ClosingADoor
Member
I don't think this will go over well. Kind of messes with the whole freedom of religion thing.
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Dutch Writer Leon de Winter: European Muslims Must Abandon "Occidentophobia"
- Thread starter Antiochus
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Partially related, the former teacher of one of the suicide bombers Najim Laachraoui claimed today that Najim started as a kind, normal religious dude wanting to show how freedom and peace were friends of the Islam. By the time of his last school year, he was convinced that the Islam was superior to the Western model and how bad the Western model is. So that might actually support a bit what de Winter claims. The dude was also loved by his parents, quite smart, had chances for higher education.
There is a researcher that claims that the French extreme secular culture is actually causing the radicalization.
What?
Kids don't become more religious because of their parents, they become more religious because since 9/11 you get picked on when you're muslim. My sister for example never weared a headscarf and my parents raised us extremely moderately and secularly (we didn't have to go to the mosque of pray etc).
But then she wanted to join the military and got picked on for being Muslim and a Moroccan, THAT was the time she decided to say fuck you pricks if I'm never good enough for you guys then I might as well just start wearing a headscarf because it doesn't even matter. She also quit because nobody, not even the leadership, was supporting her against the bigoted douchebags.
The right-wing douchebags never tell this part of the story though.
Well it isn't illegal to teach or promote philosophy in schools. It's just it had to be done more effective ways to have children question their traditions and customs. Right now muslim youth in Europe are more in favor of their family religious customs than everything else, so currently it is not done in the way it should be.
Examples exist, especially in Golden Age of Islam, philosophy was taught as much as traditional religion and that caused scientists and mathematicians to be spawned throughout the Empire.
You don't have to be "extreme" or anything. Just be effective. Whole education system must be revamped, positive sciences need to reach children faster than family traditions. It's possible and done before.
Optimusdouche
Banned
Nah. I think European 'intellectuals' need to abandon their racist obsession with Muslims, and stop their unending racist attacks.
It's like the American 'intellectuals' that blamed black people for any black crime. Racism. This the only name for this.
There is only one way to integrate Muslims into the west, we've seen it done very well in America, where they are the one of them most affluent and educated group in America?
What's different with America and Europe? They have opportunities in America, and American society isn't literally built around racist attacks against Muslims, like in Europe. So WE ALREADY know the key to integration. Less racims, and more jobs. Europe needs to do THIS. Stop racistly freezing them out of society. America already proved everyone's suggestions in here is ridiculously wrong and misinformed.
It's like the American 'intellectuals' that blamed black people for any black crime. Racism. This the only name for this.
There is only one way to integrate Muslims into the west, we've seen it done very well in America, where they are the one of them most affluent and educated group in America?
What's different with America and Europe? They have opportunities in America, and American society isn't literally built around racist attacks against Muslims, like in Europe. So WE ALREADY know the key to integration. Less racims, and more jobs. Europe needs to do THIS. Stop racistly freezing them out of society. America already proved everyone's suggestions in here is ridiculously wrong and misinformed.
ClosingADoor
Member
Differences between American and European Muslims are numerous. Different backgrounds, different reasons to come there, different outlooks. You can't compare it one on one.
And judging from the developments lately in the US, you guys have just as much problems with people being racist against Muslims as Europe does.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Can you cite the examples where it's been done before and been successful?
Is this post sarcasm? I guess you are advocating Europe to only take in educated high-opportunity Muslim immigrants and throwing everyone else out?
I wonder how that fits with the reality that these suicide bombers had jobs and that they were criminals.
undu
Member
Don't forget the genocide against those who stayed in Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos
Yeah. Turkey for example. First years of the republic, whole religious education was switched with positive sciences in addition of replacing Arabic alphabet with Latin one. Government successfully severed all ties that people of Turkey have with islam, without even intervening religious freedom of people. After 15-20 years, people forgot all about Islam and religion and even didn't mind destruction of mosques and Korans. It went on like that until Iranian revolution and Cold War. After the coup of 1980, Iranian Revolution started to affect Turkey and Islam returned to the country.
Optimusdouche
Banned
This illustrates the BS racist nature of European pseudo intellectuals so well. He is so insular and useless, that this nonsense even needs a word made up for it.
Occidentophobia. LOL. That's a good one. This is almost like a parody of a bad European pseudo intellect. And anyway, anytime someone's entire identity is 'intellect' that is a good time to run the other way and never look back.
Occidentophobia. LOL. That's a good one. This is almost like a parody of a bad European pseudo intellect. And anyway, anytime someone's entire identity is 'intellect' that is a good time to run the other way and never look back.
It's cause we colonized them for a while.
I do think the dude is reaching, but i can't disagree that it seems people are not willing to put enough effort even with all the welfare programs.
Optimusdouche
Banned
I'm so glad a racist white 'intellect' has all the answers, and it as simple as, 'get over it!" We even get a fancy word for this amazing intellectual insight!
It's only natural occidentophobia should be the word for this! It's not at all the most stupid and useless affirmation of an incredible intellect. Oh my word. Those European intellects are something aren't they?
It's only natural occidentophobia should be the word for this! It's not at all the most stupid and useless affirmation of an incredible intellect. Oh my word. Those European intellects are something aren't they?
That link doesn't mention any genocide though.
Besides, it's not like the Umayyad conquerors didn't do equally nasty things.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Just thought I'd show something that is partly relevant.
Socio-economic reasons seem to be quickly ignored
Joshua Hersh on Brussels Attacks & Radicalization in Belgium - Democracy Now
Socio-economic reasons seem to be quickly ignored
Joshua Hersh on Brussels Attacks & Radicalization in Belgium - Democracy Now
Dunno, seems right on many aspects of what he's talking about. The responsibility to integrate is on non-natives, and we should be far more forceful in what we demand they give up if they want to live here. Homophobia, sexism, racism... All these traits we should feel no remorse in discriminating against when it comes to those who want to live in our countries; and we certainly shouldn't fear kicking people out on that basis.
In short, integrate or go away.
Easy for you to say with a Dutch sounding name like De Winter. I thought graduating would be the toughest part of the start of my career, but now I know it's the job hunting. Maybe I was naive to believe otherwise, because I had a lot of trouble finding internships as well whereas my friends with Dutch sounding names got them relatively lightning fast. And I'm not talking about getting invited to interview and then not getting the job, I'm talking about getting invited to interviews period.
There's definitely discrimination involved in one way or another. How many researches have there been on this subject?
http://www.nu.nl/economie/876680/wel-discriminatie-bij-sollicitatie.html
http://nos.nl/artikel/2055368-allochtoon-minder-vaak-uitgenodigd-voor-sollicitatie.html
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/05/09...in-uitgenodigd-met-dezelfde-sollicitatiebrief
This viewpoint seems impressively devoid of context and understanding. Saying there is no difference in the socio economic status of Muslim ghetto's or impoverished areas, to say white one's, is naive and ignorant. There are many other factors besides income or job prospects alone, and minority groups in other countries, such as the Black population in the US for example, will know this full well.
Many Muslim's across the world have faced examples of discrimination, racism, hate, unfair blame and all sorts, pretty much since 9/11. Constantly being either directly or indirectly villainised by certain groups, since that fateful attack, and every terror attack that followed. Muslim's have very much been tarred with a very large brush based on the actions of a few, and also consistently criticised for not condemning attacks as if it was their onus to do so, and which ironically they actually have been doing since the very beginning, but that the media likes to ignore, and so on. This level of demonisation does take it's toll, and essentially makes full assimilation almost impossible.
Then there's the geopolitics of it all. Much of the anger in the West towards Muslim's, stems from the terrorist attacks, which is not only understandable, but often occurs in completely different countries to where the anger is actually felt, across Europe even, because the West, can more easily relate to other countries in the West. For example, anger felt in the UK over of a terrorist act that took place in France, and so on. We actually extended our bombing campaign in Syria in the UK, not based off of any terrorist attack that took place in the UK, but one in France. In other words, an attack doesn't have to take place in one's own country for it's populace to react in anger or fear.
Now take that anger, which is based off of a very limited number of terrorist attacks (only 2.5% of all terrorist acts in Europe are Islamic based), but that has still resulted in the massive rise in far right movements, mass racism, xenophobia, attacks on Muslims, hate crimes, consistently unfavourable media coverage, even the murder of Muslims etc, and apply it to how Muslim's might feel regarding geopolitics relating to their own religion or groups.
Muslim's might naturally feel a similar sense of relatability to other Muslim's, now image the anger, fear, condemnation and unrest that Muslim's have also felt as a result of their own nation's being constantly under attack, war, bombing, occupation, or whatever else over the last several decades. Whether it's Libya, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Rohinya, Yemen and so on, where millions of innocent Muslims have lost their lives, been completely displaced or shattered, and it all also starts to take it's toll. Only the repercussions are much more dangerous because of all the other factors already discussed above. That anger, rage, feeling of exclusion etc among many Muslims, coupled with the demonisation, racism, anger, blame and so on, exerted against them by others, can manifest itself in to much more dangerous outcomes, which is where we start seeing the rise of homegrown terrorists or the Muslim equivalent of far right and extreme groups (which happens to fall to groups like ISIS, and their current abhorrent tactics).
It doesn't all just happen in a vacuum, and whilst there are of course issues pertaining to cultural and religious differences, it's very important we don't just gloss over the deeper context, and pretend as if the socio economic and geo political standing of Muslim's currently living in the West, is necessarily the same as other groups. It isn't.
Many Muslim's across the world have faced examples of discrimination, racism, hate, unfair blame and all sorts, pretty much since 9/11. Constantly being either directly or indirectly villainised by certain groups, since that fateful attack, and every terror attack that followed. Muslim's have very much been tarred with a very large brush based on the actions of a few, and also consistently criticised for not condemning attacks as if it was their onus to do so, and which ironically they actually have been doing since the very beginning, but that the media likes to ignore, and so on. This level of demonisation does take it's toll, and essentially makes full assimilation almost impossible.
Then there's the geopolitics of it all. Much of the anger in the West towards Muslim's, stems from the terrorist attacks, which is not only understandable, but often occurs in completely different countries to where the anger is actually felt, across Europe even, because the West, can more easily relate to other countries in the West. For example, anger felt in the UK over of a terrorist act that took place in France, and so on. We actually extended our bombing campaign in Syria in the UK, not based off of any terrorist attack that took place in the UK, but one in France. In other words, an attack doesn't have to take place in one's own country for it's populace to react in anger or fear.
Now take that anger, which is based off of a very limited number of terrorist attacks (only 2.5% of all terrorist acts in Europe are Islamic based), but that has still resulted in the massive rise in far right movements, mass racism, xenophobia, attacks on Muslims, hate crimes, consistently unfavourable media coverage, even the murder of Muslims etc, and apply it to how Muslim's might feel regarding geopolitics relating to their own religion or groups.
Muslim's might naturally feel a similar sense of relatability to other Muslim's, now image the anger, fear, condemnation and unrest that Muslim's have also felt as a result of their own nation's being constantly under attack, war, bombing, occupation, or whatever else over the last several decades. Whether it's Libya, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Rohinya, Yemen and so on, where millions of innocent Muslims have lost their lives, been completely displaced or shattered, and it all also starts to take it's toll. Only the repercussions are much more dangerous because of all the other factors already discussed above. That anger, rage, feeling of exclusion etc among many Muslims, coupled with the demonisation, racism, anger, blame and so on, exerted against them by others, can manifest itself in to much more dangerous outcomes, which is where we start seeing the rise of homegrown terrorists or the Muslim equivalent of far right and extreme groups (which happens to fall to groups like ISIS, and their current abhorrent tactics).
It doesn't all just happen in a vacuum, and whilst there are of course issues pertaining to cultural and religious differences, it's very important we don't just gloss over the deeper context, and pretend as if the socio economic and geo political standing of Muslim's currently living in the West, is necessarily the same as other groups. It isn't.
Well, it's a religion after all. You can defeat it but you can never erase it.
Yet all those reforms made Turkey the most liberal Islamic country of today, it's quite an accomplishment for a country which once held the seat of the Caliphate.
Because the reality is that the unemployment in those Brussels areas like Molenbeek isn't high or special in comparison to Wallonia, where both of those suffer from the same problems including low average educational level with an education that is too focused on one language, instead of the two often demanded by companies. Belgium is still two countries in one, one highly competitive Northern country and one badly hit Southern country. It would be Germany and Spain in one country. That a lot of these suicide bombers aren't poor, isolated and unemployed. Like Abdeslam having a cushy government job.
Nah, it's a two-sided way, it always has been. And it's one of the mains reason why some countries are more successful with immigration than others.
How can you defeat a religion? If anything Turkey is a testament that such an idea is a political delusion, and religion will hold a place on people. Just like how russians fell back into Christian Orthodoxy.
Yep.
It took a few years for my mothers village to fully integrate my mother into the community (Canada). She wanted to move to Montreal and live near immigrants who come from the same country as her, but now she feels like a part of the community and doesn't want to move.
ClosingADoor
Member
Isn't this proof that it was on her to integrate also? She could have moved, but she didn't and is now part of that community.
Of course it isn't as easy as that, and efforts need to be made on both sides. But I do feel the responsibility is mostly on the people coming in to try and adapt to the new society, since they moved there to make use of its benefits and opportunities.
Read the comment I was replying to.
"European interference in general", "the Muslim world".
Please explain to me how French colonization of Morocco is relevant for resentment of Moroccans to Belgian and Dutch culture. Other than Occidentophobia.
Much more pressing in this kind of justification, why aren't Congolese blowing themselves up in Brussels, you know, people who actually have a claim of resentment due to colonization.
Also note as a fun aside that Morocco is one of the only countries in the world that's still an active colonizer, oppressing another people. Not France, not Belgium, not the Netherlands.
More Fun To Compute
Member
The explanation of what is going on is quite simple. If you look for ideological movements that oppose the current world order of oligarchical global globalism what you have to fall back on is religious fundamentalism and nationalism. Both equally provide nazi levels of ideological "comfort" combined with the threat of violence to people who find it hard to deal with the world as it is. Look at an operator like Putin and his mob. They are quite happy to use these ideological forces to secure their political power. With Trump we might see this spread more to the US.
Talk about persecution of Muslims or Muslim invasion of Europe are two sides of the same coin. It's just the fairy tails that justify the irrational sentimentality and violence on both sides.
Talk about persecution of Muslims or Muslim invasion of Europe are two sides of the same coin. It's just the fairy tails that justify the irrational sentimentality and violence on both sides.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I need receipts
What part?
Abdeslam's Employment, for which he was fired because he liked being a criminal more: http://www.7sur7.be/7s7/fr/35522/At...-de-bar-qui-etaient-les-freres-Abdeslam.dhtml
Youth Unemployment: http://trends.knack.be/economie/bel...n-structureel-hoog/article-normal-256945.html
Comparison education level: http://www.armoedebestrijding.be/cijfers_onderwijs.htm
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
brb brushing up on French and Flemish
Boozeroony
Member
Wow. Just.... wow.
Didn't know the differences were that big. 30% youth unemployment in Wallonia compared to 14% in Flanders. Crazy.
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