Am I misunderstanding something? The person did answer the question. She's from the United States. Also, the person doesn't want to know her race, they want to know her nationality and just assume she can't be from America.
"Exotic" might not be a compliment towards people
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Am I misunderstanding something? The person did answer the question. She's from the United States. Also, the person doesn't want to know her race, they want to know her nationality and just assume she can't be from America.
I think the fact that strip-teases are sometimes referred to as "exotic dancing" perhaps adds to that connotation.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
I didn't get that impression and I doubt anyone else did either. The person asking is fishing (fumblingly) for the answer to the question "what is your race".
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Only one way to find out!
(i am a terrible person) (but we're close friends now, so i think i'll chance it :x)
I got the impression that zhorkat got.
That was terribly rude. If person doesnt want to disclose, back the fuck off. RAWRRRRRRRRR
When they're asking her if she's from China or Korea, that's not because they want to know what race she is, unless the people she's talking to in Cambodia and Uganda assume Chinese and Korean are races.
They want to know what country she's from and they assume it's not the United States because she's not white.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm a cynic and even I know people aren't that stupid. I don't want to be rude but her blog isn't that insightful.
Well, if you say so. I'm not really prepared to try and prove how stupid people can be.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
I mean I'm not discounting the possibility that she spoke to multiple people who all couldn't understand the idea of second generation immigration, just that it's so unlikely as to be impossible.
It's not a big deal to not use the word "exotic". I personally haven't uttered it out of this context in I don't know a year? More? I agree that it can make a person feel alienated though this depends on the context.
I'm just defending it's use mostly because of the patronizing tone of these "you thought you were being nice but really you're being an ass!
" threads.hendersonhank
Member
Someone somewhere might take this word the wrong way because of their own insecurities, so don't ever use it again.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Someone somewhere on some topic makes an inference that I disagree with so I will blow things out of proportions and post something extreme to mock them out of the position they did not espouse to begin with.
chaobreaker
Member
I can't believe so many here are defending their right to use this one word when there are a shit ton if ways to complement someone that don't require you to use such a loaded term like "exotic". If it's going to slight enough people then why bother using it in the first place? In the off chance that someone might get flattered if you call them that? In that case, why not use some other descriptor?
It's not political correctness gone mad, it's not being an asshole.
It's not political correctness gone mad, it's not being an asshole.
hendersonhank
Member
I'm pretty sure that someone somewhere is going to take offense at any and every descriptor sooner or later. There are plenty who take offense even at "beautiful".
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Is it going to slight enough people? Is it loaded? You're surprised people are defending their right to use words? I like words.
teruterubozu
Member
There's a lot of postcolonial theory and gender studies surrounding this very topic in academic circles - the idea that the West has "fetishized" the East throughout history. It's kind of an old and tired debate in universities dating back to Edward Said's Orientalism (1978), but there are many interesting theories about the obsession with the "exotic." Anne McClintock' s Imperial Leather is the new reference book for "gendered" views of cultures - that we see cultures in terms of masculine or feminine, i.e. superior or inferior, but again it wades into old generalizations.
chaobreaker
Member
That's a ridiculous sentiment to make. I highly doubt anyone have a problem with the thousands of other descriptors that exist and are being created as you read this post.
Do you? Cause it sounds like you only like this one particular word.
Is race an acceptable word for you guys? I'm just asking because it's super offensive to me and to a whole lot of Europeans who learn from a very young age that race is a word only racists would use to categorize humans. Would you stop using it from now on that you know it's considered offensive? Be honest.
Yeah actually I never use the word when speaking French. I was quite surprised people used it in English but after several years I kinda warmed up to it and don't find it too strange anymore. I still don't use it though.
To me exotic has always been a weird word, I just call someone beautiful, or pretty, etc. However, I don't see using the word exotic as a bad thing at all. It simply means that it's something they are not used to seeing in their everyday lives. It's not that they don't belong, it's just that the person isn't used to it. There are no negative connotations to it.
Also, that gif in the beginning really annoyed me "your intentions don't matter" -- fuck you, they do matter. It's part of context.
Also, that gif in the beginning really annoyed me "your intentions don't matter" -- fuck you, they do matter. It's part of context.
PK Strawstorm
Member
Slightly off-topic, but those gifs in the OP remind me why I don't watch "people talking to camera" youtube videos. Let me guess without going to the video: There are millisecond quick cuts? (I just went to the video. I was right.)
I really don't like that presentation style. Whatever the argument, it just comes off in a very "marketing" manner that isn't really offering up the possibility for discourse so much as it is selling an idea and selling the person as a "personality" as opposed to a person. These are all valid tactics and seem to be received well overall, but they turn me off immediately and bias me against the argument irrationally without even thinking. Maybe just a personal thing because I'm over 30, but I do think there is something inherently "off" about this video style.
So given all that, I am fine with the word exotic, just as I am fine with certain groups of people using the n-word. It's all about context. Using even normal, non-controversial words is not something that can be done with perfection off the cuff. I know that I often fail at words when speaking casually/extemporaneously and stumble into using words that I may realize later weren't really the best in terms of even the word's straight-up definition, much less their subtext. Life is not scripted. If you have enough context on a person to know that they are using "exotic" in some kind of demeaning way, then fine, complain about it, TO THEM. Don't try to take that word and all of the nuanced ways that everyone can use it away from the world because you believe it has been misappropriated against you. Has the subtext of "exotic" become so widespread against "exotic-looking people" (as the n-word has against African-Americans) that its subtext is clear when certain people use it? Maybe in the very gentrified circle this woman likely walks with, but I don't think this is an actual issue. If you have a good grip on a person, you can tell when they are using any word demeaningly, just as you can tell that there is no malice/intent when a young child says a "dangerous" word.
In other words, intentions absolutely do matter when you are assessing the way that a person is talking.
I personally would use exotic to describe a number of people who probably look exactly like a "standard" person from their group would expect to look - the exotic just adds that there is something extra on top of that, whether that be heightened beauty in general or some kind of unique identifier.
The use of certain words can point to problems with the person or with society at large, and that is why the n-word is so dangerous, because the climate in which it was created is still all around us. Does this climate exist for the "exotic" population? Is there a widespread social problem for people who "look or act out of the ordinary than from what group of people they are part of"? I am not convinced. If anything, "exotic" is being used for a class of people that is favored in society for being "hot and desirable."
I do not believe that campaigns to restrict the use of words that may have been misused is any kind of solution at all. Let people use words as they do, and then assess the problems from there. Even the n-word. Let whoever wants to use it use it, understand the context in which they are using the word, and then go after the real problem. Has stopping white people from using the n-word solved any problems there? Or has it just hidden the problems under the surface? Attacking words is just going to bury opportunities for real progress beneath an increasingly generic, whitewashed, and very non-exotic world.
I really don't like that presentation style. Whatever the argument, it just comes off in a very "marketing" manner that isn't really offering up the possibility for discourse so much as it is selling an idea and selling the person as a "personality" as opposed to a person. These are all valid tactics and seem to be received well overall, but they turn me off immediately and bias me against the argument irrationally without even thinking. Maybe just a personal thing because I'm over 30, but I do think there is something inherently "off" about this video style.
So given all that, I am fine with the word exotic, just as I am fine with certain groups of people using the n-word. It's all about context. Using even normal, non-controversial words is not something that can be done with perfection off the cuff. I know that I often fail at words when speaking casually/extemporaneously and stumble into using words that I may realize later weren't really the best in terms of even the word's straight-up definition, much less their subtext. Life is not scripted. If you have enough context on a person to know that they are using "exotic" in some kind of demeaning way, then fine, complain about it, TO THEM. Don't try to take that word and all of the nuanced ways that everyone can use it away from the world because you believe it has been misappropriated against you. Has the subtext of "exotic" become so widespread against "exotic-looking people" (as the n-word has against African-Americans) that its subtext is clear when certain people use it? Maybe in the very gentrified circle this woman likely walks with, but I don't think this is an actual issue. If you have a good grip on a person, you can tell when they are using any word demeaningly, just as you can tell that there is no malice/intent when a young child says a "dangerous" word.
In other words, intentions absolutely do matter when you are assessing the way that a person is talking.
I personally would use exotic to describe a number of people who probably look exactly like a "standard" person from their group would expect to look - the exotic just adds that there is something extra on top of that, whether that be heightened beauty in general or some kind of unique identifier.
The use of certain words can point to problems with the person or with society at large, and that is why the n-word is so dangerous, because the climate in which it was created is still all around us. Does this climate exist for the "exotic" population? Is there a widespread social problem for people who "look or act out of the ordinary than from what group of people they are part of"? I am not convinced. If anything, "exotic" is being used for a class of people that is favored in society for being "hot and desirable."
I do not believe that campaigns to restrict the use of words that may have been misused is any kind of solution at all. Let people use words as they do, and then assess the problems from there. Even the n-word. Let whoever wants to use it use it, understand the context in which they are using the word, and then go after the real problem. Has stopping white people from using the n-word solved any problems there? Or has it just hidden the problems under the surface? Attacking words is just going to bury opportunities for real progress beneath an increasingly generic, whitewashed, and very non-exotic world.
Pejo
Member
I really think in this case the intent behind the word makes a huge difference. It doesn't invalidate the fact that some people might get offended by this word, but I think if it's an important issue to that person a simple "I don't like the implications of that word" would do the trick. Not really sure we need a whole movement behind this...
Also, the hypersensitivity these days is really getting out of hand. It's not enough that you just tell a person when they're offending you anymore, everything has to be an internet campaign filled with anger and controversy.
Also, the hypersensitivity these days is really getting out of hand. It's not enough that you just tell a person when they're offending you anymore, everything has to be an internet campaign filled with anger and controversy.
RockTurtle
Member
im non white and have used it even within my own racial sphere. I never meant it to say " you don't belong", it's often used to point out a feature rarely seen, but of immense allure, beauty.
i feel a lot of posters are looking at it from the situation of a white guy saying it to a non-white....again and again and again
PK Strawstorm
Member
Yeah this is pretty much what my rambling mess above says, just much more concise and effective. Agreed!
I think that this thread and some of the various bloggers linked to on this thread are not indicative of the population at-large, so lending credence to the majority opinion here (it's "loaded" or "offensive" and there's an "off chance" you might flatter someone with the word) as being representative of anything is a flawed assumption.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I was thinking back to this, and doesn't this seem like a good reason to keep using the word exotic? Isn't it better to know that someone is attracted to you in part because they see you as different rather than find out a lot later? Isn't it better to tell someone up front that you are in part attracted to them because you perceive in them something outside of your personal norm? Removing the word doesn't remove the thought, it just hides it.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Theres some* problems with being attracted cuz the person is 'different' to what is otherwise normal in a person's local society. Often it makes the person they are attracted to laden with an unspoken burden to espouse that prescribed 'difference' that was sought for. And so some 'exotic' seeming people may actually dislike being reminded that they are 'different' in their local society.
*However, not all will find the word objectionable. And some do like to know that they are different to others, etc.
So, it's not like this thread is a topic for 'rules' ... per se. At least for me. It's more about raising awareness that the word 'exotic' might not be a compliment towards some people.
As a side note, there's a poster above that equates it to the n-word. I disagree. The n-word is definitely loaded and should not be used lightly. 'Exotic' is no where in the same sphere or weight as the n-word. And word (and word choices) do matter. Cuz they reflect on the speaking person.
Do you mean is it OK to ask someone their race? Or do you mean the concept of "race" generally.
If it's the former, yes you can ask someone their race. But you should do it tactfully. Don't do it like this. Say something more like, "What is your ethnicity?" It also helps if you are genuinely interested in culture. So it might be best to mention it after they tell you.
If it's the later, then no I don't like the concept of race. I think it's arbitrary and divisive. I do however like the idea of ethnicity and culture. Notice, above how I even use the word ethnicity over race.
But I don't think people are being hypersensitive about the word exotic. Even if it has other connotations, exotic means "foreign" ultimately. It's not hypersensitive to not want it implied that you're a foreigner.
But the thing is, is that's what "exotic" really means.
So that you don't think I'm cherry picking, here are several dictionary definitions of "exotic"
Dictionary.com said:
thefreedictionary.com said:
OED said:
etymology online said:
Notice that the first definition for all of these is "foreign". In fact, only in one of them is "beauty" even hinted at (OED), and "strange" or "unusual" is the more common second meaning. So maybe you mean it to have this alluring beauty connotation - a colloquialism a lot of people in here seem to share - but the dictionary definition is implicit that "you don't belong" (a reasonable implication when you use a word that means foreign) is closer to the actual meaning.
Language is nuanced and pliable. The secondary meaning of "unique" and "strange" has nothing to do with race. Some people consider "strange" and "unique" to be good things, some would take those words direct at them as complimentary.
Of course you should be tactful when using the word in a conversation with someone who's a different ethnicity to you, but there are times you can use it where race won't even be involved.
And anyway, The dictionary definition is not implicit of "you don't belong". That's not what foreign means, that's not what "unique" or "strange" means.
Unique is not one of the meanings used. More accurately it's "strange" and "unusual".
Furthermore:
OED said:
Mmmm, I think there can be a difference there. Some people could be doing that. I don't like being called exotic, but I don't mind people asking what is my nationality beyond American. I actually think it would be better if white people were asked that too instead of just calling them "white". I'd much rather be called "Eritrean" than "Black". Last week I was visiting my university's campus before I start my first semester there. I asked a girl for directions. She asked me if I was a foreign student, apparently because there was a place I should go if I was, and I didn't mind her asking. I'd much rather her ask and find out the truth than simply assume one way or the other.
I've never heard someone offended by this before personally.
I've used it myself to say that "hey you look/are wearing/ have the features like you are from a different country and culture." It's always been seen as a compliment...
The opposite side of the coin is "you look domestic."
You can't say anything these days! Fetishising sounds like an extreme stretch to me
I've used it myself to say that "hey you look/are wearing/ have the features like you are from a different country and culture." It's always been seen as a compliment...
The opposite side of the coin is "you look domestic."
You can't say anything these days! Fetishising sounds like an extreme stretch to me
PK Strawstorm
Member
Here is the dictionary definition for moot:
1. subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision.
In other words, the exact opposite of how 90% of Americans use the word.
The dictionary does not define the vernacular. It defines words as they were designed to be used, or as they existed or should exist in formal language. Its definitions are not viable ammunition in a debate such as this regarding casual usage of a term.
1. subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision.
In other words, the exact opposite of how 90% of Americans use the word.
The dictionary does not define the vernacular. It defines words as they were designed to be used, or as they existed or should exist in formal language. Its definitions are not viable ammunition in a debate such as this regarding casual usage of a term.
Well, surely this (taken from the Oxford dictionary):
Has connotations of unique?
Also:
"Not belonging" and "you don't belong" have too very different connotations.
One is an objective truth based on geography or not being a part of a specific group ie: "I don't belong to the Hell's Angels", the other (how I feel you're using it) is a statement that tells someone they shouldn't be where they are.
If that's the case then you're twisting it.
Nobody objectively belongs anywhere when it comes to land settlement over thousands of years.
Well, that's great--then what's your definition of exotic? If we're going with the "how it's used argument" couldn't we make exotic interchangeable with every word as the casual use implies intent. Same way Rachel can make dish towels sexy, I can make keyboard offensive. See how that works?
chaobreaker
Member
Perhaps, but I'm going to give that youtuber and those testimonials she read the benefit of the doubt. I won't use the word exotic as descriptor for a human being and I won't get hung up over it either.
If you want to be that pedantic then sure, but surely you can see the difference there?
This is why context and tone and tact and everything else is so important, because language is this nuanced.
PK Strawstorm
Member
Yeah, and that's exactly what I'm saying. The issue is that the argument being presented by the video seemingly assigns a single definition to the word "exotic." There is not a single definition in common use, and especially not one that is generally considered offensive, so considerations regarding the use of the term need to be made on a case-by-case basis. We do not need a social media campaign against the term.
In other words, my definition does not matter, because it should not affect how you respond to whatever other random individual you encounter who uses the term.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Who the hell would say something like this to a stranger anyway? I think black girls are extremely attractive, but just because I may have a fetish of some sort for dark skin does't mean I'm going to tell that to someone. Seems so patently obvious that that would be creepy as hell.
You want to break the ice with a girl, "hey, what're you up to" works 9 times out of 10.
You want to break the ice with a girl, "hey, what're you up to" works 9 times out of 10.
SkeptiMism
Member
Quoting from the first page sorry.
Not true at all. Intentions can often be well meaning, but they can still be nasty or even bigoted. People almost never aren't evil or even just oblivious to nice manners by will.
Why do you attack the woman? Why do you feel the need to attack her?
Your large mouth is exotic. I don't mean it as a compliment.
So you want to cherry pick definitions? The most parsimonious second meaning is "strange or unusual".
Without cherry picking meanings exotic, boiled down, means:
1. foreign
2. strange or unusual
3. a stripper
You make it sound like that's the only way you can use the phrase. I can do that too.
"Constantly having her minority status pointed out by being told she looked 'exotic', Malaythip, even though she was born in America, developed a sense of not belonging."
"After being told she looked exotic for the Nth time, looking in the mirror, Malaythip said to to herself, 'Maybe you don't belong in America."
How am I cherry picking? I'm saying this is one of the definitions, and this definition is not inherently anything to do with race.
Therefore we know the word can be used without issues of race being involved, and it can also be used sensitively to compliment a person.
Earlier in the thread I brought up examples of personally knowing people who would find this word a compliment, some people actually like to be called "unusual" in this way.
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Also, you didn't respond to the difference between "doesn't belong" and "you don't belong". "You don't belong" in the way you were using it is nowhere in any of the definitions, it has nothing to do with the technical definition of the word.
Just because it has potential to be misused or to be offensive doesn't mean it always will be.
Thank you for being sensible.
John Kowalski
Banned
Well then it's nice that the woman in the video makes reference to multiple cases wherein offense was taken to the usage of the word, including listeners of her show who have written to her in support of her opinion with their own experiences.
That way it becomes clear that this is not one person being offended, but instead one person being vocal about something that offends many other persons.
Ok, but what about the countless times the word could be used a a compliment and be taken well?
Instead of saying "we should never call a person exotic", this video should be asking us to be tactful with the language we choose.
The concept of race. Because there is no such thing as different human races. This shit was invented by racists. That whole concept is extremely offensive and I'm not alone being offended by how casually Americans use that term. Still, I don't believe that you guys would stop using it just because I'm offended. Same with the notion that whites can't face racism. That might me true for Americans but it's super offensive to millions of white people in Europe who face racism every day no matter what color their skin is.
People in this thread said that you should stop using words that might offend someone and that's why asked.
edit
Oh and yeah, asking about ethnicity and culture is absolutely ok in my book.
Europeans don't experience racism, they experience fervent nationalism from their neighboring countries that translates into discrimination. We shouldn't pretend that races don't exist socially. That is advocating "color blindness" and "we are only one true race." But that's for another thread.
It's called racism in Europe no matter how you guys call it. Same with your way you categorize and seperate humans in different races. It's probably true for the US but we learn it differently from a very young age. If you do this here you're probably member of a far right group.
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