslims are Secularised, but the miserable religious minority gets focused on and disproportionate media coverage.


There is no try. Istanbul since 1453 ;) Eastern Thrace since before then.

Spain was occupied for like 700 years, up until the XV century.
 
I don't know I'm from Belgium and I'd consider this shit pretty right wing. It's essentially a dude throwing out the European equivalent of: "They didn't bootstrap hard enough, and don't believe what I believe, and need to change". I'm also no socioeconomic expert and while I agree with him that socioeconomic factors have limited relevance in this context I disagree with his reasoning that there are virtually no barriers to success for 1st or 2nd generation migrants. But that's honestly besides the point because what this article is essentially trying to do is scapegoat the larger Muslim populace for the actions of what's still an incredibly minute subsection of them, and I personally don't think that's entirely kosher. And while I'm willing to believe the provided (unsourced) statistics to some extent, I also fail to see the relevance in a lot of them. Those 60% of Jew hating Muslims clearly aren't all blowing themselves up in airport terminals, right? Or did I miss a few million news broadcasts?

Agreed.

Belgium. Netherlands. Potato. Tomato. He isn't considered anything in Belgian politics, outside of mandatory reading in school this Dutch writer doesn't get quoted at all.
He has an Orthodox Jewish background, which might be at play as well. As it and race always, always, always play a huge role in his books. Like everyone of them.

Yep, also true.
 
Hold up.
The French conquest of Morocco had nothing to do with slavers or pirates.
If you want to withdraw your previous comment that's fine, but you can't just throw a half-justification for the European colonization of Africa and then just walk away from that.

I responded to a 'but we colonized them' comment as if that somehow has created a blood debt that is now being repaid with these attacks and which makes all the opportunities created for immigrants in the West irrelevant. If you start playing that game there is also a massive list of grievances Europe would have a right to seek retribution for from centuries of attacks from the then far more powerful islamic nations.
 
As an Eastern European "Muslim" who has been consistently discriminated against and made fun of by occidentals for a faith I barely identify with you can be damn sure I am afraid...
 

Condom

Member
I hated that guy since high school, he is a giant douche and one of those hard-line apologists for the deeds of the Israeli regime.

Besides that I'm pretty tired of people shitting on us immigrants the whole time while obviously not understanding any of the issues. Get fucked with your bullshit righwing assholes.
 

Chichikov

Member
I responded to a 'but we colonized them' comment as if that somehow has created a blood debt that is now being repaid with these attacks and which makes all the opportunities created for immigrants in the West irrelevant. If you start playing that game there is also a massive list of grievances Europe would have a right to seek retribution for from centuries of attacks from the then far more powerful islamic nations.
That was in response to a question in the article about what did Europe did to the Muslim world.
And while colonization (and European interference in general) is relevant to at least some of the resentment that exists in the Muslim world, the Barbary pirates are as relevant to that question as the Punic Wars.
So explain to me again what was your point?
Is that just normal whataboutism?
 

Jumeira

Banned
It's a familiar tactic. Try to remove descriminination and prejudice from targeted societies so you don't feel bad about your bigoted views against them. We hate descrimination but this group arnt being treated as such! So please carry on! It's often used in palestinian/Israel discussions and I'm not surprised this guy is trying (and failing) to apply it to Belgian muslims.
 

Chuckie

Member
I hated that guy since high school, he is a giant douche and one of those hard-line apologists for the deeds of the Israeli regime.

Besides that I'm pretty tired of people shitting on us immigrants the whole time while obviously not understanding any of the issues. Get fucked with your bullshit righwing assholes.

Yeah I have also hated him since I was young. He is, like you said, a hard-line apologist for the Israel regime, so I really doubt his 'good' intentions with writing an article like this.
 

18-Volt

Member
You want to integrate muslims into European society? Promote atheism among the youth. Islam is just a religion that go down from parents to children. It's possible to combat religious separation with science and reason, all you have to do is stop newer generations to injected with religious dogma.
 

Iceternal

Member
You want to integrate muslims into European society? Promote atheism among the youth. Islam is just a religion that go down from parents to children. It's possible to combat religious separation with science and reason, all you have to do is stop newer generations to injected with religious dogma.

Well, in France at least, freedom of faith is an important part of our society soooo..... nope.
 
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