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[Deepwater]

you can be muslim in europe, but not too muslim

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Okay? How does telling women what they can and can't wear free anyone?

Niqabs have everything to do with religion. At some point, women are choosing to wear it because of pressures created by either their family, husband, or the people around them.

The Niqab has everything to do with religion. And alot of times, religion tends to view women as objects. The Niqab is another tool of this oppression.

 

[jugo]

I've already mentioned a few reasons ITT. You can easily search my name in the search bar and see my posts on this topic.

I've already mentioned one that I've been directly told; for some they feel a level of personal piety (which for some reason people are completely misunderstanding as indoctrination). There are also other reasons mentioned ITT. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again, if people are genuinely concerned over this and want to find out than they can easily search this thread, mine and other users posts on this topic or Google it rather than repeating myself as nauseum.

Then how come we don't see the same number of men wearing the same thing?

 

[boiled goose]

As a man I am not allowed to walk around naked in public.

How dare society tell me what I can and can't wear!

I might disagree with public nudity laws

Regardless, having rationally enforceable dress codes is one thing.

Targeting specific items and people is not that at all . Many have pointed out "exemptions" for the ban, which show it is irrational, targets a certain group, and is ultimately authoritarian and bigoted.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

This is a completely ridiculous comparison. One is an act of physical violence against another person. The other is if someone can wear a type of clothing.

No, it's not.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Totally fine by me. Has no place in western society. Hijabs are fine.

.

 

[boiled goose]

Then how come we don't see the same number of men wearing the same thing?

The hijab etc are certainly sexist.

I don't disagree there. I disagree with irrational, targeted, bigoted laws.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Then how come we don't see the same number of men wearing the same thing?

Because different people, including other women, achieve personal piety in different ways.

It's not my place to tell them otherwise.

 

[Deepwater]

Niqabs have everything to do with religion. At some point, women are choosing to wear it because of pressures created by either their family, husband, or the people around them.

The Niqab has everything to do with religion. And alot of times, religion tends to view women as objects. The Niqab is another tool of this oppression.

this is like forcing christian women to have sex before they're married because their family oppresses them into chastity.

it's really scary how comfortable everybody is with the state dictating which cultural norms are harmful and which aren't.

 

[Muffin1611]

By taking a stand against religious oppression.

This is naive. Symbolic. It won't help any actually oppressed Muslim women. It will hurt them.

Niqabs have everything to do with religion. At some point, women are choosing to wear it because of pressures created by either their family, husband, or the people around them.

The Niqab has everything to do with religion. And alot of times, religion tends to view women as objects. The Niqab is another tool of this oppression.

And banning it from the public will just move the oppression into their homes.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Posts from people trying to find loopholes in this ban are a fun read. By the way stuff like this is usually not strictly enforced, because the authorities have bigger problems and don't want to create more tensions.

 

[gutter_trash]

And I'm sure further isolating practicioners of said religion will help erasing those flaws.



See above.

it's sucks that kids and women being born into a belief system that they have not willfully chose then get culturally coerced into behaving and dressing a certain way based on the conservative nature of the religion.

France fought for decades to separate the clutches of the Clergy on the Crown and revolting against the monarchy that was subservient to the clergy's dominance.

Many European countries went through the slow transition into secularization.

The problem with religious accommodations in Europe is that they dial back the sacrifices fought to Separate church from State.

Look at Turkey, they went Secular under Ataturk but then Erdogan comes along 100 years later and returns the country into a Theocracy.

Secularism must be protected

 

[Previous]

The best way to liberate people is usually to restrict what they can do.

Because women who wear full face veils aren't already restricted on what they can do?

okay sure

 

[Kthulhu]

As a man I am not allowed to walk around naked in public.

How dare society tell me what I can and can't wear!

The purpose of laws is to set boundaries.

All countries have laws. They may differ but that is why we have many countries and cultures.

The boundaries this law sets are clearly discriminatory in nature.

By taking a stand against religious oppression.

And what about women who want to wear it?

Can you provide evidence of that this law will be successful or help anyone?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I might disagree with public nudity laws

Regardless, having rationally enforceable dress codes is one thing.

Targeting specific items and people is not that at all . Many have pointed out "exemptions" for the ban, which show it is irrational, targets a certain group, and is ultimately authoritarian and bigoted.

Saying a law is bigoted because it has exemptions is dumb.

What group is a law that bans balaclavas in public spaces targeting?

 

[Horp]

So much straw men and fantasy scenarios to come up with reasons why this law is bad in this thread. Also so many people trying to put theoretical short term personal discomfort of some theoretical people above trying to long term stop a tradition that was invented SOLELY to opress women and hurt women all around the world every day. Like, W.T.F. how short sighted and illogical can you be. I hope you dont call yourself feminists.

 

[fantomena]

Totally fine by me. Has no place in western society. Hijabs are fine.

What about hijab in primary/grade school (1st to 7th grade)? Im asking cause the secondary leader in the Norwegian Labour party who actually also is a muslim approves to ban hijab there.

Her name is Hadia Tajik. She's awesome.

 

[jiiikoo]

Saying a law is bigoted because it has exemptions is dumb.

What group is a law that bans balaclavas targeting?

Balaclavians, duh.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

this is like forcing christian women to have sex before they're married because their family oppresses them into chastity.

it's really scary how comfortable everybody is with the state dictating which cultural norms are harmful and which aren't.

This is not the same at all lol.

A better analogy would be a christian family forcing their child to be celibate until marriage.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This is naive. Symbolic. It won't help any actually oppressed Muslim women. It will hurt them.

It is also naive to do nothing and give a signal that we should be OK with this kind of oppression. Will it do anything on its own? Not that much, I agree. It needs to be a combination of efforts, and if these countries also tackle the deeper problems remains to be seen. But I can't be against a ruling that outlaws something I see as sexist and a tool of oppression.

 

[cwmartin]

So much straw men and fantasy scenarios to come up with reasons why this law is bad in this thread. Also so many people trying to put theoretical short term personal discomfort of some theoretical people above trying to long term stop a tradition that was invented SOLELY to opress women and hurt women all around the world every day. Like, W.T.F. how short sighted and illogical can you be. I hope you dont call yourself feminists.

You're right, i'm just glad some men finally stepped up to the plate to tell these women how they feel.

 

[d9b]

It is hard to justify anyone covering their entire face in a free and open society.

How is it a free society if you're not free to cover your face if you choose to do so? 🤔

 

[Usobuko]

Muslim women or Muslims know that the EU isn't on their side and brown lives are generally worth less than a white one.

EU not going to convince them this ban is to liberate them when they know and feel being treated no difference from a tier 2 citizens day in day out from all forms of direct and indirect racism.

They all know deep down this is to placate the white voters.

 

[Muffin1611]

So much straw men and fantasy scenarios to come up with reasons why this law is bad in this thread. Also so many people trying to put theoretical short term personal discomfort of some theoretical people above trying to long term stop a tradition that was invented SOLELY to opress women and hurt women all around the world every day. Like, W.T.F. how short sighted and illogical can you be. I hope you dont call yourself feminists.

Right back at you. When you get the argument thrown at you that women will be forced to stay home, alone in their oppression, just out of the sight of the public, and you just disregard that, I don't know how you can call yourself a feminist at all.

It is also naive to do nothing and give a signal that we should be OK with this kind of oppression. Will it do anything on its own? Not that much, I agree. It needs to be a combination of efforts, and if these countries also tackle the deeper problems remains to be seen. But I can't be against a ruling that outlaws something I see as sexist and a tool of oppression.

Please show me the post where I said that instead nothing should be done. You'll find that I said the complete opposite.

 

[jugo]

Because different people, including other women, achieve personal piety in different ways.

It's not my place to tell them otherwise.

Do you think the fact that it's just women that achieve personal piety in this way is a coincidence? Out of all muslim men, not a single one decided to wear it?

The hijab etc are certainly sexist.

I don't disagree there. I disagree with irrational, targeted, bigoted laws.

So banning something you agree is sexist is bigoted?

 

[Clefargle]

Uh, it's perfectly possible for a law to have unintended consequences, like for example 17-year-old couples sexting each other getting prosecuted for child porn. And depending on what other laws exist there might be limitations on how narrowly you can define a ban without conflicting with anti-discrimination legislation. Many parties all over Europe mulling such laws, I think it's very much in everybodys interest to dig into the exact details here as much as possible.


Uh... no? But before I started using it I often felt like shit for the next day or so, my lungs being full of phlegm and breathing took noticeably more effort, if spending any extended time outside in the cold. So having it on has significantly improved my quality of life.

You didn't respond to my question:

-You wear a mask in the cold

-that's fine

-do you take it off indoors like airports/train cars/ restaurants/ nice weather/ etc?

 

[NewDust]

Because different people, including other women, achieve personal piety in different ways.

It's not my place to tell them otherwise.

Ever wonder how this became a symbol of piety?

 

[Deepwater]

It is also naive to do nothing and give a signal that we should be OK with this kind of oppression. Will it do anything on its own? Not that much, I agree. It needs to be a combination of efforts, and if these countries also tackle the deeper problems remains to be seen. But I can't be against a ruling that outlaws something I see as sexist and a tool of oppression.

and have you stopped to consider that banning things exacerbates the situation rather than solves it?

 

[Skinpop]

And banning it from the public will just move the oppression into their homes.

except you haven't proved this to be the case and I think your logic is flawed here. I find it more likely to mean the opposite will happen out of necessity since for the vast majority sitting home all day isn't practical.

and have you stopped to consider that banning things exacerbates the situation rather than solves it?

that's clearly a false generalization. banning things solves problems all the time, and yes they also complicate and make matters worse all the time.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So much straw men and fantasy scenarios to come up with reasons why this law is bad in this thread. Also so many people trying to put theoretical short term personal discomfort of some theoretical people above trying to long term stop a tradition that was invented SOLELY to opress women and hurt women all around the world every day. Like, W.T.F. how short sighted and illogical can you be. I hope you dont call yourself feminists.

As a feminist, what will you be doing to help the women who feel forced to stay at home because of this law?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Muslim women or Muslims know that the EU isn't on their side and brown lives are generally worth less than a white one.

EU not going to convince them this ban is to liberate them when they know and feel being treated no difference from a tier 2 citizens day in day out from all forms of direct and indirect racism.

They all know deep down this is to placate the white voters.

Damn racist Egypt, Chad and Morocco for taking stances against the burqa also, right?

and have you stopped to consider that banning things exacerbates the situation rather than solves it?

Yes, and I disagree with that opinion. I think long term this is the correct decision, while short term it will hurt some individuals, just like might happen with a lot of laws.

Please show me the post where I said that instead nothing should be done. You'll find that I said the complete opposite.

Then we agree multiple things should be done, and I think this is one of them.

 

[Frost_Ace]

The issue is that it's discriminatory in nature.

I understand that this law may be targeting muslim women in particular and that's shameful, but I do not think the idea to be identifiable all the time for a matter of public order or to promote social interactions to be discriminatory at all.

 

[Horp]

You're right, i'm just glad some men finally stepped up to the plate to tell these women how they feel.

There are MANY women that support this ban. Muslim women too. But thx for responding to my post without responding to anything in my post. I'm also glad you seem to sympathize so well with women that has been opressed systematically for hundreds of years, by MEN

As a feminist, what will you be doing to help the women who feel forced to stay at home because of this law?

Things will be hard for some people for a while, but that can't weigh heavier than we as a society saying that this systematical opression is WRONG. Just like casts in hindu soc. or other fucked up things that are done in religion that is imoral

 

[Subpar Scrub]

this is like forcing christian women to have sex before they're married because their family oppresses them into chastity.

Forcing women to be raped =/= forcing women to show their face in public.

 

[Clefargle]

except you haven't proved this to be the case and I think your logic is flawed here. I find it more likely to mean the opposite will happen out of necessity since for the vast majority sitting home all day isn't practical.

Yeah and it's against the law to forbid anyone from leaving so that's not justifiable. We shouldn't tolerate that as a natural consequence of laws. It needs to be rooted out and people need to feel comfortable reporting this.

 

[Jokab]

And what about women who want to wear it?

If they aren't required to wear it but because they want to, they'll just have to stop wearing a piece of clothing that is banned anyway (i.e. full face masks) apart from the previous religious exceptions. Darn, have to stop wearing my favorite piece of clothing. Special treatment of religion has no place in modern society.

 

[Deepwater]

except you haven't proved this to be the case and I think your logic is flawed here. I find it more likely to mean the opposite will happen out of necessity since for the vast majority sitting home all day isn't practical.

Fuck them. And fuck everyone who's alright with it.

I guess 'Freedom of choice' and "Fight against oppression' has finally come with the asterisk 'so long it's in line with the eurocentric view that the global society should look like us. If they go against our ideal, fuck them and we don't care what happens to them. la la la WE DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN yeah'

I have personal account of being discriminated against and insulted because of my choice to wear the niqab. My mother was imprisoned back in her home country because she chose to wear the hijab, not even the niqab. I know a friend who was beaten up by her father because she chose to wear the niqab, and no one helped her because 'she was the one in the wrong'. Here, in UK. There's a lot of violence against the women in muslim communities because the men dictate how they should dress. If they want them to dress less, they should dress less. If they want them to dress more, they should dress more. And in neither cases should the women have a say in the matter. And guess what the white man (and woman, let's be fair, they're part of the problem too) these muslim men want to appease want?

And now that the court of HUMAN RIGHTS has given the ok to further bully these women, those who wore it because of personal reasons will rather stay at home than be part of the society, and those who were forced to do it will now be told to stay home by their fucktards patriarchs. And before you say why don't they tell the police, no the authorities don't care what these poor women go through. Someone I know went through violent domestic abuse (and she doesn't wear the niqab, by the way) and every single time she went to the authorities she was sent back to her abuser. She escaped to another country when she had four children and couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know whether her abuser followed her. To this day, she suffers from severe mental illnesses.

But you know, they're muslim women. At the end of the day they don't matter, let's make some more rules that work against them.

everyone is just going to skip over wartama's post as if she's not an authority figure on this situation. But everyone else knows what's better for her and people like her. Yup.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Right back at you. When you get the argument thrown at you that women will be forced to stay home, alone in their oppression, just out of the sight of the public, and you just disregard that, I don't know how you can call yourself a feminist at all.

Theres always going to be situations where a woman will be forcefully oppressed within her own home. And that isnt exclusive to niqab wearing religions, either.

The answer however isnt signalling that oppressive religious rules should be allowed free reign, though.

The Niqab, as it is used today, is a religious icon meant to oppress women. And that is not acceptable.

 

[Khaz]

How is it a free society if you're not free to cover your face if you choose to do so? 🤔

How is a society free at all?

 

[RustyNails]

Niqabs have everything to do with religion. At some point, women are choosing to wear it because of pressures created by either their family, husband, or the people around them.

The Niqab has everything to do with religion. And alot of times, religion tends to view women as objects. The Niqab is another tool of this oppression.

What religion are these women from?

 

[Muffin1611]

except you haven't proved this to be the case and I think your logic is flawed here. I find it more likely to mean the opposite will happen out of necessity since for the vast majority sitting home all day isn't practical.


that's clearly a false generalization. banning things solves problems all the time, and yes they also complicate and make matters worse all the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/19/battle-for-the-burqa

This is from 2011. This shit isn't a new argument, the effects are already known.

Then we agree multiple things should be done, and I think this is one of them.

Out of the multiple things that can be done, this is the one that definitely shouldn't be.

 

[Dilly]

How is it a free society if you're not free to cover your face if you choose to do so? 🤔

By that de definition, no society is free.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Do you think the fact that it's just women that achieve personal piety in this way is a coincidence? Out of all muslim men, not a single one decided to wear it?



So banning something you agree is sexist is bigoted?

Nah, like I just said, there are different ways not necessarily clothing -- some other women achieve more piety by not wearing veils by doing their things, same with men. Some men wearing thobes, others don't. This is just one small example. Nothing to do with clothing but if that's what they feel then who am I to tell them to mess up their relationship with god?

 

[Clefargle]

What religion are these women from?

I can see their faces pretty well, what is this supposed to illustrate?

 

[Horp]

Right back at you. When you get the argument thrown at you that women will be forced to stay home, alone in their oppression, just out of the sight of the public, and you just disregard that, I don't know how you can call yourself a feminist at all.



Please show me the post where I said that instead nothing should be done. You'll find that I said the complete opposite.

My post answered -exactly- this point. How can you be so short sighted? You are supporting systematical opression.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

What religion are these women from?

Nice try

Those arent Niqabs

 

[cwmartin]

There are MANY women that support this ban. Muslim women too. But thx for responding to my post without responding to anything in my post. I'm also glad you seem to sympathize so well with women that has been opressed systematically for hundreds of years, by MEN

Things will be hard for some people for a while, but that can't weigh heavier than we as a society saying that this systematical opression is WRONG. Just like casts in hindu soc. or other fucked up things that are done in religion that is imoral

I'm not denying any of the things you stated are not true, because they are. What I'm stating is that it is EXTREMELY short sighted for you to think you can tell or force women to fix it, as a MAN.

I can use caps too, its fucking rad ya doof.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Theres always going to be situations where a woman will be forcefully oppressed within her own home. And that isnt exclusive to niqab wearing religions, either.

The answer however isnt signalling that oppressive religious rules should be allowed free reign, though.

The Niqab, as it is used today, is a religious icon meant to oppress women. And that is not acceptable.

And we should just ban it instead of trying to educate people about it and encouraging women who don't have a choice to feel free enough to remove it while also allowing women who choose to wear it the freedom to do so?

Or is educating and understanding limited to racists and bigots?

 

[AtomicShroom]

Good. I want to see all traces of religion eradicated from the world. Any step that goes in that direction is fine in my book.

 

[Deepwater]

And we should just ban it instead of trying to educate people about it and encouraging women who don't have a choice to feel free enough to remove it while also allowing women who choose to wear it the freedom to do so?

Or is educating and understanding limited to racists and bigots?

no, because if they want to live in the white western world, they have to assimilate into white western standards because that's what's best for them.