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Evolution 2015 - The Fighting Game Tournament of the Year - July 17-19th

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K

Kouichi

Member
For the games I'm familiar with, I'm rooting for:

USFIV - AiAi
UMvC3 - KaneBlueRiver
Melee - PPMD

Though, another side of me really wants to see America win Street Fighter and Japan win Marvel haha
 
R

Revven

Member
J@hranimo said:
Hmm, was this the impression of /r/Smashbros?
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Noooo, the impression I get is from top players like ZeRo or Nairo or Dabuz, etc etc. They've been very outspoken on Twitter about how they feel about customs in the 140 characters they have to type on there lol. And then there's mid level players like Shofu who's completely and totally against customs simply for how "jank" they are.

I'm gonna be interested to see how the conversation unfolds beginning on Monday/Tuesday or whenever the community starts talking about it again.
 
E

EatinOlives

Member
Revven said:
Because the top players feel like customs to a degree skip the neutral game and/or take out a lot of skill for gimmicky strategies that don't exist without customs being on. Without customs on, you don't see Villagers actively trying to timeout for 6 minutes -- they'll at best use the ledge for a few seconds to get some breathing room but then go back on stage because they can't safely stay at the ledge with their default specials.

You have things like Kong Cyclone (which didn't get very far despite how much hate it gets) which is a giant moving hitbox that KOs super early. You have Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash that KOs well below typical KO %s (tbh I don't find this a bad thing but top players do). And then you have DLC characters without any custom moves at all, putting them at an inherent disadvantage.

I imagine there's going to be a lot of debate again once EVO is officially over today and everyone's back home. It already is clear to me, though, many of the players who actually attended EVO and saw matches off-stream were not pleased with customs. Remember, what we all saw on-stream yesterday and Friday was not every match. Results at the low-mid level of players were definitely thrown out of wack due to customs.
Click to expand...

Things should only be banned from tournaments if they're well and truly broken, not if they're "campy", "gimmicky", or just annoying. Phoenix in Marvel is extremely gimmicky and almost universally hated, but she's not broken and thus remains tournament legal at Evo.

FGC tourney players bitch a lot about many things, just because people aren't "pleased" with customs doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, especially if said customs didn't get people very far in the tournament. There's really no point in banning gimmicky customs if they're just annoying instead of broken.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
KidA Seven said:
Infiltration or Momochi are going to win tbh. Tokido always gets top 4, but doesn't win. Nemo is good enough, but is coming from loser's bracket. I don't believe in Americans. Gamerbee can get top 4, but will fall short. Aiai doesn't have the experience on the big stage compared to the rest of the players.


;_;
Click to expand...

what's ;_; for?


I actually like Tokido over Momochi. Most likely the person who wins winners finals in USF4 will win the entire tournament.
 
N

NotLiquid

Member
Revven said:
Because the top players feel like customs to a degree skip the neutral game and/or take out a lot of skill for gimmicky strategies that don't exist without customs being on. Without customs on, you don't see Villagers actively trying to timeout for 6 minutes -- they'll at best use the ledge for a few seconds to get some breathing room but then go back on stage because they can't safely stay at the ledge with their default specials.

You have things like Kong Cyclone (which didn't get very far despite how much hate it gets) which is a giant moving hitbox that KOs super early. You have Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash that KOs well below typical KO %s (tbh I don't find this a bad thing but top players do). And then you have DLC characters without any custom moves at all, putting them at an inherent disadvantage.

I imagine there's going to be a lot of debate again once EVO is officially over today and everyone's back home. It already is clear to me, though, many of the players who actually attended EVO and saw matches off-stream were not pleased with customs. Remember, what we all saw on-stream yesterday and Friday was not every match. Results at the low-mid level of players were definitely thrown out of wack due to customs.
Click to expand...

There was going to be a customs divide no matter how good the results this EVO were, which for the most of the part were completely fine. CaptAwesum was the exception to the rule. StaticManny playing campy isn't because of customs; it's just his play style. Things like Kong Cyclone didn't end up substituting talent, which still saw things like DK actually legitimately edge guarding Sheiks. As far as I'm seeing, the people against customs after EVO are a vocal minority considering Wizard said that Smash 4 was generating a lot of hype with the customs. For all of ESAM railing against the HSB, that hilariously enough ended up becoming his undoing and he very rarely got the chance to capitalize with it in the Top 32 due to how much he used it as a crutch. The fact that ZeRo yet again won a major tournament without even dropping a set this time and not even using them at all speaks a lot to the preparedness he's taken to deal with them.

And frankly, if the low-mid level players can't handle that kind of meta game, they need to step on the ball. Smash 4 is already filled with enough cheese that the customs argument is nothing more than arguing about what the more convenient target is.

Also Shofu can stuff it.
 
R

Revven

Member
EatinOlives said:
Things should only be banned from tournaments if they're well and truly broken, not if they're "campy", "gimmicky", or just annoying. Phoenix in Marvel is extremely gimmicky and almost universally hated, but she's not broken and thus remains tournament legal at Evo.

FGC tourney players bitch a lot about many things, just because people aren't "pleased" with customs doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, especially if said customs didn't get people very far in the tournament. There's really no point in banning gimmicky customs if they're just annoying instead of broken.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that... generally not how it works with Smash games. Stage lists get created with the same logic I'm describing with custom moves. Disruptive vs janky vs lame vs random etc etc It's the same kind of logic.
 
G

Gsnap

Member
Revven said:
Noooo, the impression I get is from top players like ZeRo or Nairo or Dabuz, etc etc. They've been very outspoken on Twitter about how they feel about customs in the 140 characters they have to type on there lol. And then there's mid level players like Shofu who's completely and totally against customs simply for how "jank" they are.

I'm gonna be interested to see how the conversation unfolds beginning on Monday/Tuesday or whenever the community starts talking about it again.
Click to expand...

Didn't Nairo use a custom B for zero suit? And wasnt dabuz one of the most offensive campers in the tournament?

Whatever. Another case of the close-minded smash community, I guess. Can't let the low-tier trash compete on the same level as the 3 S-tier characters.

(Seriously. There's nothing wrong with Pikachu being able to kill at low percents with hsb. I mean, that's zero suits whole MO. Carry them to the top and up b for easy lower percent kills. So Pikachu does it off the sides and its bannable?)
 
T

theprodigy

Member
You guys realize there is nothing remotely close to a unified ruleset for Smash 4, unlike Melee, right? (which itself only had one after like...almost a decade)

2 stocks vs 3 stocks, a bunch of stages legal or not, customs or no customs

and like ESAM said, you don't really need one, and trying to force a single ruleset will not help at all
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Rooting for...

For Ultra, Tokido or AiAi

For Marvel, KBR, Rayray or the Japanese guys

For Smash, Mango

For MKX, Sonicfox or the Internationals

For Xrd, Ogawa or Dogura
 
R

Revven

Member
Gsnap said:
Didn't Nairo use a custom B for zero suit? And wasnt dabuz one of the most offensive campers in the tournament?

Whatever. Another case of the close-minded smash community, I guess. Can't let the low-tier trash compete on the same level as the 3 S-tier characters.

(Seriously. There's nothing wrong with Pikachu being able to kill at low percents with hsb. I mean, that's zero suits whole MO. Carry them to the top and up b for easy lower percent kills. So Pikachu does it off the sides and its bannable?)
Click to expand...

And I totally agree with you, especially on the Pikachu vs ZSS comparison. I suppose the logic on their end is that ZSS was designed that way by default while Pikachu wasn't but still we have the power to change Pikachu being able to do that... by turning customs on. Is it really that bad? I don't think it is, I think it makes things hype (seriously, thunder wave into HSB is clutch as fuck) but people at the top don't seem to want to deal with it so they want customs off lol.
 
T

Tripon

Member
Revven said:
I don't know about that... generally not how it works with Smash games. Stage lists get created with the same logic I'm describing with custom moves. Disruptive vs janky vs lame vs random etc etc It's the same kind of logic.
Click to expand...
Easier to build consensus with stage lists than custom vs. Default.
If a community really is divided, you don't ban, and then claim that is what the majority wants.
 
F

Fraeon

Member
EatinOlives said:
Things should only be banned from tournaments if they're well and truly broken, not if they're "campy", "gimmicky", or just annoying. Phoenix in Marvel is extremely gimmicky and almost universally hated, but she's not broken and thus remains tournament legal at Evo.

FGC tourney players bitch a lot about many things, just because people aren't "pleased" with customs doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, especially if said customs didn't get people very far in the tournament. There's really no point in banning gimmicky customs if they're just annoying instead of broken.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel. If it's a gimmick that annoys but isn't exactly overpowered and you can account for it, then there's really no reason to ban it.

Then again, I don't even play or watch Smash 4, but I come from the school that if it's something you can think around, it's probably not broken enough to be banned.
 
E

EatinOlives

Member
Revven said:
I don't know about that... generally not how it works with Smash games. Stage lists get created with the same logic I'm describing with custom moves. Disruptive vs janky vs lame vs random etc etc It's the same kind of logic.
Click to expand...

I do admit trying to eke out a tournament game out of Smash 4 will take some finagling, and I do know there's a lot of divide. There was a wiki (I can't remember which one) that was specifying which stages were tournament banned across all Smash games. Cycling stages, stages with hazards, and stages where you can walk off to your death were "banned", and yet people were picking Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Halberd left and right on Friday. And yet I doubt anyone would pick Wily Castle despite people clearly being OK with some stage weirdness and some hazards.

So the question becomes, there's plenty of gimmicky stages and characters in Smash 4, what gimmicky stuff do we allow and what do we ban? I think they erred on the side of caution here and allowed most things within reason, and maybe they'll clamp down on things in the future, but if we're just going by Evo I don't really see a reason to start banning things. Despite Zero complaining about customs, he still bodied the tournament without losing a single match. Clearly there's no real substitute for skill despite gimmicky shit. If there's a case to be made for banning customs (and there very well might be), at least I don't really see it being made at this year's Evo.
 
T

trixx

Member
Can't say i'm entirely for customs over base, but at the very least it brings more character variety in the mix. Which is great from a viewers perspective. Stage variety is needed, there needs to be a update that allows you to take off hazards or make some of the stages legal
 
F

Fitts

Member
Man, I was really pulling for Clock and Nemo in Marvel. (especially the former) Guess I'm rooting for Frutsy (dat Cap) and KBR.

Still can't believe there's no Justin/Chris/Champ in top 8.

Man Puncher said:
This is the last year Melee beardos are going to stink up the main stage, right?
Click to expand...

Lol

EDIT: No matter what happens, feeling super good that Rico won KI. Well deserved.
 
S

Spirit of Jazz

Banned
Just caught up on the KI finals and they were top notch; I'm really glad to see Rico get his first major win at Evo. I'm also loving the character variety across games this year.
 
C

Cyrano

Member
Syntsui said:
As crazy as it is, there are a lot of people that likes this game and it only got less entrance than USF IV.

I think it's a pretty fun game but a chore to watch anyone play it.
Click to expand...
That's why I'm hoping Smash4 replaces it. Old Smash is boring to watch, new Smash is fun to watch.
 
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