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[Miles Quaritch]

Do you follow gaming news at all? Did you see the recent fellow who took his Nintendo Wii U back to the retailer and lost hundreds of dollars in games because he did so instead of contacting Nintendo? Yeah.

People take the path of least resistance, especially if they can afford it. People were being told they were out of warranty after 90 days, which to most Americans means, "YOU ARE FUCKED!" So they headed out to buy another one. Also, we as a culture are trained that phone support and customer service is awful. If you can afford it, why call? You're just going to get the runaround and have to pay nearly as much to get a refurbished unit anyway!

This was the prevailing wisdom of the time, too.

Anyone who doesn't see it this way is just sticking their head in the sand... STILL... after years of watching those things fail. That's how I feel about it and my mind won't ever change on the issue. Microsoft knows the real numbers, and they're never going to talk, so we're at an impasse where you can't prove you're right either. I like my informed theory a lot more than yours.

One person doesn't equal millions of people. That story is also very different in that his perception of account based systems wasn't properly aligned to how Nintendo deal with accounts.

I don't believe you're right at all. There's nothing to suggest that people just threw away their old consoles and bought new ones. It's supposition and poorly thought out supposition at that.

It makes much more sense to assume that while a small percentage did indeed buy new consoles when their old broke down, it's not in the region of ten million. It is, in fact, much more likely that people used their warranties to get their console repaired or contacted Microsoft directly.

I just counted my boxed games. It's 305. Digital purchases easily make up another 100. The games are spread out around the flat, and I can't be bothered to make a neat little pile to photo, right now. Especially as the girlfriend didn't look too keen on the idea. I'll have more time at the weekend, I'll try then, and PM it to you.

I'd like to say that I'm only pointing out that using the numbers that Microsoft releases on sold boxes and live users isn't a reliable way of deciding how many users there actually are. It has to be less. Fact. I'm neither claiming it's a large or small amount.

I'm in awe. I don't trade in my games, but I'm just barely breaching the 100 game milestone.

 

[jbug617]

I just asked Paul Thurott (Windows Super Site) about when should we expect to hear about the next Xbox and he said in 2 months and will be available this holiday.

 

[abadguy]

I just asked Paul Thurott (Windows Super Site) about when should we expect to hear about the next Xbox and he said in 2 months and will be available this holiday.

Wasn't that the guy hinting at MS releasing more than one xbox on that tech show?

 

[Doffen]

Wasn't that the guy hinting at MS releasing more than one xbox on that tech show?

I wouldn't be surprised to see an Xbox branded top-set box to compete with Apple TV.

 

[Quasar]

I wouldn't be surprised to see an Xbox branded top-set box to compete with Apple TV.

Well isn't that where the 360 is headed?

 

[Tyrax]

I wouldn't be surprised to see an Xbox branded top-set box to compete with Apple TV.

Maybe if Apple TV where a successful product

 

[CLEEK]

1. Microsoft have sold 76 million Xbox
360s. I've over 7 years bought 3 new ones. I'm one user. Do you really think that every RROD xbox was replaced for free by Microsoft?

I went through 5 RRoDs, and had my original launch unit replaced/repaired each time. The last RRoD occurred just before the cut-off for free repair. If/when my console dies the next time, I'll need to replace it with another one. I was hoping it would live long enough to be replaced by the next Xbox, but that is looking likely to be BC. Bummer.

Anecdotal, I know, but pretty much every one of my 360 owning friends, who tend to play on their 360s more than I do, retired their unreliable original units and replaced them with Elites or 360 S.

Of course there are a subset of those 76m Xboxes that are replacement units. Or second consoles for the bedroom. To claim otherwise is such a bizarre viewpoint.

 

[saunderez]

Maybe if Apple TV where a successful product

The people who keep suggesting that Apple have already won the battle for the TV before it's even started totally ignore the Apple TVs existence. It hasn't failed because they don't count it. Despite it being in it's third iteration.

 

[Tyrax]

It hasn't failed because they don't count it.

They don't count it because it has failed

 

[Baconsammy]

Anyone who doesn't see it this way is just sticking their head in the sand... STILL... after years of watching those things fail. That's how I feel about it and my mind won't ever change on the issue. Microsoft knows the real numbers, and they're never going to talk, so we're at an impasse where you can't prove you're right either. I like my informed theory a lot more than yours.

All your theory does is prove the 360 has had the highest attach rate of any console ever. That's far more valuable than selling a lot of consoles.

 

[Doffen]

Well isn't that where the 360 is headed?

It's too big. Needs to be small and stylish. Probably running ARM and streaming games.

Maybe if Apple TV where a successful product

Should they wait for Apple TV to be successful?

 

[Tyrax]

Should they wait for Apple TV to be successful?

No, they should not copy Apple and continue taking their own approach by having the box that does it all.

 

[Brad Grenz]

All your theory does is prove the 360 has had the highest attach rate of any console ever. That's far more valuable than selling a lot of consoles.

No one disputes that. It was also out a year longer in the longest cycle ever, so that's to be expected.

 

[Baconsammy]

No one disputes that. It was also out a year longer in the longest cycle ever, so that's to be expected.

The longer consoles sell, the lower the attach rate goes. Mostly because the people that come to the console later are more casual gamers. In the case of the 360, a lot of Kinect bundles sold and those people are more than likely hurting the attach rate and not helping it.

 

[EGM1966]

All your theory does is prove the 360 has had the highest attach rate of any console ever. That's far more valuable than selling a lot of consoles.

Not to butt in but it's a balance - having a high attach rate is certainly not better than selling a lot of consoles. A high attach rate and low consoles sales is useless. You need the right balance between volume and price (and of course cost to deliver profit). For example look at unit sales of Xbox to attach rate for Halo 2.

Don't get me wrong, the 360 definitely has a very good unit volume/attach rate situation but one doesn't outweigh the other as both have to be good if you want true success with a console and software sales.

 

[Mdk7]

No second hand games?
Disgusting if true.

THIS.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Wasn't that the guy hinting at MS releasing more than one xbox on that tech show?

Not anymore on a recent podcast(either Windows Weekly or What The Tech) he said that was true a little while back but the idea was dropped.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I went through 5 RRoDs, and had my original launch unit replaced/repaired each time. The last RRoD occurred just before the cut-off for free repair. If/when my console dies the next time, I'll need to replace it with another one. I was hoping it would live long enough to be replaced by the next Xbox, but that is looking likely to be BC. Bummer.

Anecdotal, I know, but pretty much every one of my 360 owning friends, who tend to play on their 360s more than I do, retired their unreliable original units and replaced them with Elites or 360 S.

Of course there are a subset of those 76m Xboxes that are replacement units. Or second consoles for the bedroom. To claim otherwise is such a bizarre viewpoint.

I'd argue the same applies to the playstation 3. More so in fact due to their limited warranty and their not acknowledging the wider problem of the yellow light of death and the failure rate of first shipment playstation 3 consoles.

Overall, it's fair to say that both the xbox 360 and playstation 3 sales figures are inflated through people buying newer consoles.

Saying that, I'd argue it's less of a inflation for the 360 due to the three year warranty offered to all consumers compared to the one year warranty offered by sony, not to mention that it's actually more prudent to buy a new playstation 3 than have it repaired for the obscene price of £135 compared to the more realistic and affordable £65 repair fee for xbox 360.

 

[pappe]

Lets say MS or Sony do go forward with this no second hand games nonsense but also drop the prices of the new games from ~60$ to 40-50$ bracket. Would it be a good thing?

Sorry if discussed earlier have not been following this thread.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Not anymore on a recent podcast(either Windows Weekly or What The Tech) he said that was true a little while back but the idea was dropped.

I still believe in the 361.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Lets say MS or Sony do go forward with this no second hand games nonsense but also drop the prices of the new games from ~60$ to 40-50$ bracket. Would it be a good thing?

Sorry if discussed earlier have not been following this thread.

No, I don't believe that is a good thing. If they are aiming to destroy or interrupt the second had market (which will be impossible in the EU due to recent ruling about selling digital licences), they will need to adopt a much more aggressive pricing strategy to ensure the console gaming market doesn't fall into sharp decline.

 

[Doffen]

No, they should not copy Apple and continue taking their own approach by having the box that does it all.

Who's talking about copying? I'm talking about a competing product.

 

[maquiladora]

Saw this posted in the OT.

Made me think of some of the Durango rumors.

With the launch of Office 2013 Microsoft has seen fit to upgrade the terms of the license agreement, and it's not in favor of the end user. It seems installing a copy of the latest version of Microsoft's Office suite of apps ties it to a single machine. For life.

What does that mean in real terms? It means if your machine dies or you upgrade to a new computer you cannot take a copy of Office 2013 with you to new hardware. You will need to purchase another copy, which again will be tied to the machine it is installed upon forever.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-retail-versions-office-single-install.shtml

If I upgrade to a new computer and decommission the old one, or if my old PC dies, can I move my retail copy to Office 2013 to that computer? Another reply from Microsoft PR;

"No, the customer cannot transfer the license from one PC to another PC."

http://www.theage.com.au/technology...13-die-with-your-computer-20130208-2e3a1.html

 

[Dave Long]

I'd argue the same applies to the playstation 3. More so in fact due to their limited warranty and their not acknowledging the wider problem of the yellow light of death and the failure rate of first shipment playstation 3 consoles.

Overall, it's fair to say that both the xbox 360 and playstation 3 sales figures are inflated through people buying newer consoles.

Saying that, I'd argue it's less of a inflation for the 360 due to the three year warranty offered to all consumers compared to the one year warranty offered by sony, not to mention that it's actually more prudent to buy a new playstation 3 than have it repaired for the obscene price of £135 compared to the more realistic and affordable £65 repair fee for xbox 360.

This is crazy talk. The PlayStation 3 has nowhere near the failure rate of the 360. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Also... you're in Europe somewhere, so your consumer laws are different, thus giving you a skewed perspective on how a company is expected tor respond to failing hardware. In the US, people are just conditioned to ashcan busted electronics because they feel like dealing with the manufacturer is often pointless, time-consuming and ultimately a failed endeavor.

And for Baconsammy, I said flat out that the 360 has a huge attach rate. It's got that whole game of the month thing going for it. People see what their friends are playing and go buy that game to keep up with the Joneses. Also, many 360 gamers were migrated PC gamers from the original Xbox. Those people have money to burn and buy a lot of games. That all has fueled the strong software sales of 360.

If I thought I could get Microsoft on the record about all this, I'd write a damn book.

Saw this posted in the OT.

Made me think of some of the Durango rumors.



http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-retail-versions-office-single-install.shtml

Nintendo sets the precedent again, confirmed?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

This is crazy talk. The PlayStation 3 has nowhere near the failure rate of the 360. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Also... you're in Europe somewhere, so your consumer laws are different, thus giving you a skewed perspective on how a company is expected tor respond to failing hardware. In the US, people are just conditioned to ashcan busted electronics because they feel like dealing with the manufacturer is often pointless, time-consuming and ultimately a failed endeavor..

It's not crazy talk, the 60gb PS3 model does, or at least did, suffer from high failure rates.

Stores in the US do not offer a years warranty? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

Maybe my perspective is skewed by my living in the EU, but that's beside the point. Your initial assertion was that close to 10 million people purchased a new console when their old one faulted, I do not believe this. It's simply in the realm of believability.

 

[mrklaw]

The software attach rate on 360 has to be enormous. It's nearly EIGHT YEARS OLD!

People trying to discount the busted systems counting toward that 76 million number are only fooling themselves. In the first three years on sale, the 360 was supremely unreliable hardware. Many people bought replacements before the billion dollar payoff. That could easily number up to ten million by now given old systems keep on failing today and many replace with the new revision.

Also, include all those who bought the new revision just because. It's a high number, and that probably means attach rate on 360 is higher than reported. Substantially higher.

All of the above is very easy to believe.

you could probably do the math - I'm surprised if nobody has tried yet, or maybe they enjoy leaving it as conjecture?

We should have sales figures for the first few years when RROD was really bad, and estimates of failure rates - should be fairly straightforward to estimate how many repairs/refurbs/new machines were required.

I do expect most would simply be replacements from MS though rather than new purchases, especially as MS extended the warranty period for affected machines.

 

[Emitan]

As if you ever even play 20-year old games on their native hardware in 2012

Actually I do. All the time. I was playing Yoshi's Island earlier this week.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Saw this posted in the OT.

Made me think of some of the Durango rumors.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-retail-versions-office-single-install.shtml

http://www.theage.com.au/technology...13-die-with-your-computer-20130208-2e3a1.html

This appears to be a very poor and misguided attempt to encourage people to subscribe to Office365.

 

[Dave Long]

It's not crazy talk, the 60gb PS3 model does, or at least did, suffer from high failure rates.

Stores in the US do not offer a years warranty? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

Maybe my perspective is skewed by my living in the EU, but that's beside the point. Your initial assertion was that close to 10 million people purchased a new console when their old one faulted, I do not believe this. It's simply in the realm of believability.

Stores? Offer a one year warranty that isn't an added cost? No. There is no such thing. You have about ten days from purchase. After that, you're on your own with the manufacturer.

 

[chubigans]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like MS doesn't have any problems at all switching over to the no-used-games policy. With the articles pointing to the new Xbox being more media/entertainment focused, I don't think they'll have any problems shutting out two audiences that didn't directly make them any money last gen (used game buyers and piracy) in favor of a more controlled marketplace that allows them to set game prices exclusively, both in retail and digitally.

It's going to happen. I just wonder how we'll find out about it...probably via fine print or an MS rep confirming it on the E3 floor.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Stores? Offer a one year warranty that isn't an added cost? No. There is no such thing. You have about ten days from purchase. After that, you're on your own with the manufacturer.

Really? No US Store offers a one year warranty on purchased electronics?

Still, if people know to contact the manufacturer, that throws your initial assertion into doubt. Why would nearly 10 million people throw away their consoles instead of contacting Microsoft? Even for convenience sake, throwing away something that cost upwards of $300 away only to buy another one seems unbelievable.

 

[ascii42]

It's going to happen. I just wonder how we'll find out about it...probably via fine print or an MS rep confirming it on the E3 floor.

Yeah. That's not exactly the kind of thing they'll announce at their conference. Not unless they come up with some amazing way to spin it.

 

[dafrocka]

Indeed!

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like MS doesn't have any problems at all switching over to the no-used-games policy. With the articles pointing to the new Xbox being more media/entertainment focused, I don't think they'll have any problems shutting out two audiences that didn't directly make them any money last gen (used game buyers and piracy) in favor of a more controlled marketplace that allows them to set game prices exclusively, both in retail and digitally.

It's going to happen. I just wonder how we'll find out about it...probably via fine print or an MS rep confirming it on the E3 floor.

I don't believe it will happen, at least not straight away.

What we'll see is the beginnings of such a move, perhaps a set up where buying games and installing them gives you the option to "register" that game to your console which would then allow you to play that game from the hard-drive without needing the disc in the drive.

A no used games solution isn't likely in my opinion, at least not yet. The market hasn't been properly conditioned to accept such a move.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Lets say MS or Sony do go forward with this no second hand games nonsense but also drop the prices of the new games from ~60$ to 40-50$ bracket. Would it be a good thing?

Sorry if discussed earlier have not been following this thread.

Not for me. What I would be losing from the no second hand games plan is worth more then $20.

I don't sell my games, and barely buy second hand. I do buy a lot of games though. A big part of the fun of games is loaning to and borrowing from friends. Everybody I know has been doing this since the Atari days. It's a great way to introduce friends to series that they would otherwise pass over. It's enjoyable and it's our right.

 

[DodgerSan]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like MS doesn't have any problems at all switching over to the no-used-games policy. With the articles pointing to the new Xbox being more media/entertainment focused, I don't think they'll have any problems shutting out two audiences that didn't directly make them any money last gen (used game buyers and piracy) in favor of a more controlled marketplace that allows them to set game prices exclusively, both in retail and digitally.

It's going to happen. I just wonder how we'll find out about it...probably via fine print or an MS rep confirming it on the E3 floor.

But of the vilified 'used game buyers' (I feel dirty just saying it) how many were used games exclusively? I have around 50 games for my 360 and would estimate that only around 5-6 of those were bought used.

And of those used titles what about DLC? Online passes etc? I have games that I bought used that I certainly would not have bought full price if that was the only option, but I then went on to buy add-ons for. So the argument could be made that without the used market those titles would have seen zero money from me.

 

[Dave Long]

Not for me. What I would be losing from the no second hand games plan is worth more then $20.

I don't sell my games, and barely buy second hand. I do buy a lot of games though. A big part of the fun of games is loaning to and borrowing from friends. Everybody I know has been doing this since the Atari days. It's a great way to introduce friends to series that they would otherwise pass over. It's enjoyable and it's our right.

I just bought Fire Emblem for the 3DS on cartridge specifically because we have four Nintendo 3DS systems in the house and buying it digitally would have meant only one of us would own it on our personal system. If we all want to play that digital download, we'd have to use that person's own 3DS. That sucks. The other option if we want to play is buy the same game FOUR times for a total layout of $160! Not gonna happen!

Sure, home consoles are a little different, but what if they also tie these games to profiles somehow? It's not unprecedented for that kind of thing to happen. Ugh... there are just so many reasons that digital distribution is wrong. Even Steam has weaknesses I've discussed before such as no parental controls, lack of profiles for family member accounts (again... you have to buy the game multiple times... ugh), and more.

I really hate some aspects of this digital future so much...

 

[Uno Venova]

Saw this posted in the OT.

Made me think of some of the Durango rumors.



http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-retail-versions-office-single-install.shtml



http://www.theage.com.au/technology...13-die-with-your-computer-20130208-2e3a1.html

if they're stupid enough to do that then who even knows anymore.

 

[QaaQer]

if they're stupid enough to do that then who even knows anymore.

Man, Microsoft needs to be taken down a notch or two. Retail software tied to one machine, not even Nintendo does that.

 

[mrklaw]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like MS doesn't have any problems at all switching over to the no-used-games policy. With the articles pointing to the new Xbox being more media/entertainment focused, I don't think they'll have any problems shutting out two audiences that didn't directly make them any money last gen (used game buyers and piracy) in favor of a more controlled marketplace that allows them to set game prices exclusively, both in retail and digitally.

It's going to happen. I just wonder how we'll find out about it...probably via fine print or an MS rep confirming it on the E3 floor.

New MS office licensing restrictions, plus Windows 8 App Store points in that direction IMO. Just a question of whether they think they can pull it off without damaging their business too much

 

[Delusibeta]

Man, Microsoft needs to be taken down a notch or two. Retail software tied to one machine, not even Nintendo does that.

Who knows. Certainly, I think that most people here are wildly overestimating how much the Xbox 3 (and PlayStation 4) will sell, and Microsoft seems arrogant enough to trigger the Third Console Curse right on time. All we really need is to Apple announce that a new version of Apple TV will run all of the iOS apps and offer a official controller accessory for it and we'll have an interesting game on out hands. Either that, or one of the Kickstarted Android consoles catching on.

 

[Eusis]

Man, Microsoft needs to be taken down a notch or two. Retail software tied to one machine, not even Nintendo does that.

I don't think you can get Office 2013 at retail, not that that actually changes anything. And I've stressed over and over that PC is a very different field from consoles with how open it is, it's why the "but Steam doesn't allow used games!" argument is largely crap, only mattering for those that somehow aren't really familiar with Steam and/or PC gaming.

Plus it SOUNDS like you can deactivate then reactivate on new computers, though that's probably no help if yours dies unexpectedly. If it's really permanently tied down, well, yeah it was kinda bullshit before but now it's complete bullshit.

 

[Anticitizen One]

If the locking a game to one system rumor is true (which I doubt) then Microsoft is being pennywise and pound foolish. All that effort just to stop a small group of pirates and increase profit margins slightly?

 

[FordGTGuy]

if they're stupid enough to do that then who even knows anymore.

If pushing people to a subscription service that will end up making Microsoft more money in the long run and gives people 4 licenses that can be activated and deactivated at any time is stupid than I don't want to be smart.

It might be evil to treat the retail copy this way but it is certainly not stupid.

 

[Eusis]

If the locking a game to one system rumor is true (which I doubt) then Microsoft is being pennywise and pound foolish. All that effort just to stop a small group of pirates and increase profit margins slightly?

Well, it is extrapolating from Microsoft's very expensive business software, which isn't a fair comparison with console games I'd think. But if they seriously do try to apply the same logic they have for $200+ software to consoles, then they actually NEED to fail just as an example to everyone else on what NOT to do. I really don't think they'd do it though, at worst it'd be always online and you must be logged into your account to play games, like a slightly more anal Steam.

If pushing people to a subscription service that will end up making Microsoft more money in the long run and gives people 4 licenses that can be activated and deactivated at any time is stupid than I don't want to be smart.

It might be evil to treat the retail copy this way but it is certainly not stupid.

Which makes me wonder if the real problem is from the XBOX side: Live's been bringing in big bucks, so Microsoft probably feels they can attempt similar with Office. And it might well work, it's certainly a better value than Live I have to admit even if I'd still rather use OpenOffice unless it isn't relevant for my scenario.

 

[Linkified]

New MS office licensing restrictions, plus Windows 8 App Store points in that direction IMO. Just a question of whether they think they can pull it off without damaging their business too much

Wasn't that basically to drive the Office365 subs, poorly, but still to drive them.

In an office environment it makes more sense to do that, in a console environment nope especially when users actively chose not to connect to the internet.

 

[Eusis]

I actually wonder if businesses would subsidize that for employees anyway. Get each of them a yearly license just so they can easily continue work at home or while traveling.

 

[QaaQer]

yup, it looks like they are killing retail Office software. http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX43714

Microsoft® Office 2013 Product Key Cards include a Product Key to activate Office 2013 software on one PC. Disc not included. Download software¹ or activate image on PC. Customers can order a backup DVD for a fee. The Product Key Card license is not transferable to another PC.
1 license / 1 device / non-transferable
Activates Office SKUs on one PC

 

[Eusis]

They really are stressing non-transferable.

To be honest, the overall mentality there is the real problem I'm suspecting, not strictly tying to one piece of hardware. They want to push people towards the subscription model, and neuter the option to go without, I'm kind of afraid to see just what that or a similar mentality will bring on Xbox.

 

[Psi]

Saw this posted in the OT.

Made me think of some of the Durango rumors.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-retail-versions-office-single-install.shtml

http://www.theage.com.au/technology...13-die-with-your-computer-20130208-2e3a1.html

Wow, MS is in full on hubris mode. I hope they get a reality check in the near future.