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[freenudemacusers]

Better than having a kid at 18, IMO.

It should be available for people who want to be reckless with their reproductive health, which is a lot of people.

How many people who would identify as 'reproductively reckless' would seek out sterilization? Unless you're paying them (which is an even more terrible idea), I don't see it taking off.

Pushing barely-adults into making literally life-long decisions is a bad idea.

 

[timetokill]

I could see offering it. Normally this procedure costs money, and many people in prison are poor and unable to afford the procedure. This might be something that they hadn't really considered before and now the option is available to them. It's a win-win in that case because it means the state and the taxpayers don't have to worry about paying for more children that will almost inevitably fall upon them to care for, and the person gets the procedure for free and is relieved of that burden.

Of course, many of the people in this situation aren't looking to stop having kids, which is another problem of its own.

That said, forcing it is abhorrent and right out.

 

[crozier]

How many people who would identify as 'reproductively reckless' would seek out sterilization? Unless you're paying them (which is an even more terrible idea), I don't see it taking off.

Pushing barely-adults into making literally life-long decisions is a bad idea.

I could see a lot of men jumping at the chance, at the very least. I know a few guys who are in a constant state of panic about knocking up some girl because of stupid decisions made under the influence of this or that. Older than 18, but there were people like that back in high school as well.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

They were coerced by someone from a position of power, when an MD is suggesting contraception we are meant to present all choices and show their pros and cons with no bias or imposing repetitive pressure. It doesn't matter if she caved in the end and signed a paper, its still ethically wrong,

MD's suggest contraception to non-prisoners as well. They discuss the risks and benefits, but that doesn't preclude them from offering a medical opinion.

Maybe an MD didn't gain proper informed consent in a few of these cases, but without the documentation its hard to say who's telling the truth. And thats usually a sign of laziness on the individual MDs part. The only systemic problem evident here is that the MDs failed to obtain state approval. Its not an issue of consent.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I could see a lot of men jumping at the chance, at the very least. I know a few guys who are in a constant state of panic about knocking up some girl because of stupid decisions made under the influence of this or that. Older than 18, but there were people like that back in high school as well.

IIRC you can get it at 18 right now, though I think there is a counseling period. I just think that pushing people into making a decision about it one way or the other will result in a lot of regret down the line. I'd imagine most guys who are fathers could not imagine a future life with a child at 18. I sure didn't.

 

[No Love]

Whoa. That's misandrist, bro.

Why do you hate it? You are condoning their actions, or are you implying there are no female rapists?

I do believe statistically that there is a massively higher rate of male rapists. I personally believe that rapists' punishment should fit the crime.

And it makes me sick that there is the possibility that these women were forced or manipulated into being sterilized. That's just scary.

 

[crozier]

IIRC you can get it at 18 right now, though I think there is a counseling period. I just think that pushing people into making a decision about it one way or the other will result in a lot of regret down the line. I'd imagine most guys who are fathers could not imagine a future life with a child at 18. I sure didn't.

Regret probably depends a lot on whether the pregnancy was planned or unplanned, who it was with, custody situation, child support, etc...

And yeah, I know 18 year olds can already get it. I just think that it should be offered free of charge by the state. And information about reproductive health options would obviously be more comprehensive than "get snipped"

 

[JDSN]

MD's suggest contraception to non-prisoners as well. They discuss the risks and benefits, but that doesn't preclude them from offering a medical opinion.

Maybe an MD didn't gain proper informed consent in a few of these cases, but without the documentation its hard to say who's telling the truth. And thats usually a sign of laziness on the individual MDs part. The only systemic problem evident here is that the MDs failed to obtain state approval. Its not an issue of consent.

Like I said, for me it's not a matter of the law and I admit I might be biased after witnessing what the women described, but this part:


"As soon as he found out that I had five kids, he suggested that I look into getting it done. The closer I got to my due date, the more he talked about it," said Christina Cordero, 34, who spent two years in prison for auto theft. "He made me feel like a bad mother if I didn't do it."

Maybe she is lying, but she is not the first poor woman that I hear saying something similar. Thats coercion.

 

[heliosRAzi]

They were sold on the idea, which is a bit different than pressure which (to me) implies unwanted advances.

Nah, if you look at JSDN's quote, it seems like they were pressured into it

 

[Jimothy]

after all the anti-kid/anti-big family rhetoric on GAF I'm interested to see how this thread plays out.

Personally I'm appalled. That being said I think tubal ligation for ANY woman that WANTS it should be free. But this is just terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

I hate children and never plan on having any, but I find eugenics a disgusting practice. Does not wanting kids make me fascist?

 

[Vilam]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the article, I'm not seeing the problem with this. It doesn't sound like anyone was forced to be sterilized. They had it discussed with them by a doctor, who even strongly suggested / pushed for the procedure to be done, but at no time did they have to consent to it. In fact they didn't even have to say no, they would have to give explicit approval for it to be done.

When my doctor wants me to do things I'm not comfortable with I just say no. These women had the exact same option. Where's the issue?

 

[Delusibeta]

America: not even your bodies are free.

 

[Madness]

I once had a debate on forced sterilization especially in regards to third world countries in a class once. It was interesting. Quite a few points were made that it's basically first world aid that sustains a lot of these starving populations where the birth rate is sky high. And that forced sterilization for a lot of the world's poor would cut down on greenhouse gas emissions, world hunger and resources.

Scary stuff that quite a few educated people agreed with it.

One of the basic rights of humans is the right to reproduce without government assistance or consent. That should never be taken away.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I once had a debate on forced sterilization especially in regards to third world countries in a class once. It was interesting. Quite a few points were made that it's basically first world aid that sustains a lot of these starving populations where the birth rate is sky high. And that forced sterilization for a lot of the world's poor would cut down on greenhouse gas emissions, world hunger and resources.

Scary stuff that quite a few educated people agreed with it.

One of the basic rights of humans is the right to reproduce without government assistance or consent. That should never be taken away.

Pretty sure forced sterilization of the developed countries would have a much more profound effect on cutting greenhouse gases and conserving resources. But then again, I don't think those "educated people" would like their own balls getting cut off very much.

 

[Madness]

Pretty sure forced sterilization of the developed countries would have a much more profound effect on cutting greenhouse gases and conserving resources. But then again, I don't think those "educated people" would like their own balls getting cut off very much.

Oh, I agree. And that was my point. But I bet so many secretly agreed with the other point. Much easier to sterilize people they don't know about in some poor foreign country, than cut back on their life of excess or be smart about resource conservation.

The people who argued for, were in a tough spot, but made some great points. If we talk about survival of the fittest, wanting to cut greenhouse gases and control the world's population, sterilizing a lot of poor people in third world countries where the birth rate is ridiculous could be a good measure.

But it's ultimately so inhumane and draconian. It's another person, a human being, what gives you the right to do anything based on where or what you were born into.

Anecdotally, I know there is quite a few movements I've heard about in India, where they want to curtail the birth rate of low-caste Indians.

I just feel, we need better management of earth resources, better sex education and reproduction information. Providing a lot of people with birth control or condoms is also a good start.

It's scary, yesterday there was a thread on genetically engineered kids or something. What if in the future, reproduction needs government approval? What if China is actually in the forefront when it comes to this with their one child policy?

I still feel the government has no right to stop citizens from reproducing.

 

[subversus]

So funny and sad to see how humans are the same everywhere. Fascism will never die.

 

[ixix]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the article, I'm not seeing the problem with this. It doesn't sound like anyone was forced to be sterilized. They had it discussed with them by a doctor, who even strongly suggested / pushed for the procedure to be done, but at no time did they have to consent to it. In fact they didn't even have to say no, they would have to give explicit approval for it to be done.

When my doctor wants me to do things I'm not comfortable with I just say no. These women had the exact same option. Where's the issue?

California permits state-funded tubal ligations for inmates subject to review by independent medical officials. The purpose of the review is to ensure that there's a record of the procedure on the state level and that consent for the procedure was not granted under duress or without full understanding of what it entails. If the conclusion of the independent review is that the inmate understands what the procedure entails and is willing to undergo a tubal ligation (and possibly that the procedure is medically necessary; the article doesn't specify and a quick spot of googling doesn't tell me whether or not elective sterilization qualifies for state funding in California) then the procedure is approved and the state government of California pays for a tubal ligation.

The fundamental issue is that the doctors at the prison weren't submitting their requests for tubal ligations of inmates for review, and so the sterilizations were effectively being carried out without oversight. This removes a whole layer of accountability from the process, and opens up the possibility that inmates were sterilized without fully understanding the ramifications of the procedure or consented to it under duress. It effectively means that even if they nominally consented to the procedure, there's no guarantee that they did so freely and with a full understanding of what exactly they were consenting to, and therefore their consent was not legitimate.

There's also the fundamental difference in the relationship between an inmate and a prison doctor and that of a free individual and a doctor. A non-incarcerated person is free to go to a different doctor if they feel, for whatever reason, that their doctor does not have their best interests at heart. The same is not true of an incarcerated individual, and this is why many medical procedures performed on prisoners are subject to independent review: there's a greater possibility of coercion and misrepresentation in the doctor-patient relationship when the patient is imprisoned, and independent reviews exist to mitigate the potential harm arising from this.

Add the statements from inmates that they felt pressured by doctors to have the procedure done and the statements from the doctors themselves that echo those used to justify eugenics, and the situation starts looking quite damning.

 

[Log4Girlz]

This can't possibly disproportionately affect any particular groups of people right? I mean, our justice system is totally color blind right?

I can't believe some people are defending forced sterilization.

 

[Kiarushka]

I'm surprised they haven't started the sterilizing with the hostile prison men considering how many rapists/pedophiles there are to lessen future unwanted pregnancies.

I'd prefer to educate people to not have more children than they can handle comfortably but that's sadly far from reality. Be easier to limit it to two per couple.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'm surprised they haven't started the sterilizing with the hostile prison men considering how many rapists/pedophiles there are to lessen future unwanted pregnancies.

I'd prefer to educate people to not have more children than they can handle comfortably but that's sadly far from reality. Be easier to limit it to two per couple.

Child limits just end up with kids being orphaned, and disproportionately female at that.

 

[Dead Man]

Jesus, disgusting.

 

[SapientWolf]

This can't possibly disproportionately affect any particular groups of people right? I mean, our justice system is totally color blind right?

I can't believe some people are defending forced sterilization.

Seems like it's coerced rather than forced. Back in the bad old days they would tie the tubes without consent, or even awareness in a lot of cases.

 

[jimi_dini]

Given how many US prisons are privatised, and how expensive these operations are, it makes me wonder what quota systems are in place to get more incarcerations and more add on bonuses once people are locked up.

There must be serious money in this business, and it makes the argument that some people are treated like livestock all the more likely.

Good point.

I have a hard time deciding if doing it for profit is even worse than doing it because of other fucked up reasons (like for example why the nazis did it).

 

[zoukka]

Child limits just end up with kids being orphaned, and disproportionately female at that.

And you know... being flushed down in toilets.

 

[DBT85]

Damn I thought they stopped this shit years ago.

 

[Monocle]

Better than having a kid at 18, IMO.

It should be available for people who want to be reckless with their reproductive health, which is a lot of people.

Why not give out free contraceptives instead? They're safe, effective, and temporary.

 

[HK-47]

This can't possibly disproportionately affect any particular groups of people right? I mean, our justice system is totally color blind right?

I can't believe some people are defending forced sterilization.

On GAF there is a defense force for everything.

 

[Mario]

The top medical manager at Valley State Prison from 2005 to 2008 characterized the surgeries as an empowerment issue for female inmates, providing them the same options as women on the outside. Daun Martin, a licensed psychologist, also claimed that some pregnant women, particularly those on drugs or who were homeless, would commit crimes so they could return to prison for better health care.

"Do I criticize those women for manipulating the system because they're pregnant? Absolutely not," said Martin, 73. "But I don't think it should happen. And I'd like to find ways to decrease that."

Wonder if he ever considered lobbying for better sex education and health care, especially for lower socio-economic groups.

At a guess, no.

 

[Game-Biz]

Why are people arguing about forced sterilization? That's not what the article is about. If i understand correctly, these procedures not being fully supervised and reviewed by the system was the problem, leading to the possibility that these women were not fully aware of what they were getting into. It seems though that they were aware, but heavily pressured to do so. This doctor gives off the impression of sort of being a sketchy guy, as well.

Now on the other issue...obviously we can all agree that some people would probably be better not to have kids. That doesn't mean anyone can say they must not have kids and they don't have the right to have kids and neither that we can say we know better than they about how they should use their reproductive systems. That's obvious. Like its been said though, sex education is really bad here. Investing a lot of money into this I think would improve this in major ways in the near future, not to be overly optimistic.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Better than having a kid at 18, IMO.

It should be available for people who want to be reckless with their reproductive health, which is a lot of people.

Why not just have it available for everyone instead of targetting a particular group of people?

I believe reproductive rights include the right to never reproduce, and instead of gambling with condoms and other forms of birth control you should be able to make an even safer guarantee of not having children - e.g. cutting & tying up the tubes.

Then feel free to offer them to people in prisons, when they are already being offered to non-criminals at your local practice.

 

[Ashes]

Why not just have it available for everyone instead of targetting a particular group of people?

I believe reproductive rights include the right to never reproduce, and instead of gambling with condoms and other forms of birth control you should be able to make an even safer guarantee of not having children - e.g. cutting & tying up the tubes.

Then feel free to offer them to people in prisons, when they are already being offered to non-criminals at your local practice.

It's like offering gene testing in a region [to know whether it's a boy or girl] where local history has shown cases of female infanticide.

Why propose something like this when we have real reason to believe in possible abuse of such actions?

 

[phosphor112]

I'm not sure if I'm 100% against eugenics, but the problem with this is, where do you draw the line?

Especially without consent (which is how...eugenics kinda works) it's very problematic. It can fix all sorts of fiscal problems but you create more important and greater problems while you're at it.

It's mind boggling to see this sort of thing happen even 20 years ago. It's socially regressive, and what happened to those women is wrong. Plain and simple.

EDIT: Another reason why this doesn't work, especially in this case, is because of how... fucked (for lack of a better world) the prison system is in the US. Especially in these highly populated areas on the west coast.