Support NeoGAF

[rofif]

Watching people playing Dark Souls in 2011 was magical.
I am rewatching "welcome back tricaster party" giantbomb 2011 video. Ryan plays Dark Souls for first time for over 2 hours and you can see how weird the game was.
Everything that is so obvious nowadays, was unthinkable in 2011. lock-on, rolling, stats, stamina, equipment, everything is not obvious.
But also you can see how different gaming was back then. it was so much more care free and it's just people experiencing this NEW, FRESH experience.

Nobody wanting to show off how he is "git gud" or how they don't use spirit summons because it's cheating.
Gaming and gaming discourse was so much different back then. Social media really destroyed us in last 10 years...

And as for Elden Ring - the game is probably 9 or 10 for me but I partially dislike what it has became. It is a contest of difficulty and "git gud" proving ground that you are indeed A GUD GAMER... That's not what these games were about.
Now, I am also saying that ds1 aged kinda poorly for experienced player. That's why I adore ds2. Because it recaptured the fresh feeling for me. They tried a lot of new ideas and people disliked the game. I think that's why I still like it the most.... and then returned to the formula in ds3 but RAMPED up everything to 11.
That said, DS3 is also incredible and it perfected the combat. It's just a safer game with less new ideas but it's perfected. There is nothing like Midir or Gael in whole Elden Ring.

The video in question is this one. I downloaded it about years ago when I had premium ad giantbomb was not a woke pile of lazy trash.

Welcome Back Tricaster Party! - Part 02

We continue our celebration by taking Ryan down the path of Dark Souls.

www.giantbomb.com

btw. I loved this rant. It is a POSITIVE video despite clickbait title. I highly recommend watching it. The guy loves the game and has the same thoughts as me. He has a perfect way of wording my thoughts

 

[DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy]

Beat the game this morning. Took a little over 150 hours (probably knock like 40 off of that if I don’t count replaying sections in co-op). Did the last stretch of the game with a hard rule of no summons/co-op because summoning against Malenia felt cheap as fuck.


-Maliketh was fun. Had crazy attacks, but with a hard pattern he followed so it was just a matter of good dodging.

-Godfrey was a slobberknocker. It’s like he never stopped attacking and the earthquakes were where you’d have to try and jump him. It’s like damage was unavoidable but chugging flasks and trading hits won the day in the end.

-Radagon was as hard as Malenia to me. He never stops attacking and when he’s lower on health has a goodie back of RNG tricks to ass blast you. I heavily abused Raptor of the mist to create more openings to keep the damage buff from Rotten Winged Sword Insignia going. Not sure how people could do him with just basic dodging without pulling their hair out.

-Elden Beast was kind of medium difficulty. You can run away from most of his weird magic shit and his regular sword swings are pretty easy to dodge. It’s just the weird Ring move and his sword projectiles that made me use Bloodhound step to make sure to avoid. Sometimes there’s too much crap happening on the screen and it’s disorienting. It’s better to try and do Radagon using the least amount of flasks as possible so you can top off if EB nicks you with something.


Not sure how I’d rank it amongst the rest of the games, but I’m starting to understand the people who say the late game bosses were designed around assuming you’ll use summons. The end game bosses are so unrelenting it seems like it’s to brute force through multiple attackers. Not sure how I feel about that design choice. It’s a blessing for newer players but for those who like to solo it just seems unbalanced.

Gonna play it again with a different build and see how I feel after that.

 

[night13x]

Two fingers, but hole

 

[Hayabusabruh]

I'm going to have to agree with the Horizon Forbidden West dev about the quest design. How tf do I even know if I'm progressing anywhere, or if I'm in an area that I should be in? It's sloppy to have to keep running around looking for areas that aren't too hard for you character's level.

 

[V4skunk]

Two fingers, but hole

Don't give up, skeleton.

 

[Aesius]

Started NG+ with Sacred Relic Sword (final boss weapon). The weapon art is hilarious. It has a huge path of destruction, super wide and long, that kills everything in one hit with 50 Faith. Equipping the Sword of Milos in my offhand means that each kill regenerates my FP, so field enemies are essentially harmless with this thing and I don't even have to worry about using flasks.

I think people mostly use this sword/weapon art to farm the Albinaurics at Moghwyn Palace but holy shit, it deserves so much better than that niche use.

 

[Captain Toad]

Gave pvp a chance as an invader. Spent 5 minutes running around looking for the host. When I found him he had two buddies to help him. Of course, I got destroyed.
What's the point? Oh well, back to offline mode.

Instead of finishing my first playthrough, I started another. Samurai dual-wielding uchigatanas. The game feels so much easier. Defeated Margit and Godrick first try.

I've been a huge Souls fan since Demon's PS3 launch. I've never gotten the appeal for PVP in these games. If they left it out completely from here on, it wouldn't bother me at all.

 

[DelireMan7]

Started NG+ with Sacred Relic Sword (final boss weapon). The weapon art is hilarious. It has a huge path of destruction, super wide and long, that kills everything in one hit with 50 Faith. Equipping the Sword of Milos in my offhand means that each kill regenerates my FP, so field enemies are essentially harmless with this thing and I don't even have to worry about using flasks.

I think people mostly use this sword/weapon art to farm the Albinaurics at Moghwyn Palace but holy shit, it deserves so much better than that niche use.

On a new character I made some invasions (at RL40) and one of the cooperator had this weapon... The weapon art one shotted me. The AoE of this thing is ridiculous.

Side note : I have the feeling the cooperators from the hosts I invaded, are always geared up with endgame gear fully upgraded. It's a bit annoying. Usually the host does OK damage to me but the cooperators just one shot me xD

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Beat the game a couple of hours ago.

I loved it overall, despite my many nitpicks with it.


That being said: I’m tired of FromSoftware’s totally lackluster and unsatisfying endings. All that build up and grand scale for what amounts to a wet fart. I don’t care how much of an apologist you are; I’m sure you could agree that some more rewarding endings would be appreciated.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

I'm going to have to agree with the Horizon Forbidden West dev about the quest design. How tf do I even know if I'm progressing anywhere, or if I'm in an area that I should be in? It's sloppy to have to keep running around looking for areas that aren't too hard for you character's level.

It is very annoying and dumb. Your three options are:

1. To “immerse yourself,” in which case have fun with the game taking a billion hours to complete when it’s already very very long.
2. To Google things every 2 minutes.
3. To not care about quests, which will undoubtedly lead to missing out on entire locations, other NPC’s, weapons, spells, etc. etc.


The way the games are designed are: either make this game your priority in your life until you beat it, or constantly Google things.

 

[rofif]

I'm going to have to agree with the Horizon Forbidden West dev about the quest design. How tf do I even know if I'm progressing anywhere, or if I'm in an area that I should be in? It's sloppy to have to keep running around looking for areas that aren't too hard for you character's level.

Quests are obtuse and terrible.
You have no idea where to go and little chance of finding them on your path. You need to search for people and the world is big. You don’t even know people names. Nepheli? Who?!

People say it’s fine but they just googled where to go.
Now there are people markers but it was not there on release and I think you need to find them first?
I find it impossible to do these quests without wiki so f them.
Even darks souls 1, 4 kings was more obvious. I personally would never know to put on random ring and jump into random hole.

 

[22:22:22]

That green looking Village beneath all those geysers and poison frogs. Guess it'll take a massive detour getting there? It looks so inviting lol

 

[DelireMan7]

It is very annoying and dumb. Your three options are:

1. To “immerse yourself,” in which case have fun with the game taking a billion hours to complete when it’s already very very long.
2. To Google things every 2 minutes.
3. To not care about quests, which will undoubtedly lead to missing out on entire locations, other NPC’s, weapons, spells, etc. etc.


The way the games are designed are: either make this game your priority in your life until you beat it, or constantly Google things.

I hear your points and kind of agree. But I like the fact that the game doesn't tell you much and let you explore to discover the world.

In many cases, a careful listening/reading of dialogue or item descriptions can lead you to the next step of a quest. But some are just relying on exploring and luck (I am thinking to the Millicent one in particular) I agree.

Not for everybody but I love this design. The size of the game might be too much for this philosophy but I always felt rewarded by my exploration because there is always something to find. Did the game blind in 190 hours, so yes it takes some times if you want to miss as much as possible without checking on the web.

 

[Classicrockfan]

I wish this games map made it know the parts you havnt been too or cleared .

 

[Methos#1975]

Only took 114 hours, but here we are.

 

[TitanNut88]

After platinuming the game, I restarted Demon's Souls. DS has probably better graphics and faster loading times but, at least to me, the game is almost unplayable compared to Elden Ring. Controls are bad, they feel too old, too irresponsive. I never played the original one so I don't know if they wanted to keep the feeling...

Summary: after Elden Ring, everything else plays bad

 

[DelireMan7]

I never played the original one so I don't know if they wanted to keep the feeling...

Controls of the original and remake are identical. Making the contrast between graphics and gameplay in the remake really weird.
They didn't take any risk by changing the gameplay.

 

[tommib]

After platinuming the game, I restarted Demon's Souls. DS has probably better graphics and faster loading times but, at least to me, the game is almost unplayable compared to Elden Ring. Controls are bad, they feel too old, too irresponsive. I never played the original one so I don't know if they wanted to keep the feeling...

Summary: after Elden Ring, everything else plays bad

I for sure found it super odd to not be able to jump attack on Demon’s Souls after Elden Ring. Funny how these very simple things completely change the flow of the games.

 

[Sweatlord2000]

Conflicted on running NG+ or just restart the game. Wondering if you go in NG+ with enough Smithing stones etc you'll get bored quick because you basically have nothing to upgrade/ search for?

How is NG+ for you? Do you basically only do it to run through all bosses again?

 

[DelireMan7]

Conflicted on running NG+ or just restart the game. Wondering if you go in NG+ with enough Smithing stones etc you'll get bored quick because you basically have nothing to upgrade/ search for?

How is NG+ for you? Do you basically only do it to run through all bosses again?

This why I did only few NG+ in Souls game.

You could respec and try an entire new build. But as you said, you don't need to look for upgrade material so in few minutes your build will be done. Convenient for some, no interesting for others.

I personally prefer starting new and gradually making my build ("The destination is not important, the travel is"). However, due to the size of the game, reexploring is not as fun as the first time and you can't remember the placement of every talisman/spell/gear... So I end up looking a lot on wiki to quickly find stuff I want this time.

 

[DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy]

I've been a huge Souls fan since Demon's PS3 launch. I've never gotten the appeal for PVP in these games. If they left it out completely from here on, it wouldn't bother me at all.

I like to use the password system to do PVP with friends but invasion PVP has always been annoying.

 

[Sweatlord2000]

This why I did only few NG+ in Souls game.

You could respec and try an entire new build. But as you said, you don't need to look for upgrade material so in few minutes your build will be done. Convenient for some, no interesting for others.

I personally prefer starting new and gradually making my build ("The destination is not important, the travel is"). However, due to the size of the game, reexploring is not as fun as the first time and you can't remember the placement of every talisman/spell/gear... So I end up looking a lot on wiki to quickly find stuff I want this time.

The road is indeed more interesting than the destination. Even with some lore video's I think the story and "my" motivation is weird. But exploring is a lot of fun and gradually increasing the strength of your character is too.

For that reason I do feel just starting a new character is better even though I do notice that I B line the items I need.

 

[Sweatlord2000]

How is the difficulty on NG+?

Example you have a 150lvl character and fully upgraded weapon.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I’m tired of FromSoftware’s totally lackluster and unsatisfying endings. All that build up and grand scale for what amounts to a wet fart. I don’t care how much of an apologist you are; I’m sure you could agree that some more rewarding endings would be appreciated.

Agreed.
4 of ER’s endings are literally ME3 meme stuff - exact same scene with different colors. You’re supposed to chase a specific NPC throughout this whole big world with nothing to work with but a few vague hints, and that‘s the reward? Fuck off.
And yes, the ending matters. If you’ve spent all that time and talent into making 2 CG cutscenes for so many bosses, I’m sure you had the resources to make better endings.

 

[ClosBSAS]

Yeah apart from being obviously evil, he's rude as hell. I'm not googling all the 50 things it probably requires to help this piece of shit.

Well then ur gonna miss out on the raging wolf armor from the trailer which is a great armor....

 

[ClosBSAS]

How is the difficulty on NG+?

Example you have a 150lvl character and fully upgraded weapon.

There is nothing new on Ng+...which sucks ass. Dark souls 2 had Ana amazing Ng+ with new items and shit. Save ur character for DLC then start an Ng+.

 

[kittoo]

I'm going to have to agree with the Horizon Forbidden West dev about the quest design. How tf do I even know if I'm progressing anywhere, or if I'm in an area that I should be in? It's sloppy to have to keep running around looking for areas that aren't too hard for you character's level.

Yeah I get that. Without reading the wiki I don't think I would've completed a single quest. How am I to know where that one single person in the whole wide world even is? Some are even behind invisible walls FFS. I don't know how people even found those without wikis/guides.

 

[SJRB]

Well then ur gonna miss out on the raging wolf armor from the trailer which is a great armor....

How come? You get that armor by doing Volcano Manor quests.

 

[ClosBSAS]

How come? You get that armor by doing Volcano Manor quests.

Yes but u get the special quest from him.

 

[tassletine]

Beat the game a couple of hours ago.

I loved it overall, despite my many nitpicks with it.


That being said: I’m tired of FromSoftware’s totally lackluster and unsatisfying endings. All that build up and grand scale for what amounts to a wet fart. I don’t care how much of an apologist you are; I’m sure you could agree that some more rewarding endings would be appreciated.

I don't like them either, and find that on top of that the game's structure towards the end tends to fray. Lots of empty space, reused enemies and jankyness.

However, I think a bit of this could be intentional -- Miyazaki is a huge fan of HP Lovecraft and his stories usually end the same way. They're deliberately supposed to confuse you and leave you feeling helpless and insignificant.

For example, the End of Elden Ring, which (being the story is about free will) then asks you to chose an ending. All endings are mysterious but ultimately none of those choices really matter. You aren't given a victory but asked to select one in dull manner.

By the end you just don't care -- But again it would be very hard for me to say that making an impossible decision wasn't the entire point -- As the story is filled with characters lusting for power who then misuse it, or that power has unexpected consequences for them.

 

[tassletine]

Yeah I get that. Without reading the wiki I don't think I would've completed a single quest. How am I to know where that one single person in the whole wide world even is? Some are even behind invisible walls FFS. I don't know how people even found those without wikis/guides.

I did the whole thing blind first time, and found a great deal of the quests myself. The point isn't to 'complete' the game though but have new things to discover for NG+.

Having said that, researching item descriptions, paying attention, does prove worthwhile most of the time, so reading those or going to the wiki's amounts to much the same thing.
I think FROM know very well that there are wikis and expect people to use them as Discovery is a major part of how the game works. The game actively wants you to find things out through reading and paying attention. It's a puzzle game of sorts.

 

[DelireMan7]

I did the whole thing blind first time, and found a great deal of the quests myself. The point isn't to 'complete' the game though but have new things to discover for NG+.

Having said that, researching item descriptions, paying attention, does prove worthwhile most of the time, so reading those or going to the wiki's amounts to much the same thing.
I think FROM know very well that there are wikis and expect people to use them as Discovery is a major part of how the game works. The game actively wants you to find things out through reading and paying attention. It's a puzzle game of sorts.

Same for the quest. I find quite a lot in blind. As you said paying attention to dialog and reading item description very often leads you to the next step in some way.

I am pretty sure I saw an interview (about Souls) of Miyazaki explaining that he wanted to create discussion in the community with the vague nature of his games.
So the games are designed to find stuff by discussing with others players and sharing experiences. They are not made for a single player to find everything alone.
This is especially true with Elden Ring due to its size and amount of content

 

[SJRB]

FromSoft eindings are hardly ever satisfying, I feel.

They're usually extremely vague or abstract, ridiculously short and lack any punch or impact, especially considering the monumental and epic journey it took the player to reach that point.


"Oh so you defeated these eldritch gods from the cosmos in this dream? Aaaaaand now you're a slug."

*roll credits*

..wait, what?

 

[22:22:22]

Any tips?

 

[22:22:22]

Smh

 

[22:22:22]

That green looking Village beneath all those geysers and poison frogs. Guess it'll take a massive detour getting there? It looks so inviting lol

Any tips

 

[DelireMan7]

That green looking Village beneath all those geysers and poison frogs. Guess it'll take a massive detour getting there? It looks so inviting lol

Hum. Where are you ? I can't picture what you're talking about xD

 

[22:22:22]

 

[DelireMan7]

I see. Don't remember how I went there sorry xD

Isn't it possible to jump down at some point ?

 

[Toytown Assassin]

How is the difficulty on NG+?

Example you have a 150lvl character and fully upgraded weapon.

It's as easy as fuck up until the last few fights and even those can be easy with a strong build. You can blast through the main path to the final boss in a couple of hours. I was gonna take my blood build to NG+7 which is usually where these games top out but it was so easy I lost interest in it at ng +4.

 

[22:22:22]

I see. Don't remember how I went there sorry xD

Isn't it possible to jump down at some point ?

Tried. Maybe at a particular spot

 

[Toytown Assassin]

there is a canyon that runs there from the erdtree gazing hill site of grace. You pretty much go north.

 

[SJRB]

 

[22:22:22]

I think I tried that. Not enough enough I guess thanks dude!!!

 

[Dragon_Rocks]

Yes but u get the special quest from him.

The request comes from Knight Bernahl and has nothing to do with Dung Eater.

 

[ClosBSAS]

The request comes from Knight Bernahl and has nothing to do with Dung Eater.

Ummm..ya, ur right lol got them confused..

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Agreed.
4 of ER’s endings are literally ME3 meme stuff - exact same scene with different colors. You’re supposed to chase a specific NPC throughout this whole big world with nothing to work with but a few vague hints, and that‘s the reward? Fuck off.
And yes, the ending matters. If you’ve spent all that time and talent into making 2 CG cutscenes for so many bosses, I’m sure you had the resources to make better endings.

CG cutscenes? Shit, I WISH this game had some CG cutscenes (I’m assuming you’re referring to the two CG trailers). Certainly at least the ending(s) and a couple of grand moments deserved a little bit of a budget increase IMO.

And I know the story trailer technically counts as part of the game’s intro but I’m never getting over the actual game’s slideshow intro. And yes, I know it’s similar to Demon’s Souls.

I don't like them either, and find that on top of that the game's structure towards the end tends to fray. Lots of empty space, reused enemies and jankyness.

However, I think a bit of this could be intentional -- Miyazaki is a huge fan of HP Lovecraft and his stories usually end the same way. They're deliberately supposed to confuse you and leave you feeling helpless and insignificant.

For example, the End of Elden Ring, which (being the story is about free will) then asks you to chose an ending. All endings are mysterious but ultimately none of those choices really matter. You aren't given a victory but asked to select one in dull manner.

By the end you just don't care -- But again it would be very hard for me to say that making an impossible decision wasn't the entire point -- As the story is filled with characters lusting for power who then misuse it, or that power has unexpected consequences for them.

Okay but making the player feel confused and helpless doesn’t require short and $5 budget endings.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

I did the whole thing blind first time, and found a great deal of the quests myself. The point isn't to 'complete' the game though but have new things to discover for NG+.

Having said that, researching item descriptions, paying attention, does prove worthwhile most of the time, so reading those or going to the wiki's amounts to much the same thing.
I think FROM know very well that there are wikis and expect people to use them as Discovery is a major part of how the game works. The game actively wants you to find things out through reading and paying attention. It's a puzzle game of sorts.

Okay. May I ask how long your playthrough took?

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

CG cutscenes? Shit, I WISH this game had some CG cutscenes (I’m assuming you’re referring to the two CG trailers).

I’m referring to the scenes that play before and halfway through most boss fights.
You know the gig:
- Enter boss fog
- *cutscene* blah blah dirty Tarnished, boss sprouts extra limbs / takes out impossible weaponry out of some bodily orifice, now die!
- boss gets down to half health
- *cutscene* self- mutilation ensues, more gibberish

Game’s ending:
”And so over the land came an age of green / blue / red. The end.”

 

[Dragon_Rocks]

One thing I didn't get is why was Vyke considered the tarnished closest to become Elden Lord (if thats what it meant by *Item description spoiler* "No other Tarnished was closer to the throne of the Elden Lord than Vyke" and not in terms of distance). What did he achieve to get that hype? None of the of the shard bearers, demi-gods etc. had been slain and we did all the work. So what did he do to be considered like that?