Last I checked on most crimes they let you out eventually
Female inmates sterilized in California prisons without approval
- Thread starter Mumei
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Devolution
Member
Plenty of animals abandon their young but this thread of talk is besides the point. We're talking about sterilizing people and you're justifying it with nothing particularly poignant.
Feel free to go directly to hell.
No. We can remove someone from prison and restore their life with an apology and money to get them started again.
speculawyer
Member
If you are pumping out kids that the rest of society is then forced to pay for then you are taking from the rest of society. If you take like that and get thrown in prison then your ability to continue to take in that way should be stopped.
Otherwise, you are creating an incentive for people to go ahead and be irresponsible.
scar tissue
Banned
Not enough :lol smilies in the world. Your life is more than just the sum of your possessions and your current job.
You have past experiences to build on, and relationships with people you care about. Pretty hard to restore that.
Devolution
Member
People aren't lab rats.
speculawyer
Member
An apology and money don't get those years back.
It is, to his argument.
PorcellainThrill
Member
The specific doctors should lose their license.
Lol at the defense force.
Lol at the defense force.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
As this is pertinent to forced sterilization how?
No, but they can get someone started towards making up lost time. Relationships can be mended, past experiences can still be built upon. Prison time is not a permanent loss.
Forgive and forget. They did their time.
Ecto311
Member
And yet you think that taking their wombs will return your cash for some reason.
Thank you.
My argument is that pumping out as many kids as your body is physically able is not (meaning, should not) be a basic human right.
Usually, if you don´t get the fitting approvals it is against the law, thus illegal.
Yes it is immoral, you do not take advantage of your position, especially as a professional. And it seems that is exactly what happened here. It was not the one woman with 5 kids, there where much more cases. Which shows it was common practice instead of a case by case scenario.
Isn't that the entire point of a society? You distribute the cost amongst a large group of people so the poorest are fed for a penny on the dollar of the richest. We are not islands of libertarian perfection.
Society has more than enough spare money and time to feed every single kid 3 square meals a day on your existing taxes alone. You do this because if you keep everyone healthy, your society as a whole becomes better and stronger.
It's one of the most basic ones. Thankfully, you don't get to make the call on who can mate and who can't.
timetokill
Banned
I didn't want to let this one get by without saying: well played. I laughed.
The number of people that spout this crap seems to be rising. I wonder how long it'll be before some party propose something.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
So you like China's model huh?
If you really gave a shit, you'd realize that simply living in a country where you have access to the level of technology that allows you to spew your bullshit on a computer screen means you have more of an environmental impact on the planet than ten of them little brown babies you're so fucking scared of poor people having, do the world a favor and sterilize your own damn self to remove your self-hating ass form the human gene pool
speculawyer
Member
Nothing particularly poignant? You may not agree but I am justifying it due to people's repeated creation of children dependent on the state and their criminal behavior.
If you think that these people should suffer no repercussions then you are free to adopt their kids so their kids are not dependent on the state. But I somehow doubt people will do this.
Devolution
Member
Reproductive freedom is one of our many basic rights that the government or others should not be allowed to infringe on. It sets a dangerous fucking precedent and ignores the bodily autonomy of citizens to sterilize anyone against their will or with "perks" involved for prisoners. Defense of this, just wow.
Your idea of repercussions is "fixing" people. Like I said, your points aren't particularly poignant, you're trying to justify dehumanizing and disgusting tactics. You're also conveniently ignoring people who haven't committed a crime and the side effects of such an extreme treatment.
soundahfekz
Member
Damn, that's really fucked up man
1. That's not true, these people are in California, not Bangladesh or Nigeria.
2. You seem angry. I already said that I don't ever plan on having kids.
No, because allowing only one child per couple is not enough. China will have a serious problem supporting itself in a few decades when the ratio of non-working to working population increases.
PorcellainThrill
Member
That's a pretty stupid argument
Amibguous Cad
Member
UN projections currently have us topping out at 10 billion on the average track, or 8 billion on the optimistic track. It's worth noting that they keep revising their projections down, too. Fertility plummets when modernity arrives. My guess is that before we die people are going to be more worried about underpopulation or depopulation than overpopulation.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
You don't have to worry. He posted earlier that he's not planning on reproducing. Forced sterilization defense force is pretty disturbing.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
The twisted logic in this tread can be easily translated into arguing that people in developed Western countries should just kill themselves because they consume such a disproportionate amount of resources in comparison to the rest of the world. But it always seems to be the poor and minorities who end up being the ones we argue deserve to be punished for the opulence of Western society, never the rich or white.
Also, if you don't know that the drug war is a race war and that most "criminals" are just brown people who used drugs, you just haven't been paying attention. If we imprisoned white people at even just half the rate we do minorities for drug use, there would be an instant reversal of policies.
Also, if you don't know that the drug war is a race war and that most "criminals" are just brown people who used drugs, you just haven't been paying attention. If we imprisoned white people at even just half the rate we do minorities for drug use, there would be an instant reversal of policies.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
True, but the dead person does not suffer in the process.
Regardless, as others have pointed out, it can hurt the ones that care about the dead person in question, so I apologize for any offense I have caused with my post.
scar tissue
Banned
Not even remotely as disturbing as death penalty or chemical castration defense force.
Devolution
Member
Nothing is better birth control than raising living standards and education yet idiots always defend the sterilization route.
Yeah but you have a much lower chance of ever going to one in another country. When we have 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's prison population, I think I'll take my chances in a different country, even if they "may" have worse prisons. Considering we're already seeing teenagers being charged with "making terrorist threats" because they made a joke on a message board, we've reached beyond the point of "don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about."
see, this guy gets it
Sickboy007
Member
WTF completely uncalled for.
So, "They haven't been pulling their fair share" guys.
Let's say you're employed.
You've worked hard ALL your life, never crossed the law, and have been an exemplary citizen.
Let's also say all your life's work, employed, has been to a cause detrimental to human society at large, and not only worthless, but actively detrimental to the welfare of society. (I'm sure we can draw up nearly as many examples as we want for this).
You've effectively, received money for doing an activity detrimental to the well being of your peers, and by so, not only you haven't pulled your fair share, but you're actively worse than a leech.
Should we, as a society, take away your pension, ask for reparations, and leave you to die and rot, because you haven't "Pulled your own fair share"?
Let's say you're employed.
You've worked hard ALL your life, never crossed the law, and have been an exemplary citizen.
Let's also say all your life's work, employed, has been to a cause detrimental to human society at large, and not only worthless, but actively detrimental to the welfare of society. (I'm sure we can draw up nearly as many examples as we want for this).
You've effectively, received money for doing an activity detrimental to the well being of your peers, and by so, not only you haven't pulled your fair share, but you're actively worse than a leech.
Should we, as a society, take away your pension, ask for reparations, and leave you to die and rot, because you haven't "Pulled your own fair share"?
HELL, NO!
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
This is seriously creeping me the fuck out. Who hijacked your account?
PorcellainThrill
Member
All three are infringing greatly on basic human rights but in this case the defenders are arguing with slight economic interest, which is really going the extra mile of being an asshole.
I'm assuming you meant the 'for' party,
He's always been like that.
speculawyer
Member
No, that is not the point of society. I have no problem with helping people who going through hard times through no fault of their own. But I have no desire to help people who are intentionally making the situation worse. We have massive problems as is, we should not allow criminals to run around and create more mouths that they have shown they won't feed.
There is this lady who created a fund to pay for voluntary sterilization of chronic drug addicts after adopting 4 kids from the same drug addict.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Prevention
I support her program strongly.
http://projectprevention.org/
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
I guess "Female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval" isn't as punchy.
Not that I'm saying pressuring someone into sterilisation isn't awful, but no-one was ever forcefully or unknowingly sterilised.
Not that I'm saying pressuring someone into sterilisation isn't awful, but no-one was ever forcefully or unknowingly sterilised.
pants
Member
Thanks, if that's the case I'm sure there will be investigations and more clear information from both camps will come forth.
I disagree that it was immoral in the referenced case (singular). From the article they do say 150 patients over 4 years though (with the condition for offering the surgery seems to be being/becoming pregnant) this does seem rather excessive and I would be interested to know why multiple (assuming there are multiples here) doctors would go along with it. I'm not convinced this action was bourne from malice and I feel there is still lots of information missing here.
Also this thread is pretty nasty, so apologies if i dont reply again.
You're missing the point where we can put someone into an incarcerated state and remove them from it later if we fuck up. It's not a perfect reversal, but it's still reversal as much as feasible.
You can't reverse removing someone's ability to reproduce. Are you fine with chopping a thief's hands off because you don't want them to be able to grab things to steal after you let them out? Would you cut out the tongue of a spy so they can't say any more secrets after they're released? Would you cut off the legs of someone who hit a building with their car so they couldn't drive one again in trade for letting them out 5 months early?
Just because the body part is on the inside of the woman doesn't make it any less barbaric.
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