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ESPN Ranks LeBron as the #3 NBA Player All-Time. What say you?

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bionic77

Member
I'm waiting for bionic to show up and argue that Pippen was better than Jordan.
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

A better argument would be Bill Cartwright and Jordan. Both are pretty close in my eyes. On the court and in the showers it was a pretty even matchup.

Any ranking of the all time players is retarded. LeBron is one of the best ever. After that its all subjective bullshit. For me his 2-4 Finals record and the fact that he was never really able to elevate guys like Bosh and Love hurts him to me. But he is undoubtedly one of the best. I do like that they gave Hakeem some props. He carried some straight up garbage to the Finals. And en route I saw him rip off and eat David Robinson's penis live on the NBA on NBC.

Concerning LeBron would put him behind Cedric Ceballos but certainly ahead of bum ass bums like Jordan.
 

Superman0

Member
Did you miss when Hakeem absolutely dismantled him?

#3 for Lebron is ridiculous, in the top 10 is even debatable.

He said prime Shaq (no one stopping Lakers Shaq), and Hakeem dismantled Orlando Shaq who only had three years of NBA experience under his belt. However, he still impressively led his team to the finals.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
ESPN is so full of it releasing the top 5 with Lebron on the day he plays Kobe for the last time. You just know they are going to ask Kobe what he thinks about this. I also agree that if Kobe retired say 3 years ago he would be ranked higher I just don't see how almost every current player says he's the best this generation is not in the top 10.
Recency bias and ESPN bullshit.

It's really that simple TBH.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

A better argument would be Bill Cartwright and Jordan. Both are pretty close in my eyes. On the court and in the showers it was a pretty even matchup.

Any ranking of the all time players is retarded. LeBron is one of the best ever. After that its all subjective bullshit. For me his 2-4 Finals record and the fact that he was never really able to elevate guys like Bosh and Love hurts him to me. But he is undoubtedly one of the best. I do like that they gave Hakeem some props. He carried some straight up garbage to the Finals. And en route I saw him rip off and eat David Robinson's penis live on the NBA on NBC.

Concerning LeBron would put him behind Cedric Ceballos but certainly ahead of bum ass bums like Jordan.
And Pippen didn't win shit without Jordan. What broken fucking logic are you working with?
 
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

A better argument would be Bill Cartwright and Jordan. Both are pretty close in my eyes. On the court and in the showers it was a pretty even matchup.

Any ranking of the all time players is retarded. LeBron is one of the best ever. After that its all subjective bullshit. For me his 2-4 Finals record and the fact that he was never really able to elevate guys like Bosh and Love hurts him to me. But he is undoubtedly one of the best. I do like that they gave Hakeem some props. He carried some straight up garbage to the Finals. And en route I saw him rip off and eat David Robinson's penis live on the NBA on NBC.

Concerning LeBron would put him behind Cedric Ceballos but certainly ahead of bum ass bums like Jordan.
Always a treat. Depart until the next bat signal, oh winged one!
 
The problem with ESPN is that they set the narrative going forward, with their brand power. These fucks were claiming for a decade that it was Kobe, not Tim Duncan who was the greatest player of his generation.
Now they realize what Kobe is like without a monster like Shaq or a selfless player like Gasol or Lamar Odom and they backtrack like bitches. I hate ESPN.
 

LosDaddie

Banned
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

A better argument would be Bill Cartwright and Jordan. Both are pretty close in my eyes. On the court and in the showers it was a pretty even matchup.

Any ranking of the all time players is retarded. LeBron is one of the best ever. After that its all subjective bullshit. For me his 2-4 Finals record and the fact that he was never really able to elevate guys like Bosh and Love hurts him to me. But he is undoubtedly one of the best. I do like that they gave Hakeem some props. He carried some straight up garbage to the Finals. And en route I saw him rip off and eat David Robinson's penis live on the NBA on NBC.

Concerning LeBron would put him behind Cedric Ceballos but certainly ahead of bum ass bums like Jordan.

Thank you
 

bionic77

Member
Cedric was definitely an underrated force of nature. He once scored 50 points. Not in a season, in a SINGLE GAME. By himself. Don't believe me here's video evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiltPWeQXYo

He also once won the dunk contest with his eyes closed.
I used some advanced metrics on the calculator that comes installed with my iMac and apparently Ced could have averaged 50 points a game and dunked from the 3 point line on a regular basis if he went full force with his eyes open.
 

beef3483

Member
Players better than Lebron, off the top of my head:

Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'neal
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

And maybe Steph Curry, when all is said and done. So Lebron is probably top ten, but definately not #3. Now, if he adds a couple more titles, maybe, but not with only two.
 
I haven't watched enough basketball to weigh in really but one thing I don't understand is people using lebrons finals record against him. To me getting to a championship final is still impressive and he was getting teams there that had no real right of being there. It's almost as if he had just let those teams flounder and do poorly people would rate him better.

2 championships and 4 lost finals is better than 2 championships and no other finals to me.

I don't really like lebron I just don't agree with that argument.
 

rambis

Banned
There's really two different arguments.

Rings and banners, acolades etc. Basically accomplishments. Lebron can't be considered top 5 with his record as is. It seems he comes up big about as many times as he absolutely shrinks. Some absolute feats in the playoffs and as many fails as well. And a terrible finals record to boot.

But ability wise, I don't think there's any question. Seriously that finals stat is Oscar-esque. He has the ability to dominate a game like few players can. Its a shame he's already seemingly passed his prime. He has always had different flaws at points in his career but that unstoppable size and athleticism carried him.
 

bionic77

Member
I haven't watched enough basketball to weigh in really but one thing I don't understand is people using lebrons finals record against him. To me getting to a championship final is still impressive and he was getting teams there that had no real right of being there. It's almost as if he had just let those teams flounder and do poorly people would rate him better.

2 championships and 4 lost finals is better than 2 championships and no other finals to me.

I don't really like lebron I just don't agree with that argument.
2-4 doesn't tell the story.

But neither does 5 straight Finals run in a pathetic eastern conference.

The truth is always a little more complicated.

Its never black and white. These lists are themselves stupid and ESPN is obviously doing it to spark clicks and the debate that will go on all of their media outlets for the next few days.
 

Two Words

Member
No.

lebron-flop-3.gif



jamesflop_medium.gif



lebron-james-flop-2011.gif



LBJFlop1.gif



Lebron%2BFlop.gif



natetorpedo.gif
leflop_medium.gif
 

this_guy

Member
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

A better argument would be Bill Cartwright and Jordan. Both are pretty close in my eyes. On the court and in the showers it was a pretty even matchup.

Any ranking of the all time players is retarded. LeBron is one of the best ever. After that its all subjective bullshit. For me his 2-4 Finals record and the fact that he was never really able to elevate guys like Bosh and Love hurts him to me. But he is undoubtedly one of the best. I do like that they gave Hakeem some props. He carried some straight up garbage to the Finals. And en route I saw him rip off and eat David Robinson's penis live on the NBA on NBC.

Concerning LeBron would put him behind Cedric Ceballos but certainly ahead of bum ass bums like Jordan.

Toni Kukoc > Pippen.
 

old

Member
He's that or higher. He is worth 60 wins for your team, alone, each year. That's fucking remarkable. He walks on any team in the NBA, they win at least 60 that year.
 
Thats not really much an argument.

MJ never won shit without Pippen. Pippin came within a few seconds of making it to the Finals against the most dominant team of the 2000s. He also carried the Bulls on his back and should have beaten the Knicks by himself but got fucked by the refs.

1. MJ was 4 years into his career when Pippen came onboard, and was on shit rosters before Pippen and Grant developed into dependable 2nd and 3rd options. What the fuck was MJ on his own supposed to do against the Celtics and Bad boy Pistons? The same shit that happened to Lebron against the Warriors in last year's finals: a superior talent losing to a superior *team*.

2.Pippen wasn't the best player on the Portland team when they almost knocked off the Lakers in 2000. He was 34, and past his prime post-back surgery. Pippen at best was the third best player on that team, and that team was probably top to bottom the most talented even if you took Pippen off it.

3. Yes, Pippen did almost carry the Bulls past the knicks, but he didn't. And the reality is, MJ on that team wouldn't have let the series get to a point where it was decided on a bullshit call. The difference between having MJ on that team, and not, is the difference between winning a 4th straight title, and 'they would have won IF'.

And debunked.
 

Two Words

Member
He's that or higher. He is worth 60 wins for your team, alone, each year. That's fucking remarkable. He walks on any team in the NBA, they win at least 60 that year.

Uhh, no. 2 of the 4 seasons in Miami, they were sub-60 wins. This is with a team with 2 other future MVP players and in the super soft Eastern Conference. Also, the third season was a lockout year and their win percentage would have put them under 60 wins if it was projected to a full season. So really, he was only 60+ wins on an all-star team once out of four tries in Miami. In Cleveland, he had only 2 60+ win seasons, again in the super soft Eastern Conference. And he only had 53 wins last season with their stacked team, again, in the super soft Eastern Conference.
 

bionic77

Member
He also ran the worst basketball camp in history back in 1995. My friend said he showed up once for 5 mins and told them how to do layups.
Thats a damned lie. I demand that you punch your friend in his ugly face.

Anyone that got 5 minutes with Cedric was able to do reverse windmills.
 

rambis

Banned
Some of these posts are serious with the steph>bron argument, arent they?
Steph has a lot more work to put in his career but he might be the best offensive player I have ever seen. He's like a bigger, shiftier version of Steve Nash with better handles and a better shot. He doesn't really lack anything but size or athleticism compared to other players.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I wish penny hardaway never got hurt. I thought he was on his way to all time greatness when I saw him play in the 90s.

He had pippen's athleticism with Magic's court vision but unlike lebron he had a jumpshot and a killer instinct.
 
Some of that is true, but then I've seen Kobe launch from 30 feet single covered with the defender sagging off him. That constitutes a dumb shot. And MJ faced athletic defenders in his day as well, Michael Cooper, young Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, prime Penny and Hill. Interestingly enough, Ron Artest is on record as saying MJ was the toughest cover he ever faced, and considering Artest came into the league in 99, his experience with MJ would have been the 40 year old Wizards version. That's telling, considering Artest's prime would have coincided with just about every major perimeter talent of the past 15 years. Also bearing in mind that MJ, even as a Wizard, had great individual success and numbers being guarded by the likes of Shawn Marion and Garnett.

Artest has also said the same thing about Brandon Roy. Grain of salt.
But I also didn't contest that some of those shots are bad.

But these guys?

Michael Cooper, Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, prime Penny and Hill

Kobe ate them alive too. And kept feeding.

“The Spurs win because of Tim Duncan, a guy I could never break. I could talk trash to Patrick Ewing, get in David Robinson’s face, get a rise out of Alonzo Mourning, but when I went at Tim he’d look at me like he was bored. Whenever I run into a Tim Duncan fan who will claim Tim Duncan is the GOAT, I won’t disagree with him.” - Shaquille O’Neal

Because that was Kobe's job. He broke them in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2008.
You can see in his body language--Duncan knew that none of his boys could do it, and when he tried, he got dunked on or J in his face.

Now they realize what Kobe is like without a monster like Shaq or a selfless player like Gasol or Lamar Odom and they backtrack like bitches. I hate ESPN.

Almost fell for it.
 

x-Lundz-x

Member
If we are going to have an official list then someone should not even be a part of it until they are retired. And if lebron were to retire today he wouldn't even be in my top ten.
 
He isn't better than Kobe in his prime. He's a better team player and is just generally better at creating opportunities for his team, but he isn't better than Kobe prime.
 
And Pippen didn't win shit without Jordan. What broken fucking logic are you working with?

His logic is Magic Johnson is the greatest and any one with the same initial is shit =)

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Bron
Bird
Wilt ( actually the more I think about it the more I want to drop him even lower)
Duncan
Oscar
Kobe
Shaq ( I want to put him lower too but don't think I actually can make a semi decent case for).
Dream (I want to put him higher but it's hard to put a case for him against some of those guys up there even though he's on my personal favorites)
 

Two Words

Member
If we wanna use this "X won with Y person" logic, then I'll put this forward:

Name a player that won an NBA championship with a player at the caliber of Jason Terry as being the second-best player on the team. With that logic, Dirk deserves to be in a top position.
 

Fjordson

Member
If we wanna use this "X won with Y person" logic, then I'll put this forward:

Name a player that won an NBA championship with a player at the caliber of Jason Terry as being the second-best player on the team. With that logic, Dirk deserves to be in a top position.
Dirk definitely a legend. One of my favourite players ever.

And to beat the super team "not 5, not 6, not 7" Miami Heat team? Amazing.
 

random25

Member
Bron's Top 10 when all is said and done. Top 3? I dunno. Personally, my Top 3 would be MJ, Bird, Magic. And then there's still Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq and Kareem to compete for the top spot.
 
If we wanna use this "X won with Y person" logic, then I'll put this forward:

Name a player that won an NBA championship with a player at the caliber of Jason Terry as being the second-best player on the team. With that logic, Dirk deserves to be in a top position.

Pretty sure Tyson Chandler was a defensive beast that year.

Everything isn't offense.

Chauncey Billups won FMVP on a team of defensive spare parts.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Steph has a lot more work to put in his career but he might be the best offensive player I have ever seen. He's like a bigger, shiftier version of Steve Nash with better handles and a better shot. He doesn't really lack anything but size or athleticism compared to other players.

The whole point of the list is that it takes their career in perspective

Lebron dominated for like a decade. Curry might get 3-4 years of being the best in the league
 

Two Words

Member
Pretty sure Tyson Chandler was a defensive beast that year.

Everything isn't offense.

Chauncey Billups won FMVP on a team of defensive parts.

The team was still relatively the same defensively the following year without Tyson Chandler. Tyson Chandler's role is often overblown. He was absolutely a positive to the team, but people forget that the Mavericks went from having Erik Dampier as their center to Tyson Chandler. Erik Dampier was a huge negative to the team, so the delta between Erik Dampier and Tyson Chandler makes it seem like Tyson Chandler was some all-star player. He wasn't. He was a role player. Jason Terry was without a doubt the second most important player on that team. Brendan Haywood was a far better sub-in for anchoring the defense compared to the next person to play the 2-man game with Dirk on offense.

Rasheed Wallace is a better player than Jason Terry and Ben Wallace was a better defensive player than Tyson Chandler.
 

this_guy

Member
If we wanna use this "X won with Y person" logic, then I'll put this forward:

Name a player that won an NBA championship with a player at the caliber of Jason Terry as being the second-best player on the team. With that logic, Dirk deserves to be in a top position.

Dream's first championship had Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry as starters.
 
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