It's an open world game. That alone is cause for a lot of skepticism. Most open world games are mediocre at best, plus we've been subjected to a hundred of them, so going into a new one is always a cautious affair.
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Easy Allies |EZOT2| Love & Respect
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It's an open world game. That alone is cause for a lot of skepticism. Most open world games are mediocre at best, plus we've been subjected to a hundred of them, so going into a new one is always a cautious affair.
Grayfox341
Member
"People just didn't want to believe that Guerilla could make a great game."
That seems...presumptuous. My skepticism came from lukewarm hands-on demos from within EZA as well as the general worry of open world fatigue.
I was wrong and glad to be. Game is fantastic. I don't know what else to say. It's weird to me that people hold it against us for having doubts when it's a very natural thing to have opinions change over time. As long as you're transparent and honest about it I don't see an issue.
EDIT: Not trying to come at you specifically or anything, just displaying general frustrations. I realize this post probably sounds more aggressive than intended.
Mm, don't take that quote as a criticism of you or the Allies - I certainly would never "hold anything against you" for being skeptical and I hope no one else does. I'm just saying that I thought Horizon's marketing was rather good for a new IP while Mass Effect's basically been coasting on brand recognition.
That people didn't want to believe Guerilla could make a good game was less a presumption about the Allies and more a reflection of the common sentiment on Gaf and elsewhere pre-release. You guys said yourselves, "this is by the people who made Killzone!?"
Grayfox341
Member
Mm, don't take that quote as a criticism of you or the Allies - I certainly would never "hold anything against you" for being skeptical and I hope no one else does. I'm just saying that I thought Horizon's marketing was rather good for a new IP while Mass Effect's basically been coasting on brand recognition.
That people didn't want to believe Guerilla could make a good game was less a presumption about the Allies and more a reflection of the common sentiment on Gaf and elsewhere pre-release. You guys said yourselves, "this is by the people who made Killzone!?"
That's...very fair. I actually enjoyed Killzone 2 and 3, but Horizon is the last thing I expected. In a good way.
As far as the marketing, you're right. Those E3 trailers were fantastic. I have this weird bias against unproven open world games just because I've been burned so severely before. I really, really don't like Watchdogs 1 for instance. Which reminds me that I need to play more of 2 because I enjoyed the little that I've played so far.
I feel like I'm stuck on this Horizon stuff because I just want to talk about it. I think exploring those initial doubts and then how those impressions changed has value. For me personally, where I'm at now with Horizon is very different than where I started. It's broken down that bias in a positive way.
I think a lot of the worry for Horizon (not necessarily from EZA) came from it being Guerrilla's first foreay in to the open-world genre which is/was (depending on how you see it) in need of some serious rejuvenation. Guerilla, whilst they had made some competent to great shooters, they weren't exactly consistent. Not to mention they've been responsible for some run-of-the-mill shooters in the past so I can understand the worry that people might think they'd deliver a run-of-the-mill open-world game (with incredible graphics) but thankfully, a fair amount of people were pleasantly surprised.
It's interesting because it feels as if Mass Effect has doubts around it because it's a studio that has a track-record of delivering excellent space-opera RPGs but is fumbling at every turn when it comes to demos and marketing. Whereas Guerilla was a studio that was delivering non-stop amazing demos and previews but people weren't sure if Guerilla was a company that could pull it off.
As for EZA skepticism/excitement regarding recent titles, it feels like people are irritated when they're more excited than themselves but also when they're less excited. I think the only way to win is during podcasts when an upcoming game is discussed, it just goes like...
"Persona 5?"
"That is a video game that is coming out."
"Yes, supposedly April"
"Great discussion"
It's interesting because it feels as if Mass Effect has doubts around it because it's a studio that has a track-record of delivering excellent space-opera RPGs but is fumbling at every turn when it comes to demos and marketing. Whereas Guerilla was a studio that was delivering non-stop amazing demos and previews but people weren't sure if Guerilla was a company that could pull it off.
As for EZA skepticism/excitement regarding recent titles, it feels like people are irritated when they're more excited than themselves but also when they're less excited. I think the only way to win is during podcasts when an upcoming game is discussed, it just goes like...
"Persona 5?"
"That is a video game that is coming out."
"Yes, supposedly April"
"Great discussion"
Exploratory
Banned
When MEA was first announced I hated everything that I heard. I hated the open world and the pandering to those who liked ME1. But in time my fears were proven wrong. Andromeda is still Mass Effect at its core.
When people said open world Zelda some groaned too. Guerilla making an open world game? Groan. But I believe the trend of open-world games surprising everyone with their quality will continue.
Primethius
Banned
With Horizon, even people who were excited for the game didn't really expect what we ended up getting in the final product.
I was excited about it since the initial reveal but expected, because of past GG games, a really poor story and explanations for the state of the world that would probably be convoluted or worse, groan-inducing.
Contrast thay with the actual product, which while it has misses here and there with the writing, still tells a pretty interesting and fantastic story that's just really smart in a lot of ways.
I think the pre-release skepticism was warranted for several reasons and the end result was definitely surprising on several grounds.
I was excited about it since the initial reveal but expected, because of past GG games, a really poor story and explanations for the state of the world that would probably be convoluted or worse, groan-inducing.
Contrast thay with the actual product, which while it has misses here and there with the writing, still tells a pretty interesting and fantastic story that's just really smart in a lot of ways.
I think the pre-release skepticism was warranted for several reasons and the end result was definitely surprising on several grounds.
Man I wish I had started work on this "best of" stuff a week or two earlier than I did, have been cutting it close for a while though trying to stick to the schedule. The whole "special launch schedule for their anniversary month" idea didn't come to me till pretty much a couple of days before I started. Literally all my free time (which is a lot) this past week has been either watching EZA vids, or skimming through EZA vids, or editing up these best of videos.
Gravity Rush 2, Yakuza 0, Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata are just sitting on the desk next to me, unplayed. And FFXV unfinished. I did one different thing this week, which was watching Logan in theaters and that only happened because the lights in my neighborhood went out and the estimated time of it coming back wasn't for a few hours.
Even told my friends I was busy this weekend. And I am. Working on these videos. LOL.
Hopefully I can gain some ground, maybe get a cushion of one or two videos rather than editing till just a few hours before the publishing deadlines that I've set with this launch schedule.
It'll be waaaay more manageable/doable once it gets to the normal weekly schedule.
Gravity Rush 2, Yakuza 0, Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata are just sitting on the desk next to me, unplayed. And FFXV unfinished. I did one different thing this week, which was watching Logan in theaters and that only happened because the lights in my neighborhood went out and the estimated time of it coming back wasn't for a few hours.
Even told my friends I was busy this weekend. And I am. Working on these videos. LOL.
Hopefully I can gain some ground, maybe get a cushion of one or two videos rather than editing till just a few hours before the publishing deadlines that I've set with this launch schedule.
It'll be waaaay more manageable/doable once it gets to the normal weekly schedule.
wapplew
Member
EZA was very excited about Horizon, just go back and watch E6 2016 reaction.
I think the turning point was Tallneck hacking trailer and the game quickly related to Ubisoft's tower open world and killed all the hype.
It's an interesting phenomenon, how marketing materials bring and kill excitement.
I think the turning point was Tallneck hacking trailer and the game quickly related to Ubisoft's tower open world and killed all the hype.
It's an interesting phenomenon, how marketing materials bring and kill excitement.
Option D is like that mystery box pick that has the undeniable lure of the unknown
and then you open it and realize you should've picked literally any other option
and then you open it and realize you should've picked literally any other option
sweet jesus I just looked it up (after voting, obviously) and tehre's a reason it doesn't have any of the game's art on the box
brotkasten
Member
That Easy Update is just fun.
E: In other news, 98k subs on YouTube. I really hope they can make it before or during the anniversary.
E: In other news, 98k subs on YouTube. I really hope they can make it before or during the anniversary.
Didn't both Kyle and Brandon liked what they played at e3?
That game went from "hype" to "it's gonna potentially flop"within five minutes of Alloy climbing a tallneck at the pro reveal. It was ridiculous.
With regards to the the open world fatique while that's a valid point this criticism is never applied to fps games for example, of which we had tons of. So again that seems to be a strange argument.
I'm not trying to pick at you Ben. I know how we feel about something can't be rationally explained. I was just a bit bewildered tbat EZA seemed to suddenly be down on that one.
It did seem like a lot of the skepticism came as soon as they realized the tallnecks were effectively towers. From that moment on the conversation around Horizon was more pessimistic. It felt like everyone was suddenly dehyped (everyone except Jones that is). Of course this is just from a viewer's perspective. Maybe the group wasn't as hard on the game as it seemed, but it felt like the allies predicted it to flop solely because of towers. And i remember it being a quick and sudden shift in opinion.
My memory could be off, but I think Horizon was picked as a Toaster Strudel on the podcast once before the tower reveal... I'm pretty sure Ian was out the moment he saw a crafting menu. I don't think we can blame it on that one moment, though that did definitely hurt the game for EZA expectations (and my own as well). I don't think the reaction was unfair based on what was shown, as they and many others have expressed disdain for Ubi-towers for some time.
I'm glad the game turned out great though, can't wait to play it some time after the Zelda/Nier/Persona wombo combo.
I'm glad the game turned out great though, can't wait to play it some time after the Zelda/Nier/Persona wombo combo.
My hype deflated immediately with the Tower-trailer, too. It picked up towards release, but never matched the intial phase between reveal and PSX. And at the end the game itself landed somewhere in between. The tower-hype-deflation was certainly a good thing for me balancing my expectations.
I wonder if the tower reveal was Brandon's favourite trailer for the game...? Without that $45,000 Patreon tier, we'll never know!
I'm in agony trying to decide whether to play Yakuza 0 or Zelda today. Just like yesterday. And just like the Allies, my copy of Nioh is just...sitting there!
I'm in agony trying to decide whether to play Yakuza 0 or Zelda today. Just like yesterday. And just like the Allies, my copy of Nioh is just...sitting there!
This tower hate is ridiculous.
Towers are just a tool like any other, and they can be used in a good or a bad way, but for some reason they've become the poste child of bad design, because of a couple of titles.
Meanwhile the checklist in open world games has always been there, and will probably be for a long time, and it's all about how you make that checklist feel, that matters.
Towers are just a tool like any other, and they can be used in a good or a bad way, but for some reason they've become the poste child of bad design, because of a couple of titles.
Meanwhile the checklist in open world games has always been there, and will probably be for a long time, and it's all about how you make that checklist feel, that matters.
I love towers. But if you show me a tower today my first thought is "same old same old" regardless.
To be fair Zelda has towers and no one was down on it since it was revealed it has towers.
Yeah but i dont get why.
It's like... Bayonetta uses the "same old" design convention of having magic portals block an area until youre done killing everyone, it's not a problem.
Metroidvanias all use the same conventions, i could go on.
Granted "open world" is a design element, not a genre, but towers are just a sub element/design convention like any other.
Like having to get back to your corpse Dark Souls style, that seems to be so popular now.
It seems drone-like shallow criticism to me.
Why are towers a universally bad element of design?
That was my perception of how they felt as well. I thought I must have missed some other media because it was so sudden and strange.
But it happened and so what. Now you can take lessons from how wrong you were to knee-jerk about Ubisoft open world templates, given that WD2, Zelda and HZD all have towers but their implementation and impact on design is different from each other and from games in the AC2 mold.
It is a lazy shortcut to dismiss a collection of game design that you don't like or think has been overused. It's not just towers, it's all the other things that come with it: Gating of content, lots of meaningless trinket collectibles.
I've used this shortcut myself, but when WD2 came out it turned out to be false positive. Now you adjust.
Another example: I've watched the Shadow of War footage and my lazy shortcuts that I've developed over the years tells me: I don't like Mosou games because the difficulty they present in their games is not the difficulty I enjoy and the video looks like a Mosou game with no danger fighting regular enemies. They seem to be mobile filling up energy and teleportation stations.
The boss fights look like they interrupt a lot and it's not clear to me why anyone takes any damage. I can't see what the player is doing in my mind's eye as the rules of this video game are opaque.
I presume the player pressed square a lot but why did the second square not hit, despite looking like the third square that did damage and the fourth cause an Orc to spawn?
Because It's not being "same old", it's just bad. Before about last year, they almost universally cluttered up your map with a checklist of uninteresting busy work. UbiSoft gave you the map before that, so you had to spend time climbing some stupid thing to clutter up your map with things that are mostly not worth it. Luckily, in Zelda, you discover almost everything for yourself and the towers just fill in the topology so I'm just hoping that it's what carries on in the future.
I had no real love for Horizon other than robot dinos because I didn't think GG had made a good game yet. Glad to be wrong though.
To me at least, the problem was realizing the game was going into a completely different direction compared to what the reveal trailer induced me to think.
Thought it was a Monster Hunter-ish game with an overworld where you had to find towns or story locations, like an old RPG, not a full open world game with focus on RPG-ish/crafting mechanics, like Far Cry or Tomb Raider, dunno, with all the baggage those game have. Former is right up into my alley, latter is not, so...
That first trailer though. It was GREAT.
On the phone so ill keep it brief, but what is "bad" about that? In an open world getting a lay of the land is an important thing and having a vantage point to do so is pretty logical.
Seems to me like the "clutter" (most games have icon filters for the map, btw) and busy work are really the problem, and even then its a much deeper discussion about what is a good gameplay loop and what game systems are worth the repetition because, more often than not, "busy work" copy pasted activities are just an escamotage to have you play around with the game's systems.
Whether those systems hold their weight its a whole discussion, but one too many degrees removed to "oh no, ubi-towers!".
So yeah, it seems like a shallow way to approach and critique the issue.
Well i cant comment on what were your personal expectations, thats fair enough.
Id say though, Tomb Raider and FC dont have that much in common.
TR now a 3d metroidvania essentially, like Batman AA, Legacy of Kain and even Dark Souls to an extent.
Brian_FETO
Banned
I'm proud of Patrons voting for Tail of the Sun
That was the one that stood out to me (because it shows the least) but I figured everyone would vote for All Star Karate (which is surely gutter trash)
That was the one that stood out to me (because it shows the least) but I figured everyone would vote for All Star Karate (which is surely gutter trash)
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Started choking on my coffee at that. Brilliant.
Exploratory
Banned
Wow now that it's being talked about I remember the exact moment Aloy climbed one of those robots and EZA noped the fuck out.
Nah, the tower revealing all of that removes the mystery before you get to it. lay of the land is cool and I've appreciated having a map to be filled in throughout Zelda, but you climb up a Ubi tower, even filtered out, that's all done. "Ugh, fetch quest. Skip". Whereas I stumble on it in Zelda from a random conversation from someone in the middle of the forest. "You want 10 of those things?! SURE!". It's why, in spite of all their problems, I will take a Bethesda game over a Ubi open game every time. The things you stumble on are fantastic and so much better than revealing a checklist and having glowy things on the road to indicate that a mission will be there.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
The "omg towers" negativity at EZA was a particular lowpoint over the last year as it was particularly dumb. Boiling a game down to that base level of "you do this so its as bad as this" is the sort of anti-intellectual games analysis that deserves ridicule. It became particularly hilarious when it was revealed Zelda had towers as well.
Ian being antagonistic towards Horizon was also one of those "don't complain about representation in games then bag on the ones that follow through" situations that paint the Tumblr/Twitter 'i don't actually play games' crowd in particularly bad light. If its never going to be an actual selling point for you, time to hand in that card.
Ian being antagonistic towards Horizon was also one of those "don't complain about representation in games then bag on the ones that follow through" situations that paint the Tumblr/Twitter 'i don't actually play games' crowd in particularly bad light. If its never going to be an actual selling point for you, time to hand in that card.
The hell? A game can have good representation and still look dumb. If the game ended up being shit, people shouldn't have bought it just because it had a female lead, you'd just hope the next one is better and that the whole industry gets better so there doesn't need to be a single poster child.
No-ones painted in a bad light other than that line of thinking, that you have to totally like the look of anything just because it has one element you really wish you could see more of.
When the design language of a game communicated in media gives hints that "this will be another open world Ubisoft type bore, here's your checklist and your icons", it's perfectly fair to become pessimistic. There's nothing "anti-intellectual" about having feelings towards something and taking a wait-and-see approach.
Just because you want fair representation in games doesn't mean you are required to love all games that promote diversity. The game still has to be good. That's the same level of thinking as "this game has zombies in it therefore it's a good game" or "i chopped off an orc head therefore this is a good game". That's ludicrous. You can very plainly appreciate what a game does for advancing representation while still finding the game to be a complete bore.
"Stumbling on" feels good in and out of itself (that probably changes from game to game), but a bad quest is a bad quest.
"Collect 10 flowers" is usually bad because the systems that go into it either aren't fun (traversal in most games simply isn't interesting) or don't elevate in any way what you're already doing on normal play (you're usually collecting flowers by virtue of going around already).
Climbing a mountain just to have an old hermit ask me to go fetch 10 flowers, ain't going to make that any different.
At the end of the day, towers have become an element of convenience and accessibility, usually optional, to map out activities that are designed in a modular and methodical fashion in the first place.
I get not wanting it spoiled, but the way most open worlds are designed, they're basically minigolf courses of repeated activities anyway, so the joy of exploration is really minimal either way, the thrill of exploration is only present with the implied promise of surprise.
Wandering the map with the realization that the only thing you'll find in the same 4-5 activities the tower would've told you, isn't all that interesting, just prolonging the inevitable.
Also Bethesda games work somewhat differently because contrary to something like Watch Dogs or GTA, they're full on RPGs (even though they implement, and are based around, the stupid ass compass, which really defeats the very purpose you're talking about, at least since Oblivion onward).
This is the reason why i say that open world is a mechanic, not a genre.
Moreover, and here the crux of the argument, there's really many ways you can implement towers in your game (like any other mechanic!), and a bit like when people frowned upon regenerating health or auto-save, a couple of years back, there are good and bad examples of it... like any other mechanic.
Make the tower a bit of a challenge to climb, make them few and far between (5 or 6 for the average Skyrim-sized world) and have them reveal just some basic information (main safe hubs, maybe critical path quest.
For good measure, make it so it's an active search, like in Mad Max, so it feels actually organic.
Then have them be optional, so you don't have to do it.
Do this and it'll give a bit of direction and accessibility for people intimidated by open worlds, while maintaining a plausible feel to it.
And while we're talking about "feels", in Assassin's Creed 2 towers actually gave you a cathartic sense, when you just unlocked/got to a new area, again, giving some structure to what could otherwise feel too loose for a lot of people.
Personally i don't mind the "dropped into the world, now go do whatever" approach myself, infact, it's my favorite way of tackling open world, but this is not true for everyone, and some structure is needed for some.
Fair points, but since towers turned a lot of people off Ubi games and they hadn't been done well until Zelda and potentially Horizon (I haven't played it), I think it's fair enough to groan about them until they are done well. It's like if for some reason, Shotguns hadn't been done well until now, it would be fair to groan about them appearing in a trailer until someone had done them right.
From now on, if towers appear in anything but an UbiSoft game, I'll not be immediately turned off until I know how they work, because they have now been done well.
Primethius
Banned
Horizon doesn't do anything interesting with the towers from a gameplay perspective. Recent Ubisoft games have evolved that gameplay concept as well to be far more involving that I don't think it's fair to generalize Ubisofts brand of implementation as being particularly negative (e.g puzzles in WD2 towers).
But then again, I always found the hatred towards towers a bit overblown. The core gameplay loop in a lot of Ubisoft games was not entertaining enough or simply not deep enough to support the plethora of extraneous activities they put in and towers just highlighted a lot of those flaws but by themselves, weren't much of an issue.
Horizon doesn't do much to them gameplay wise but they are interesting from a lore perspective, just to get a beautiful view and survey the surroundings and to add a lot of character to the world. Luckily, the game doesn't really have many of them (4 I think total, maybe 5) and it's not really part of the gameplay loop nor does it try to make it seem that way. More or an end reward in a scenario that has combat encounters surrounding it.
But then again, I always found the hatred towards towers a bit overblown. The core gameplay loop in a lot of Ubisoft games was not entertaining enough or simply not deep enough to support the plethora of extraneous activities they put in and towers just highlighted a lot of those flaws but by themselves, weren't much of an issue.
Horizon doesn't do much to them gameplay wise but they are interesting from a lore perspective, just to get a beautiful view and survey the surroundings and to add a lot of character to the world. Luckily, the game doesn't really have many of them (4 I think total, maybe 5) and it's not really part of the gameplay loop nor does it try to make it seem that way. More or an end reward in a scenario that has combat encounters surrounding it.
Ubisoft games themselves have pretty different implementations of them.
I had a long post to write about review scores and such, but I didn't have access to a physical keyboard until it was too late to post about it. I don't have strong feelings about towers though.
I voted for All Star Karate, but did identify Tail of the Sun "qualities." I think it's fair to say almost all of the dumb games are trash in one way or another
WadiumArcadium
Member
Glad I went back to watch the Wii U stream. Those eulogies were so good. "Stay dead."
PepperedHam
Member
Watching through those Best Of compilations and this moment where Damiani is reading through that Zelda book is killing me, so funny: https://youtu.be/5I34lDyrlSg?t=4m31s
These Best Of videos are a gift. I miss out on individual stream moments often so including those in these compilations and not just group stream and podcast stuff is such good work.
These Best Of videos are a gift. I miss out on individual stream moments often so including those in these compilations and not just group stream and podcast stuff is such good work.
LiquidSolid
Member
"Persona 5 looks like nothing to me" - Bloodworth, 2017
Seriously though, that's fine. I've been really looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine for ages though (a sci-fi turn based RPG inspired by Chrono Trigger, Suikoden AND Phantasy Star?!), so that combined with Persona 5 makes it a big month for me.
This isn't directed specifically at you but I remember there being like 3-4 EZA Podcasts and Frame Trap's in a row last year that talked about Horizon in a negative light. Most of those were probably Ian but still, when you talk about something negatively that often, it doesn't come across as just scepticism, it comes across as pessimism. It was pretty annoying at the time, especially since GAF had a TON of concern trolling over it around then too.
Fallout New Vegas lead writer tho. I was fairly confident its story would, at the very least, be decent due to the fact it had John Gonzalez's name attached to it.
As for the Mass Effect Andromeda talk, my opinion on Bioware is they're the Dreamworks of videogames. They have the odd stinker but they're generally decent to good, though never really great. They make fun characters but mediocre plots overall. And they're very formulaic. I'm sure I'll play Andromeda eventually and I do like that they're going back to ME1-style exploration instead of the poorly designed corridors of ME2/3 but I'm in no rush to play it, especially not when it's stuck in the middle of NieR and Persona 5.
Speaking of NieR, I started it after wrapping up Horizon over the weekend (which was fucking awesome btw). I'm not too far in but it's preeeeetty good. Taro Yoko is the best.
Primethius
Banned
Yea, in hindsight I should've given that more credit. I guess I wasn't expecting one person to make such a difference and that was a mistake.
Horizons story just blew me away with how good and smart it ended up being.
Elfforkusu
Member
Allies, after many hours of effing around in Zelda and many more to go, I think this is One of the Greats.
PS: how do I submit a podcast correction?
PS: how do I submit a podcast correction?
Kyle has said he reads the podcast youtube comments.
What a masochist.
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