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[duckroll]

I'll say out of all the anime I've seen in my entire life, the only two movies where I feel the audio-visual experience successfully transcends and becomes the narrative would be the Utena movie and KnK5. It's really sometime which I find extremely rare, because most of the time I don't really like the result of such direction, but when it does hit the right notes for me, it becomes almost perfection.

 

[OceanBlue]

Having actually seen the entire movie, I feel the need to mention that anyone dissing individual scenes of KnK5 is doing the movie an injustice because while individual scenes might seem out of place or weird when viewed on their own, the entire movie itself a visual tour de force which builds upon every scene and every moment, both visually and musically, and flows in such a brilliantly engineered way that it all works.

It is an animation film where the direction trumps over all other aspects of the movie, and everything element of the film is simply an aspect of the overall direction which does not really stand alone. Every scene, every piece of music, every line is simply a part of a narrative puzzle box which unravels part by part as the film unfolds in a dynamic and elegant way which few movies are capable of doing.

KnK5 is my favorite of the seven movies, so it's not like I'm saying it's a bad movie because of a scene with wonky animation. As far as I remember, though, animation-wise it wasn't as strong as some of the shorter ones.

 

[Risette]

I'll say out of all the anime I've seen in my entire life, the only two movies where I feel the audio-visual experience successfully transcends and becomes the narrative would be the Utena movie and KnK5. It's really sometime which I find extremely rare, because most of the time I don't really like the result of such direction, but when it does hit the right notes for me, it becomes almost perfection.

No EoE or FLCL?

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Having actually seen the entire movie, I feel the need to mention that anyone dissing individual scenes of KnK5 is doing the movie an injustice because while individual scenes might seem out of place or weird when viewed on their own, the entire movie itself a visual tour de force which builds upon every scene and every moment, both visually and musically, and flows in such a brilliantly engineered way that it all works.

It is an animation film where the direction trumps over all other aspects of the movie, and everything element of the film is simply an aspect of the overall direction which does not really stand alone. Every scene, every piece of music, every line is simply a part of a narrative puzzle box which unravels part by part as the film unfolds in a dynamic and elegant way which few movies are capable of doing.

I completely agree with duckroll here. Kara no Kyoukai 5 has its flaws, but the overall direction, the way everything fits together, is simply amazing. An incredibly cleverly designed film. And when I say film I mean film; it utilizes avant-garde filmmaking techniques in a way few other anime movies have.

 

[duckroll]

No EoE or FLCL?

I consider EoE to be a big budget climax to the Evangelion TV series. It has a relatively traditional narrative structure. I would count Evangelion trailers as the sort of thing I'm talking about, but the actual series and movies? They're fairly normal.

FLCL is something which definitely tries to accomplish the same thing. I just don't think it was as successful. Some of it didn't really work for me.

KnK5 is my favorite of the seven movies, so it's not like I'm saying it's a bad movie because of a scene with wonky animation. As far as I remember, though, animation-wise it wasn't as strong as some of the shorter ones.

I dunno about wonky, and honestly you might have to watch the others again if you really think they have better animation, because in general the entire series was kinda inconsistent and hit-or-miss when it comes to technical stuff. But to me, when something achieves such a high level of execution, any flaws in terms of the perfection of craftsmanship is completely secondary and borders on irrelevance. It would be like taking a fantastic film, and then making comments about how a certain prop is inconsistent in a few scenes, or how in one scene you can see a wire or boom mic in the background or at a corner, and so on.

 

[Canis lupus]

Gungrave 14

Unbelievable episode.

 

[7Th]

Having actually seen the entire movie, I feel the need to mention that anyone dissing individual scenes of KnK5 is doing the movie an injustice because while individual scenes might seem out of place or weird when viewed on their own, the entire movie itself a visual tour de force which builds upon every scene and every moment, both visually and musically, and flows in such a brilliantly engineered way that it all works.

I watched the entire movie and I agree with Nonoriri in that it is the most decent part of KnK; however, the atrocious CG puppet animation isn't any less atrocious in context. It doesn't work at all and it looks like to pieces of wood clashing while the camera moves around them.

 

[Branduil]

Either way, the concert in Haruhi was rotoscoped so the K-ON concerts are superior by default.

Even this is better than rotoscope.

What's with your Manabi Straight obsession lately?

Anyway rotoscoping is a tool. It can be used quite badly, but in concert scenes it can be very effective, as in Kids on the Slope or Haruhi(is that really rotoscoped? I don't remember reading that before).

 

[firehawk12]

What's with your Manabi Straight obsession lately?

Anyway rotoscoping is a tool. It can be used quite badly, but in concert scenes it can be very effective, as in Kids on the Slope or Haruhi(is that really rotoscoped? I don't remember reading that before).

It's like how American comic book artists think photo-referencing is tracing. Depends on how you treat the integrity of the animation/drawing process I suppose.

 

[Canis lupus]

Brandon Heat is badass as wel as Bunji. Bros for life.

 

[duckroll]

I watched the entire movie and I agree with Nonoriri in that it is the most decent part of KnK; however, the atrocious CG puppet animation isn't any less atrocious in context. It doesn't work at all and it looks like to pieces of wood clashing while the camera moves around them.

Yeah well I'll just agree to disagree with you... just like I do with almost... everything! Lol.

What's with your Manabi Straight obsession lately?

Anyway rotoscoping is a tool. It can be used quite badly, but in concert scenes it can be very effective, as in Kids on the Slope or Haruhi(is that really rotoscoped? I don't remember reading that before).

He's probably preparing himself for the awesome blu-ray box that's coming out!

 

[fertygo]

KnK5 is my favorite of the seven movies, so it's not like I'm saying it's a bad movie because of a scene with wonky animation. As far as I remember, though, animation-wise it wasn't as strong as some of the shorter ones.

Really? I thought the fifth was the one that have the most exciting cut, maybe 3rd was better.. but in general KnK very stingy at animation, just like Fate/Zero.

 

[7Th]

Anyway rotoscoping is a tool. It can be used quite badly, but in concert scenes it can be very effective, as in Kids on the Slope or Haruhi(is that really rotoscoped? I don't remember reading that before).

Yep; the animators traced an actual performance for the instrument performances.

 

[Branduil]

Animating camera rotation would be fucking hard otherwise. The results tend to be less than ideal, tho.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=224WJCAh-pM

Awful.

Man the shot at 8 seconds is like some kind of Matrix parody gone wrong.

 

[7Th]

Yeah well I'll just agree to disagree with you... just like I do with almost... everything! Lol.

There is absolutely nothing that can make that scene work; it's poorly animated due to the obvious limitations of the CG models so it feels stiff and artificial. Not to mention it is just plain ugly. A good work can have shitty elements and you just have to deal with it. Like the atrocious CG space gates in Bebop.

 

[SDBurton]

Suite Precure - 10

Kanade helping the children practice for their recital was sweet. That blondie Ouji loser has got to go though, I don't want him confusing Kanade. >:I

On the plus side his involvement led to

Spoiler

Siren opening up more. More importantly, one of the minions, Bassdrum, has finally had enough of her wavering resolve and stripped her of her position as leader. Now wandering alone with no one to turn to, hopefully we're reaching the turning point where she becomes good and helps the duo in their fight against evil.

 

[duckroll]

There is absolutely nothing that can make that scene work; it's poorly animated due to the obvious limitations of the CG models so it feels stiff and artificial. Not to mention it is just plain ugly. A good work can have shitty elements and you just have to deal with it. Like the atrocious CG space gates in Bebop.

I can deal with good works having shitty elements fine. But first I would have to agree that they are shitty elements. Trying to forcefully convince someone that it is shitty when he doesn't agree isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

[Syrinx]

YuruYuri 14

Kind of a boring episode, imo.

Spoiler

So, the Amusement Club sits around trying to come up with nicknames for it's members. The highlight of this segment was Kyoko's idea for a nickname for Yui: the "ebony queen" (because of her dark hair). I'm not sure if the writers for this show are aware of the western implications of this word, but I found it pretty amusing. Also, why does Akari oppose the name "Akarin"? Does it mean something I don't know?

Then the show cuts to some subplot of the SC trying to catch a snake. Well, before that, there's sexual innuendo between Sakurako and what'shername. Long story short, it sounds like they're having sex. Anyway, they eventually do catch the snake. Then the one who catches it goes to show it to Akari. Why? I really don't know. Well, turns out there's a cockroach flying in the teahouse. Also, I'd much rather have a (non-poisonous) snake around than a cockroach. Sakurako's got this one figured out.

Then it became some PSA about cold prevention, even though the news report they were watching was about a flu epidemic. Also, what was up with that stock photo on the news program with the little girl and the needle? That looked creepy. Not in a sexual way. Just plain creepy. Anyway, apparently you should do air-hula hoops. That looks dirty.

...

After doing this for a few minutes, I can indeed confirm that they are dirty.

Kyoko gets sick, because she tried to rub a towel on herself for an hour. Outdoors. Without a shirt on. That makes sense.

Kinda light on the antics this episode. Mostly just them sitting around talking. Whatever. They'll get 'em next time.

 

[Kazzy]

Suite Precure - 10

Doesn't Eevee evolve into that?

 

[Uchip]

Doesn't Eevee evolve into that?

looks more like a failed transmutation chimera

 

[Risette]

It's like how American comic book artists think photo-referencing is tracing. Depends on how you treat the integrity of the animation/drawing process I suppose.

Animators use motion reference too. Even Shinya Ohira uses motion reference, so I don't think it limits creativity or anything.

 

[OceanBlue]

Really? I thought the fifth was the one that have the most exciting cut, maybe 3rd was better.. but in general KnK very stingy at animation, just like Fate/Zero.

It's been a few years, so I might not remember, but despite how exciting some of the cuts were I feel like the animation wasn't particularly strong compared to 3 and 6. They did a lot more with direction to compensate like camera angles and suggesting motion, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I have to agree that KnK was generally a bit more stingy in animation, but when you release a movie a month I guess you have to be stingy.

 

[SDBurton]

Doesn't Eevee evolve into that?

Holy shit. I can't unsee. :lol

 

[duckroll]

Animators use motion reference too. Even Shinya Ohira uses motion reference, so I don't think it limits creativity or anything.

Photo referencing is fine, but I think what he refers to is how comic artists sometimes take an actual photo for either a background or a character pose, and basically traces over it before adding in details like the character's face and clothing. I would say that it is likely that most artists in any field are at the very least inspired by things they have seen somewhere else, so nothing is particularly "original" in that sense. But tracing is just kinda lazy and looked down upon, which is why rotoscoping is compared to that in the field of animation.

 

[firehawk12]

Photo referencing is fine, but I think what he refers to is how comic artists sometimes take an actual photo for either a background or a character pose, and basically traces over it before adding in details like the character's face and clothing. I would say that it is likely that most artists in any field are at the very least inspired by things they have seen somewhere else, so nothing is particularly "original" in that sense. But tracing is just kinda lazy and looked down upon, which is why rotoscoping is compared to that in the field of animation.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's not just a matter of being inspired by something in real life, it's a matter of using a photo as the basis for the panel background.

 

[Dynedom]

Brandon Heat is badass as wel as Bunji. Bros for life.

Bunji is arguably the best character in the show.

 

[Risette]

Photo referencing is fine, but I think what he refers to is how comic artists sometimes take an actual photo for either a background or a character pose, and basically traces over it before adding in details like the character's face and clothing. I would say that it is likely that most artists in any field are at the very least inspired by things they have seen somewhere else, so nothing is particularly "original" in that sense. But tracing is just kinda lazy and looked down upon, which is why rotoscoping is compared to that in the field of animation.

Then that's not reference, it's just straight up tracing with some modifications.

 

[cajunator]

Photo referencing is fine, but I think what he refers to is how comic artists sometimes take an actual photo for either a background or a character pose, and basically traces over it before adding in details like the character's face and clothing. I would say that it is likely that most artists in any field are at the very least inspired by things they have seen somewhere else, so nothing is particularly "original" in that sense. But tracing is just kinda lazy and looked down upon, which is why rotoscoping is compared to that in the field of animation.

Are you referring to Shinkai stuff?

 

[duckroll]

Then that's not reference, it's just straight up tracing with some modifications.

Yeah I'm just clarifying the position for discussion, before we get hung up on definitions of words again!

 

[Geneijin]

I'm not sure why Horizon disproves anything. The reason that there are far fewer extreme haters of Horizon in English anime fandom is because there are far fewer people hyping it up in the first place. That's what I'm trying to say - the bigger a property is and the more hype/focus it gets, the more extreme people's reactions will tend to be, whether positive or negative.

You were saying the severity of bad reactions to SAO were because of its popularity, and I tried to use a counterexample in Horizon, but you didn't think it was a good example as it was less popular than SAO, so they weren't comparable situations to you. I believe Horizon was a popular anime and in a comparable situation to SAO, but it seems like you were arbitrarily limiting the examples that can be used based on the recently posted sales numbers as a basis for what's real popularity. Then I suppose Persona 4 would be a better example for you specifically than Horizon (whereas, I find them comparable). So changing my example to Persona 4, I would say the reasons for the severely bad reactions to SAO isn't because of popularity, but what I believe to be how less offensive it is than SAO, not the hype.

Apologies if I've misconstrued something but I was responding directly to Metrotab's post about the vitriolic reactions SAO gets. I was merely commenting on the fact that there are so many people bashing the show despite its massive popularity.

Ah, that I did not get. Apologies.

When you brought up Horizon I didn't realise that you were relating it to the earlier sales discussion - hence my reference purely to Western popularity, and my reasoning that Horizon doesn't have so many vocal detractors because far fewer people are watching it.

Horizon doesn't have so many vocal detractors because there's really nothing to complain about beyond the convoluted setting, the heavy exposition, and bad direction.

 

[Branduil]

The worst rotoscoping ever will always be Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings, especially the "rotoscoped" Orcs(AKA actors in dumb costumes filmed through an awful filter).

The rotoscoping in Kids on the Slope is much more acceptable because it's not just traced(they still have to alter the performance artists to look like the characters), and it would be really difficult to animate those scenes otherwise.

 

[firehawk12]

Then that's not reference, it's just straight up tracing with some modifications.

Yep.

Brian Michael Bendis did this with his first book because he couldn't draw. So he not only took pictures of real life locations, he used himself and friends as "actors" so that he didn't need to draw characters either.

That's the extreme example of course, but there are people who use it to varying degrees and there's always been a debate about whether or not it's still drawing at that point.

 

[Risette]

The worst rotoscoping ever will always be Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings, especially the "rotoscoped" Orcs(AKA actors in dumb costumes filmed through an awful filter).

Damn, that looks awful.

That Fleishcher Gulliver's Travels movie had some pretty awful looking rotoscoping too.

 

[Geneijin]

Oshima worked on Sora no Woto? Oshima is a she?! I guess this is what I get for assuming most people who work in the anime industry are male.

The best romanticist composer in anime would not be male.

Spoiler

Sexism

 

[Chet Rippo]

Doesn't Eevee evolve into that?

Go, Umbreon!

 

[Cwarrior]

Brandon Heat is badass as wel as Bunji. Bros for life.

mmmm.. gun-bro-grave, brings back sweet memories, one the best animes I've seen so many beautiful scenes, I like how everyone has such cool names like "bear walken, "brandon heat""Bob Poundmax", "bloody harry"ect.

Still has one of the best and most bro eds out there

It wasn't perfect but wish we could get more serious stuff like gungrave(manime) instead of 200+ otaku fantasie per year.

 

[Master Milk]

Im debating whether to space out my S2 viewing of Endless Eight for maximum fury.

It's honestly just not going to be the same because you already know exactly when it's going to end.

 

[OceanBlue]

The worst rotoscoping ever will always be Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings, especially the "rotoscoped" Orcs(AKA actors in dumb costumes filmed through an awful filter).

Oh my god.

It's honestly just not going to be the same because you already know exactly when it's going to end.

The reactions after the second and third episodes were the best. If I remember correctly, the third episode was when they hit the number of loops the book ended at.

 

[cajunator]

Would it be like NTV buying Madhouse?



Oshima worked on Sora no Woto? Oshima is a she?! I guess this is what I get for assuming most people who work in the anime industry are male.

Evidently so.
She's a talented lady!
Some of the music in SnW was really playful like Gershwin maybe.
Her music is classy and fun.

 

[Branduil]

Damn, that looks awful.

Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was an awful mess. It's part of the reason the trilogy was considered unfilmable before Peter Jackson came along.

More Orc "rotoscoping": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oBvNFMt9Ic
BONUS FOOTAGE: Bakshi's vision of the Balrog

The only decent part of the movie was the score. At least Topcraft's Hobbit had some interesting art.

 

[cajunator]

It's honestly just not going to be the same because you already know exactly when it's going to end.

Nothing is ever the same as watching something live.
If you miss the boat its ruined forever.
I can still enjoy it though

 

[Geneijin]

Im debating whether to space out my S2 viewing of Endless Eight for maximum fury.

Watch an episode every SAOturday.

 

[OceanBlue]

Nothing is ever the same as watching something live.
If you miss the boat its ruined forever.
I can still enjoy it though

Ah. I get what you're saying.

 

[BGBW]

YuruYuri 14

Also, why does Akari oppose the name "Akarin"? Does it mean something I don't know?

Akari

Akari~n

 

[dakkumauji]

Watch an episode every SAOturday.

And it'll be everyway better than SAO! A win-win!

 

[cajunator]

Watch an episode every SAOturday.

I will not degrade the sanctity of my Saturdays with mention of that show.

 

[Canis lupus]

mmmm.. gun-bro-grave, brings back sweet memories, one the best animes I've seen so many beautiful scenes, I like how everyone has such cool names like "bear walken, "brandon heat""Bob Poundmax", "bloody harry"ect.

Still has one of the best and most bro eds out there

It wasn't perfect but wish we could get more serious stuff like gungrave(manime) instead of 200+ otaku fantasie per year.

Definetly, can't believe this is anime. Its really dark and ruthless.

 

[cajunator]

Definetly, can't believe this is anime. Its really dark and ruthless.

What do you mean by you can't believe that is anime?

 

[Geneijin]

What do you mean by you can't believe that is anime?

It's like a "I can't believe it's butter" sensation I bet.

 

[cajunator]

It's like a "I can't believe it's butter" sensation I bet.

That doesn't make any sense.