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[JimmyRustler]

Intersting to see how we are coming full circle in this topic. Back in the PSone days it wasn't really unusual to play a game with a female lead. In fact, my favourtie series RE used to have more female leads then men. I can't even think about one instance I thought about that back then. And now we have threads celebrating many female leads.

Kinda funny when you think about it.

 

[Darknight]

It's five hundred years in the future, and Asians and black people look forced? I don't, uh, I don't get it.

Im talking about our time not in the fictional time period of Halo.

Dont get me wrong guys, Im all for diversity and equality in games. Hope we get more of it and it goes into next year and so on. I sure hope next year its not back to the white male protagonist saves the world stuff.

 

[User 73706]

Please, Enlighten me?

"I'm a white dude. They show off a white dude, and then I play the game.

I'm a white dude. They show off a not white not dude, and then I wonder why I should play the game."

D-did...the opposite of this happen???

gooblygate is a thing.

 

[Karkador]

All we can do is talk and talk and con ourselves into thinking our tweeting and hashtag slacktivism is making a difference. It isn't, it was in the best interest of the competing powers that be to appease the grumblings especially in the current climate where feminism is a hot topic.

"It isn't making a difference", and yet, we see a difference. The E3 presentations this year have shown a very noticeable difference in presenting themselves more evenly for males and females.

But don't get carried away with this notion that all this "slacktivism" is for naught, because it's all just corporate interests. We're posting on a videogame forum about a marketing event. It's been understood all along that this is about marketing, not some intangible altruistic good.

So to say that this is just "cynical pandering to the current trending audience" is like...so what? So is every single thing we talk about on this videogame forum. I thought we were aware of this.

 

[lifa-cobex]

D-did...the opposite of this happen???



I think the poster is saying you lack perspective.

You're a straight white dude, aren't you? Token straight white dudes don't stand out to you because you're a straight white dude. You're not looking at this with any sense of perspective.

Must be because I might be a straight white dude

 

[jmood88]

I think it means they (devs or team or whoever) is placing minorities in their titles to please a group of people.

So last year some of these companies got some flack for not having diversity so now they do. (New AC game came to mind) Its hard to say how genuine this choice was. Did they do it because they wanted or because they were force to? Based on past games/showings, white males were the prominent sex in these games. Still is but I dont know. I kind of agree to a certain extent.

Also when I saw the Halo 5 footage, they had asian chick, white chick, white dude and black guy. I felt like they were trying to please people of more than one race/sex at the same time (kill 2 birds with one stone) or give them some slack on this "diversity" topic. While its a great thing, I think it looks forced. I dont know. Maybe when these types of things are more common, I wont be so unsure about their true motives.

It is so damn annoying that the mere inclusion of other ethnicities is "forced" to you.

I think he means it would be better if game designers were choosing female protagonists for artistic reasons and not because of political pressure.

1. How do you know they added female protagonists simply due to pressure?
2. What difference would it make if they had to be pressured into doing so?
3. Do you consider every fan request that developers acknowledge and put into a game to be bowing to political pressure and ruining their artistic vision?

 

[Satch]

Intersting to see how we are coming full circle in this topic. Back in the PSone days it wasn't really unusual to play a game with a female lead. In fact, my favourtie series RE used to have more female leads then men. I can't even think about one instance I thought about that back then. And now we have threads celebrating many female leads.

Kinda funny when you think about it.

It's like this for TV too. In the 90s I used to see tv shows that starred non-white casts very frequently. And then it stopped and now we're slowly getting back into it.

 

[liliththepale]

To be honest I just never noticed. I just play for whatever the game is about.
I get were you're coming from. It's the norm and ppl think it could do with a change.
But to me its something that doesn't really effect anything.
If a character is designed with a woman in mind so it can be from a woman's pov, cool.
But just slapping a female skin on just for "look were with it too".
I mean sure go for it if that's what they wanna do. But in terms of actually changing things for equality, I don't really see anything actually changing.

Why is designing a character as a woman other for you? How many fantasy heroes, soldiers and space marines were designed with maleness in mind are there? Why does femaleness need a reason where maleness does not?

You're being sexist when you describe femininity as a skin, as if it's something on top of the default, meaning the default is male. The default is not male. If anything, the default should be female since that's what humans start out as.

There's certainly inertia for making characters male, but maleness isn't a default human quality. Default human qualities are things like having all your limbs and being able to see well, et cetera.

 

[Deified Data]

Top of my head i guess Portal. Dunno really.

You were replying to that person about games not including females just for the sake of feminism.
You said why would this be an issue.

It's something that hit the headlines in gaming in a major way in the past year or so.
It might be tempting for creators just to stick a woman in for the sake of keeping ppl happy and supposedly "diverse"

Feminism wasn't a thing talked much about in previous years so I think developers just made shit the way they wanted to make in terms of gender and not pander to the masses of the hot topic.

I think we have different definitions of feminism as it relates to this conversation. You seem to think of it as a nagging insistence that women be used in place of men wherever possible to fill some invisible quota that no one's actually tallying. I think it's when a developer has a desire to create a positive female protagonist and then follows through with it - equal, no special considerations, no muss, no fuss. Feminism isn't this bellowing war cry, it's just a simple desire to see women given the same opportunities as men. It manifests when you treat women like normal human beings instead of something "other".

D-did...the opposite of this happen???

During the height of GG fervor? Of course it did.

 

[Dictator93]

This is like the "Yeah, but you're not a real gamer" narrative, but directed at the women starring in the games rather than the women playing the games

I am just saying most games have poorly written male leads that emphasize "male" traits that I find despicable in the real world. I expect the female leads to be written with such "depth" and not approach topics in a critcal reflective way with any real meaning, much like how the male characters are.

I am not trying to be paternalistic, if that is what you mean.

 

[lifa-cobex]

"I'm a white dude. They show off a white dude, and then I play the game.

I'm a white dude. They show off a not white not dude, and then I wonder why I should play the game."



gooblygate is a thing.

whats my skin color got to do with my perspective in games?

 

[kamorra]

The white dude stereotype is so weird at this point. You just have to point at someone and remind him of his skin color to prove him wrong. Just think about that for a second.

 

[Skateboard P]

Thank you for making this thread OP. It was refreshing to see to say the least.

 

[Riposte]

I don't see a comparison to last year.

 

[Deified Data]

The white dude stereotype is so weird at this point. You just have to point at someone and remind him of his skin color to prove him wrong. Just think about that for a second.

Is that what's happening here?

 

[Dice//]

It is so damn annoying that the mere inclusion of other ethnicities is "forced" to you.

Yeah, like I don't understand how any ethnic persons is supposed to simply "get into a game" then if it seems "too politically correct"

 

[Darknight]

It is so damn annoying that the mere inclusion of other ethnicities is "forced" to you.

Maybe I didnt explain myself better. Im not white nor having a diverse cast "putting me off" from playing said games.

I just hope its an honest push for these things and that it wasnt just to "ease" some of these concerns about non inclusion of diverse playable characters in 2015 etc. Like I hope going forward this is the norm and doest come off as a "checklist" of sorts.

Trust me, cant wait to play as Aloy in Horizon and I am glad the character looks genuine not some sexed up doll. I have no troubles playing as different characters.

 

[Karkador]

I am just saying most games have poorly written male leads that emphasize "male" traits that I find despicable in the real world. I expect the female leads to be written with such "depth" and not approach topics in a critcal reflective way with any real meaning, much like how the male characters are.

I am not trying to be paternalistic, if that is what you mean.

Gotcha. I think it's a call for writing to improve, no matter who the character is. However, if we're going to settle for underdeveloped character storylines in games (which I think is fine if your game is not about story, honestly), there's no specific reason to make the characters only male, only white, only straight, etc. The default is not necessarily justified anymore than the minority options, you know? So to say "a female character needs to be justified by X Y and Z" is like...well, where's the X, Y, and Z justifying the standard dudes in most games?

 

[lifa-cobex]

The white dude stereotype is so weird at this point. You just have to point at someone and remind him of his skin color to prove him wrong. Just think about that for a second.

It's a good point to stop the conversation

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

Some other notable elements:
1.) Lots of expensive AAA games.
2.) They're all dressed in actual clothing.
3.) Most are from story games instead of just MP versus mode options.
4.) Main are many characters or main character options.



To be fair, if we turn the stated age up to 35, that'd also describe most of the guys these days.

These are the two that stood out to me the most. I love female characters and the fact that they are leads in big budget games and are wearing actual clothing is awesome. Now let's get great writing and voice acting and I'll be peachy keen.

 

[User 73706]

Must be because I might be a straight white dude

Are you?

It is so damn annoying that the mere inclusion of other ethnicities is "forced" to you.

Im talking about our time not in the fictional time period of Halo.

Since the beginning of the franchise all the way back in 2001 with the release of the Fall of Reach novel, Halo's unique in that it's been one of the only truly post-racial human societies in gaming specifically derived from being a future outcome of the "real world." I digress, post-racial with regards to the human-exclusive social construct of race as in ethnicity or nationality - there's obviously some racism going on as far as actual intelligent races go - but it's still extremely notable because race has literally never come into play in a disparaging fashion in-game or in the EU. In fact, even breaking down "social construct race" on the flipside with the alien races, I can think of exactly one example where it came into play, and it involved someone postulating a Skirmisher came from a certain nation because his last name was common there. You've fought alongside Marines every color under the sun even dating back to Halo: Combat Evolved, and colonization has resulted in an exponential cultural melting pot across the colonies. I've frequented Halo communities ever since I got into the franchise back in ~2003, and not once have I had someone asking why racism never comes into play, or why characters aren't misogynists.

Enter Noble Team of Halo Reach, whom - prior to H5G - were the most diverse cast of protagonists a Halo game had seen. Nobody cried about their races, genders, or backgrounds. Even following the mostly-white cast of ODST, no casual or hardcore Halo fans I've seen discussing the characters have ever had any reservations about diversity. Was Noble Team just checking boxes?

whats my skin color got to do with my perspective in games?

Your perspective has to do with your perspective in games, which you clearly lack.

Yeah, like I don't understand how any ethnic persons is supposed to simply "get into a game" then if it seems "too politically correct"

They're not, that's the point.

 

[Dice//]

These are the two that stood out to me the most. I love female characters and the fact that they are leads in big budget games and are wearing actual clothing is awesome. Now let's get great writing and voice acting and I'll be peachy keen.

Definitely.
Like DID YOU KNOW?: Women can still be sexy without having the ass and tits take up the screen!

I give developers credit when they take advantage of other ways to make the characters appealing.

 

[Ke0]

Always found it weird that people make try to make legitimate arguments consisting of basically "Any character not a white male needs to be justified as to why they exist in the game world with a well fleshed out back story. But white male characters you can throw a bunch of those in, it's totally fine, they get a pass, they don't need justification".

Like every time someone makes the argument of "forced" or "they need to be justified" I can't help but laugh at how they never apply the same logic to the white male character that litters like 9/10 games.

It really amazes me just how much the inclusion of others drives people up the wall and them upset as if something was taken away from them, they don't know what was taken away from them, but they know something was.

If you ask people to expand on their "logic", they never can.

How exactly would Halo 5 Guardians be better if Locke, Tanaka, and Vale were white male characters?

 

[the black pearl]

I think cobex has gotten some undue flak here. And I think he supports the general goal of making the best possible female characters, and he shouldn't get flak for speaking his mind.

But most male characters are token. Or if not, they're bland and weakly inspired. (although you could argue that male developers have some natural inclination to make characters who resemble themselves, but even if thats true there is some/a lot of sociological variable as well)

 

[Karkador]

Going back to the topic of Hitman, and white guys in games needing no justification - where the hell is the justification for Agent 47 being a bald white guy?

AFAIK, it's supposed to be that he can "look like anyone", since he frequently steals people's outfits and impersonates others....but we're talking about a world-traveling assassin who would stick out in most places of the world.
I don't buy it at all.

 

[User 73706]

(although you could argue that male developers have some natural inclination to make characters who resemble themselves, but even if thats true there is some/a lot of sociological variable as well)

and again, this is a totally fallible point - if people were only capable of writing what they knew, then our gaming landscape would make sense, but given the wealth of fiction titles saturating it, that's clearly not the case.

Going back to the topic of Hitman, and white guys in games needing no justification - where the hell is the justification for Agent 47 being a bald white guy?

AFAIK, it's supposed to be that he can "look like anyone", since he frequently steals people's outfits and impersonates others....but we're talking about a world-traveling assassin who would stick out in most places of the world.

This is actually deconstructed to a degree in Hitman 3, and discussed a fair bit in my old "context-justified hetereonormative characters" thread.

 

[jmood88]

Going back to the topic of Hitman, and white guys in games needing no justification - where the hell is the justification for Agent 47 being a bald white guy?

AFAIK, it's supposed to be that he can "look like anyone", since he frequently steals people's outfits and impersonates others....but we're talking about a world-traveling assassin who would stick out in most places of the world.
I don't buy it at all.

Plus he has a big-ass barcode on the back of his head that is almost never covered up when he changes disguises.

 

[Dictator93]

Gotcha. I think it's a call for writing to improve, no matter who the character is. However, if we're going to settle for underdeveloped character storylines in games (which I think is fine if your game is not about story, honestly), there's no specific reason to make the characters only male, only white, only straight, etc. The default is not necessarily justified anymore than the minority options, you know? So to say "a female character needs to be justified by X Y and Z" is like...well, where's the X, Y, and Z justifying the standard dudes in most games?

I agree with you, especially if most characters are just half-baked anyway (like in all fiction though, there are legitimate reasons to write even about the most white bread of individuals if the work is of good quality). I just do not have high expectations for most VG writing, especially for character writing of individuals from repressed groups.

 

[Dice//]

Why is designing a character as a woman other for you? How many fantasy heroes, soldiers and space marines were designed with maleness in mind are there? Why does femaleness need a reason where maleness does not?

You're being sexist when you describe femininity as a skin, as if it's something on top of the default, meaning the default is male. The default is not male. If anything, the default should be female since that's what humans start out as.

There's certainly inertia for making characters male, but maleness isn't a default human quality. Default human qualities are things like having all your limbs and being able to see well, et cetera.

Always found it weird that people make try to make legitimate arguments consisting of basically "Any character not a white male needs to be justified as to why they exist in the game world with a well fleshed out back story. But white male characters you can throw a bunch of those in, it's totally fine, they get a pass, they don't need justification".

Like every time someone makes the argument of "forced" or "they need to be justified" I can't help but laugh at how they never apply the same logic to the white male character that litters like 9/10 games.

 

[the black pearl]

and again, this is a totally fallible point - if people were only capable of writing what they knew, then our gaming landscape would make sense, but given the wealth of fiction titles saturating it, that's clearly not the case.


.[/url]

EDIT: I misread.

 

[User 73706]

Plus he has a big-ass barcode on the back of his head that is almost never covered up when he changes disguises.

Maybe it's like that one mixed kid and scanning the code gives you the item number for Wonderbread.

 

[the black pearl]

Starting my response over: I'm not saying its one thing, though. I think its a variable. I take your point but its not a clear cut contradiction, when my arguement (which I was just thinking out loud there) is that its a combination of the two.

 

[highrider]

Was really happy to see it. The gravel voiced alpha male is getting monotonous. Particularly the girl in Horizon. Just seemed like a wonderfully realized character.

 

[User 73706]

Starting my response over: I'm not saying its one thing, though. I think its a variable. I take your point but its not a clear cut contradiction, when my arguement (which I was just thinking out loud there) is that its a combination of the two.

I'm not meaning to reject your argument specifically, I know that some developers may very well just try and "write what they know" and retrospectively be able to tell tales of wizards conjuring spells and space battles only to lack any strong sense of diversity, while others are fully aware of their strengths and weaknesses and write stories accordingly. I'm just saying that as majority demographics are "allowed" to write fairly shallow stories featuring protagonists with little thought given to them, minority game developers should be allowed to do the same with characters of color or minority sexual orientation, etc. without being chastised for it even though the reverse is rarely ever criticized for having a bald white space marine character "just because." Basically:

I get where you're coming from. Minorities are just as capable (and, individually, incapable sometimes) and vulnerable and human as majorities, and the "write what they know" argument just needs to be taken with a grain of salt because it basically perpetuates the idea that minorities have to "work harder" to achieve the same goals.

 

[Pegosaurus]

Edit: should have known I'd get beaten xD

this character design is great

 

[jmood88]

Maybe it's like that one mixed kid and scanning the code gives you the item number for Wonderbread.

Lmao what the hell

 

[Toxi]

Samu-Oh wait, the new "Metroid" game doesn't star her. Never mind.

 

[suzu]

I think it means they (devs or team or whoever) is placing minorities in their titles to please a group of people.

So last year some of these companies got some flack for not having diversity so now they do. (New AC game came to mind) Its hard to say how genuine this choice was. Did they do it because they wanted or because they were force to? Based on past games/showings, white males were the prominent sex in these games. Still is but I dont know. I kind of agree to a certain extent.

Also when I saw the Halo 5 footage, they had asian chick, white chick, white dude and black guy. I felt like they were trying to please people of more than one race/sex at the same time (kill 2 birds with one stone) or give them some slack on this "diversity" topic. While its a great thing, I think it looks forced. I dont know. Maybe when these types of things are more common, I wont be so unsure about their true motives.

You think it looks forced because the "default" this whole time has been almost always white guys. Which you kinda even state it yourself.

 

[the black pearl]

I'm not meaning to reject your argument specifically, I know that some developers may very well just try and "write what they know" and retrospectively be able to tell tales of wizards conjuring spells and space battles only to lack any strong sense of diversity, while others are fully aware of their strengths and weaknesses and write stories accordingly. I'm just saying that as majority demographics are "allowed" to write fairly shallow stories featuring protagonists with little thought given to them, minority game developers should be allowed to do the same with characters of color or minority sexual orientation, etc. without being chastised for it even though the reverse is rarely ever criticized for having a bald white space marine character "just because." Basically:

I agree. But I still agree to cobez to some extent that it would the most ideal if those character were more artistic than what he's describing. And I think thats all he was saying . I don't think he ever said "they're not artistic so don't bother". Not 100% sure I read everything, though.

 

[itchyass86]

Eitr

Damn, the Shield Maiden looks so damn badass. I'm gonna play this game simply because of the amount of ass she can legitimately kick.

Also, the subtleties of her steps as she engages and extends her arms to slash at her enemy - it's beautiful to see. You can't actually see her emotions, but you can certainly feel her insurmountable will-power by the way her body carries her through the ebb and flow of combat.

It's impressive for the developers to be able to convey so much about this character by using so little resources. It's an art form that I can really admire.

 

[Kinyou]

What is also note worthy is that the generic goons seem to show more diversity as well. I did spot some female enemies in AC and in the new Deus Ex.

 

[AWizardDidIt]

What is also note worthy is that the generic goons seem to show more diversity as well. I did spot some female enemies in AC and in the new Deus Ex.

This is actually super important. If men and women are going to be represented equally to one another, that should generally apply to enemy mooks as well.

 

[Phediuk]

Certainly one of the best trends that emerged at this E3.

 

[Illucio]

Eh? Of course representation is a facet of feminism in gaming.

I'm not sure what you're saying. All things being equal a female protagonist has every right to be there as a male protagonist, no one's trying to fill a quota.

I'm saying forcibly making an addition of a female character just for the sake of having female characters isn't what people should be doing or thinking when it comes to feminists argument with video games.

There's no female playable characters? That's not sexist, that's just a lack of representation.

And I'm saying lack of representation isn't a bad thing, but I just want to clarify (I think I'm doing a very horrible job at it) that there shouldn't be any sort of quota. We should have female characters in video games because that's what the creators want to do and or because they know there is a demand for it from us the fans rather than the demand is an out cry from feminists crying out misogyny if they don't, because that's not true and it's a misconception most people have.

And my original post was just clarifying feminist intent.

Now to spend the day watching that Horizon gameplay video over again trying to find details I missed on it's awesomeness. :3

 

[GamerJM]

How many did we have at E3 last year? I don't remember there necessarily being a shortage, at least in comparison to this year. Of course we could always have more female characters but I'd like to see a direct comparison from last year vs. this year if this is really an improvement.

 

[Agremont]

I'm sorry but I have to come out of the closet and say that I prefer the mass market sexy ladies of yore. These women are too homely looking to keep me interested. I don't need Ivy from Soul Caliber but definitely something closer to that direction than this.

Homely? Granted stuff like this is subjective to a point but....what?

 

[Dice//]

I'm sorry but I have to come out of the closet and say that I prefer the mass market sexy ladies of yore. These women are too homely looking to keep me interested. I don't need Ivy from Soul Caliber but definitely something closer to that direction than this.

Everything about this post.... is just.... kinda...

I mean, like Agremont said, people have their opinions and subjectivities, but this just sounds... off.

 

[Agremont]

You could play as a female in FO3 and New Vegas.

As well as in FO1, FO2 and Tactics.

 

[jmood88]

I'm saying forcibly making an addition of a female character just for the sake of having female characters isn't what people should be doing or thinking when it comes to feminists argument with video games.

There's no female playable characters? That's not sexist, that's just a lack of representation.

And I'm saying lack of representation isn't a bad thing, but I just want to clarify (I think I'm doing a very horrible job at it) that there shouldn't be any sort of quota. We should have female characters in video games because that's what the creators want to do and or because they know there is a demand for it from us the fans rather than the demand is an out cry from feminists crying out misogyny if they don't, because that's not true and it's a misconception most people have.

And my original post was just clarifying feminist intent.

Now to spend the day watching that Horizon gameplay video over again trying to find details I missed on it's awesomeness. :3

As I and others have asked time and time again: why does any character who isn't a white male need this level of justification? Why do you and others who complain about non-white and non-male characters being "forced" question all the times there's a white male as the protagonist? How do you determine when a character is forced into a game?

 

[Karspankey]

Does Fallout 4 count? Especially since the character is voiced now.