CommandThrower
Member
The same reason people dislike [insert top tier character seen in every tournament]. Spectators just want to see something else.
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Fighting Game Headquarters |eSports| 4444 Life
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The same reason people dislike [insert top tier character seen in every tournament]. Spectators just want to see something else.
His character design isn't exactly exciting, he isn't exciting to spectate, and they see him a whole lot Say what you want about mishima's but when you play them cool shit happens and they look cool. I kinda say Jack has reached the level of annoyance with a lot of people as well.
I don't think of M.Raven was being played on higher levels, while people would eventually care, people wouldn't care for a while. Because she looks cool and has fucking teleports.
I guess this is the whole other new wave e-sports problem, is that now character designs factors HEAVILY into watchability. That's another bag of worms
lucebuce12
Member
#MakeLarsTopTier
Even when no one is talking about SF, LD finds a way to talk about SF.
Capcom really gotta pay you at this point man
Like Kazumi, people gotta stop acting like he's low-mid tier.
Jack dominates tournaments.
As a new guy that started playing and watching Tekken, I feel like his character personalty and play-style is really dry but he gets the job done. Same with Jack.
Holy Order Sol
Member
this Dragunov character must be dope if he makes viewers eat shit
Exactly. People need to fucking take Jack more seriously and blow him up instead of dismissing him as "low tier" when practically EVERYONE is viable and can dunk on you so fast you didn't know what hit ya.
Fucking gatekeep Jacks FFS.
direct_quote
Member
It's probably because he's top tier. I like his design I think he looks cool, definitely not as cool as Shadow the Hedgehog though..
People didn't hate on Drag when he wasn't a top tier who dominate almost every Tekken tournament though?!
He prolly still is low tier, just the people playing him are strong and most everybody is viable in T7.
I think dragonov looks dope as shit.
But I feel everytime I talk about the dude is, "this dude looks wack, and I see him all the time". Like when heihachi and Kazuya were running through dudes in arcades, folks weren't saying they looked wack. Whether the audience likes the character on screen compounds on stuff I feel. And Ancidotal yes, from what i'm told a lot of folks think he looks boring. I think he looks like a cool as military dude with a scar, and crawls around like a fucking weirdo and I love it. But can you see how some might not be into that?
You didn't see him. Visibility is legit a thing, but I feel like character designs compounds ontop of that. You know who I think looks cool bob, a bunch of people, however hate bob, and associate him with rufus, him being top teir in tekken 6 didn't help
I know you trying to be funny, but this game legit has linkin park satan in it, lets not tryi to play the edgy game here with tekken of all things
What?! No, dude won both T7's first EVO and Tekken's version of CPT, though no one was hating when it was just Nobi rocking him! Visibility was never an issue for Drag, he was never a rare sight at tournaments, hate only really started this year when a lot of people either started maining him or had him as a sub!
I know dudes who had been hating on dragonov since like T5. I like the guy , but I have to admit , he isn't like Muigel or Leo , when they were introduced and people really liked their designs.
Am I saying dragonov is ugly, nah. Am I saying that folks ain't gonna buy tekken because he it in , nah. Am I saying that him being top teir is going to bring viewship down, I doubt that shit highly.
I am saying he's been character who has always had a polarizing design, and that shit compounded on his obsessive use in tournament, and now that more people are watching tekken than they were in quite some time, those complaints are now bubbling to the surface? Yeah
Am I saying dragonov is ugly, nah. Am I saying that folks ain't gonna buy tekken because he it in , nah. Am I saying that him being top teir is going to bring viewship down, I doubt that shit highly.
I am saying he's been character who has always had a polarizing design, and that shit compounded on his obsessive use in tournament, and now that more people are watching tekken than they were in quite some time, those complaints are now bubbling to the surface? Yeah
ZeroTheShadow
Member
His main low d/b+1 is now +3 on hit making it easily the best low in the game. They also made standing 2 his best high poke & anti.SSL move +1 on block.
For those that don't understand, Jack's db+1 is also the fastest low in the game at 12 frames, 14 damage, & only -12 in block. To put into perspective, generic low kick is 12 frames, -2 on hit, 7 damage, -13 on block.
Z
ZelbZelb
Unconfirmed Member
Here's some JoJo ASB:
Jonathan Demonstration and then a set VS DIO (part 3):
http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm31633160
Jonathan: When the game first came out, FGC folks would point beginners to Jonathan as the 'Ryu' of the game. While most of his moves 'look' like Ryu's, they had completely different uses. His 'dragon punch', for example, isn't very good as an anti-air at all. It's used mostly in combo's or to abuse it's super armor to plow through enemy attacks. He's really a pure rushdown character that abuses super armor to run a train over his opponents. Comboing into tackle (6H) will send the opponent flying to the wall, which opens up his really scary wall vortex that can lead to huge side wall combos. Using him as a 'balanced' Ryu type reveals his his weaknesses: mainly he's a big target that has a hard time dealing with jump-ins, and when he's not on the attack, he's pretty clunky and stiff. If you play a clunky character in a game that feels clunky overall to beginners, then you'll have a pretty crappy time when you first try the game.
His zoom punch (6M) is an interesting move in that it has a big start-up, but recovers super quick (0 on block). If it hits, the opponent crumples and you can dash in for a combo.
He has a special move that costs 1 bar (but will drain ALL your meter if you have more) that ensures that you revive when you die with 25% health. After you revive, you can't use meter at all, but all your specials come out as EX moves. With this health bonus, Jonathan has the highest health in the game, with Hermes at 2nd place. Some people decide to start the round with this, but I think it's a bad idea. Largely because you're starting the round with no meter, and Jonathan can't do his big reversals or big combos with out it. So you often see those Jonathan players lose half their health until they gain enough meter so they can fight back.
It's hard to place Jonathan on a tier list because he has holes in his game play (there are parts in block strings where you can parry if they're not done tight enough) and he has a bit of a challenge in neutral, but he does soooo much damage...
Part 3 DIO: He's also a character that tons of people flock to, largely because he's probably the most iconic character in the series. People want to main him, but it turns out you will lose A LOT with this character before you start to get wins. This is due to him being a combo maniac (execution and position experience needed) and being tied for lowest health in the game with only 830 health. On top of this, it takes a lot of practice to figure out how to make use of his Stand-Off moves, which means that once new players get hard knockdown, they loose Stand-On and try to scramble to get The World out (often taking a bunch of damage in the process). It's hard to blame them, as his main gameplan revolves around S-ON. Get S-ON, combo into gut-puch, send them to the wall, and use the The World's giant body and beefy normals to lock them there. He gains an instant overhead into a full combo, while using the back wall to set-up big combos. He becomes a bit of a glass cannon, with the ability mash opponents to paste, while losing if he gets sneezed on.
In S-OFF he can throw knives, which gives him decent pressure up close, or harass from afar. He has a strange 'sassy walk' where he walks forward with different properties depending on LMH. L has infinite super armor and can be canceled into specials and super. M is a parry where if he's hit with a physical attack, he'll dodge. H is a command throw where if he touches the opponent he'll pop them in the air for a follow-up. 214A sends The World out to do a single punch that differs depending on LMH. He can also do blood-suck, which drains life.
Of course, DIO also has his famous Time Stop, which is used mostly to guarantee a combo reset as they get up off the ground. Doing this after his super will guarantee a perfect wall combo after.
Ultimately, you'll have to master BOTH S-ON and S-OFF to get the most out of DIO. Then you can use the S button to instantly fill space between you and the opponent with The World, or create space by calling him back.
Other note: Here we have two characters that rely heavily on the wall. I don't know why some people say the wall isn't important in this game, I think it's as important as it is in Tekken.
Jonathan Demonstration and then a set VS DIO (part 3):
http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm31633160
Jonathan: When the game first came out, FGC folks would point beginners to Jonathan as the 'Ryu' of the game. While most of his moves 'look' like Ryu's, they had completely different uses. His 'dragon punch', for example, isn't very good as an anti-air at all. It's used mostly in combo's or to abuse it's super armor to plow through enemy attacks. He's really a pure rushdown character that abuses super armor to run a train over his opponents. Comboing into tackle (6H) will send the opponent flying to the wall, which opens up his really scary wall vortex that can lead to huge side wall combos. Using him as a 'balanced' Ryu type reveals his his weaknesses: mainly he's a big target that has a hard time dealing with jump-ins, and when he's not on the attack, he's pretty clunky and stiff. If you play a clunky character in a game that feels clunky overall to beginners, then you'll have a pretty crappy time when you first try the game.
His zoom punch (6M) is an interesting move in that it has a big start-up, but recovers super quick (0 on block). If it hits, the opponent crumples and you can dash in for a combo.
He has a special move that costs 1 bar (but will drain ALL your meter if you have more) that ensures that you revive when you die with 25% health. After you revive, you can't use meter at all, but all your specials come out as EX moves. With this health bonus, Jonathan has the highest health in the game, with Hermes at 2nd place. Some people decide to start the round with this, but I think it's a bad idea. Largely because you're starting the round with no meter, and Jonathan can't do his big reversals or big combos with out it. So you often see those Jonathan players lose half their health until they gain enough meter so they can fight back.
It's hard to place Jonathan on a tier list because he has holes in his game play (there are parts in block strings where you can parry if they're not done tight enough) and he has a bit of a challenge in neutral, but he does soooo much damage...
Part 3 DIO: He's also a character that tons of people flock to, largely because he's probably the most iconic character in the series. People want to main him, but it turns out you will lose A LOT with this character before you start to get wins. This is due to him being a combo maniac (execution and position experience needed) and being tied for lowest health in the game with only 830 health. On top of this, it takes a lot of practice to figure out how to make use of his Stand-Off moves, which means that once new players get hard knockdown, they loose Stand-On and try to scramble to get The World out (often taking a bunch of damage in the process). It's hard to blame them, as his main gameplan revolves around S-ON. Get S-ON, combo into gut-puch, send them to the wall, and use the The World's giant body and beefy normals to lock them there. He gains an instant overhead into a full combo, while using the back wall to set-up big combos. He becomes a bit of a glass cannon, with the ability mash opponents to paste, while losing if he gets sneezed on.
In S-OFF he can throw knives, which gives him decent pressure up close, or harass from afar. He has a strange 'sassy walk' where he walks forward with different properties depending on LMH. L has infinite super armor and can be canceled into specials and super. M is a parry where if he's hit with a physical attack, he'll dodge. H is a command throw where if he touches the opponent he'll pop them in the air for a follow-up. 214A sends The World out to do a single punch that differs depending on LMH. He can also do blood-suck, which drains life.
Of course, DIO also has his famous Time Stop, which is used mostly to guarantee a combo reset as they get up off the ground. Doing this after his super will guarantee a perfect wall combo after.
Ultimately, you'll have to master BOTH S-ON and S-OFF to get the most out of DIO. Then you can use the S button to instantly fill space between you and the opponent with The World, or create space by calling him back.
Other note: Here we have two characters that rely heavily on the wall. I don't know why some people say the wall isn't important in this game, I think it's as important as it is in Tekken.
lucebuce12
Member
Another fantastic post as always FreeMeal, love it 
Just one minor complaint. You keep saying "The World" when you should be saying "Za Warudo".
Just one minor complaint. You keep saying "The World" when you should be saying "Za Warudo".
jk
Another fantastic post as always FreeMeal, love it
Just one minor complaint. You keep saying "The World" when you should be saying "Za Warudo".jk
We do not kid about these things. Jojo is serious business.
shaowebb
Member
Really makes me wanna go back and give this game another go.
Game kinda reminded me of the Brawl situation though of having to play story mode to unlock most of the roster. Not many games do that anymore. Check out how many dudes were behind chapter unlocks in the game.
Z
ZelbZelb
Unconfirmed Member
Most of those story 'parts' are super short, though. The part 3 one and unlocking Josuke 8 are a slog, though.
If you are interested in giving the game another try, I have to stress the same thing I tell everyone that shows interest: The first few days you will hate the game. This is largely in part to the game feeling very stiff/clunky. Particularly because you won't know how to do damage, or how to get in without jumping all the time, and it will feel like the game is eating your inputs.
The game is very timing based. If you dash forward, you can cancel it into another dash (wave dash) or a run (hold forward), but otherwise you have to wait until the dash is done to input moves. There's also a crap-ton of hit-stop (when you hit the opponent, the game pauses a bit to emphasize the hit). The hit-stop effect everything, so multi-hitting moves can make it seem like the frame rate is tanking.
So, a lot of your development will be about 'smoothing out' your game. If you don't know the timing on things, you can always hold up to see the exact moment you can input again. Also, changing the timing of when you use moves greatly expands their use. For a good example, see the Annasui VS Esidisi match I posted (I can post again if you want). Annasui seems really limited at first, but changing how you combine moves and the timing gives a large amount of dirty, filthy set-ups.
If you are trying to figure out a character, you can go to this forum to see community created character guides: http://ls57tiger.freepgs.com/jojo/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=41
The only character missing is Iggy.
If you are having issues with the game, you could try some vids I made addressing the issues people still have with the game, which includes tips on how to overcome them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7Lx0jsg2w&list=PLdukRv18A2QKE1gm3ONL-vrdfY5wdlAOa
shaowebb
Member
Thanks for this. I try to give as many fighters a fair shake as possible...never know what interesting and unique tools and systems might be out there if I dont try to explore the genre as much as possible. My biggest problem with Jojo though is more than likely the weird ass outfits, over acting and body language that I have always found off putting in this series. Im on like, I dunno, my fourth attempt to watch this thing and its a struggle with douchenerds like Von Stroheim showing up in action packed cyber girdle and high pitched screaming either in super glee or flip flopping to panic attacks worse than Vegeta after finding himself dwarfed yet again in a fight unexpectedly. That shit happens constantly and within moments of each other. Esidisisisisis or whatever just outta no where starts crying in a fight and then stops and goes "im fine now. All better. Had to get that over with. Now Im super composed and unreadable."
Jojo is just so rough to watch for me. Way too much...
" OH NO!" *freeze frame* " Now you lose!"
*freeze frame to good guy* "You fell for it!"
*cut to shocked everyone else and that one dude who gets it*
" I SEE! JOJO DID THIS AND THIS AND THIS! He has the upper hand!"
*freeze frame to Jojo smirking* *attack* * pose like pornstar trying to thrust while simultaneously trying to scratch their back and do sign language at the same time*
You know you've gone too far when a Toku fan thinks the amount of posing in your series is absolutely stupid and dumb looking.
Occassionally there are some truly unique and intriguing powers that crop up and some really tactical strategic shit thats fun like using shot glasses to reflect lasers and banking a round ball bearing shot from a crossbow around the circular rim of an arena to hit someone from behind but its always waaaaaaaaaaay to super over contrived and bullshitty. Plus it looks like all the outfits were designed by one of those ridiculous runway fashion dudes who think spectacle and ridiculously loud weird shit somehow equates to good design and trendiness (no one dresses that way or uses that sorta clown makeup). And all that over acting...I've seen scene kids with bipolar disorder act more composed than these characters.
Jojo and me...we dont see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. However, if you got unique power concepts and tactical applications of it written you will have my attention...perhaps even my interest with enough effort.
Hope I can see past that weird "Jojo" stuff to get into the unique systems of this game. I really wanna find out more about that blonde flag using guy who might be the president or some shit. He seems all kinds of fucking crazy in abilities in Jojo ASB.
EDIT: Dope ass ending theme song with Roundabout though. Funky as fuck bass line.
shaowebb
Member
Heh. You've never heard me go in on character design. I get really particular on stuff. I have all kinds of pet peeves with art, anatomy, and character design. If it requires a fucking backstory to sell it then it fails IMO. It either is or isn't fun to look at. You're either well designed or your that RPG dude with Knee nickels and a pizza cutter sword. Doing pointless things with clothing, expression, and body language is just attention whoring. You can get intricate, you can get fancy, but know when its gotten ridiculous.
I can't tell you how many times I've subtle tweaked armor on this one character design to provide for more fluid movement and just how often I've redesigned shit for someone based on the body language and personality they need to convey.
Just being loud to seem interesting in bodylanguage or design or stopping every few seconds to explain why something is cool bugs me. You either can or cannot get a character or attack over. Maybe its my background in pro wrestling where you dont have the liberty to give your attacks in the ring a backstory and have to get them over on your own. Who knows.
I have things I hate. I do try to stay on the lighter side as much as possible though. Surrounded by too many haters on and offline to wanna contribute to that unless its for a very real and justified cause...like cinematic Tax in Injustice 2 or overly recycling marvel 3 to produce MVCI's roster and then completely overhauling the game's core assist
and 3v3 structure to differentiate yourself enough to justify calling it a "new" game.
Oh or Aquapazzza. Negative emotion is whack as fuck.
If he isn't the master of raw, per hit damage, then I do not know who is.
The Lone Dragon
Member
EVO replay is on Disney XD right now, for those that missed it live.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Gotta add to those "5 million views".
irfaanator
Banned
this is the bad jojo that astarte likes though
Ask him what he thinks about Aquapazza, his favorite fighting game. :V
Fake edit: I see that he already brought this up. The whole emotion system really is kind of badly implemented. I get the impression that they thought that defense would be too easy and wanted to create something that required people to be more active on defense... except that it turns out that you could completely remove the mechanic and none of the good characters would even care -- they would just all fuck you up anyway. It just turned into a giant anti-comeback mechanic as your reward for blocking (without impact guard) is that you get to take more damage when you get hit.
I still enjoy the game, though. :x
shaowebb
Member
For what its worth I probably have more positive things to say about Aquapazza than Phantom Breaker Extra. Aquapazza's negative emotion may get in the way of good defense being something with rewards, but Phantom Breaker Extra actually managed to make an entire game get in the way of both all of its offense and defense.
- almost everything can clash
- it has counters
- it has bursts
- it has two to three MORE systems to cause clashes. Some are systems that are very specific inputs some are not
- it has easy inputs meaning if folks get mashy the counters and clashing goes off rapid fire uncontrollably and nigh unreadable
- there is next to no reward for defensive play as it gets you locked down by zoning almost instantly and then its just who has better buttons. All these defensive tools and their is no consistent way to convert off of them because mashers can generally clash out of your followup by accident due to one of several systems that may kick in
Its a game that negates all of its own offense damned near at random. It actually almost feels like it encourages people to try mashing or something because that will literally get you out of things. The entire game is just shit accidentally bouncing off impotently on approach and mid combo. Only way to play it is essentially full zoner because its the only offense thats not at the mercy of faaaaaaaaar too many counter/reflect/burst/clash systems all layering atop themselves. Far more ways for an attack to not do anything than for it to hit. Better left as a beat em up series. Can't say I really got anything positive to say bout it except it had a decent size roster in it at launch.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Paul Phoenix hands down.
Nah. Might as well argue for King, if you're going that route. A single, relatively easily avoidable move does NOT a "master of per hit damage" make.
Boards... don't hit back. Unless Mokujin. And even Mokujin steps Phoenix Smasher for free.
Spuck-uk
Banned
A move so easily avoidable that it hits players in top 8s of majors all the time.
Paul can do more damage with 3 hit combos than many characters can with 8.
The only character off the top of my head with a harder single hit move than deathfist that you see commonly see in any fighting game is Akira Yukis Tetsuzanko
Yeah. Even in 2D games the only time I ever see a single move do so much damage is a sup grab or one of those novelty chargeable moves.
lucebuce12
Member
It's not so much about being slow, but rather being a predictable move (why WOULDN'T a Paul player constantly have the deathfist in their mind) and also being a very linear move so it's quite easy to side step if you can anticipate it or if you have a read.
That and it can also be punished by most characters easily unless it's spaced incredibly well.
Deathfist is still a scary AF move in any level of the game but at higher levels, it needs to be just a part of your moveset and not the primary highlight of it.
People getting hit in top 8 with it, are out-mind gaming themselves.
It is nothing compared to Jack's ridiculous repertoire of single hits, frame traps, and counter hits.
You are still either side-stepping (ironically enough), or simply not comprehending the whole "per hit" bit that was the very heart of my post. That's not a good look.
lucebuce12
Member
Either you didn't use the words "per hit" correctly, or you don't know anything about Tekken or you're just trolling.
I personally think it's the first option, but it might be the third considering your post history.
sixteen-bit
Member
Anyone signing up for the Dissidia NT closed beta?
lucebuce12
Member
Damage per hit, I'm assuming here, is basically talking about doing as much damage as possible with the fewest number of hits.
That's why characters like Paul and Akira are the best example because they have short combos but they all have incredibly high damage.
Damn, luce just swinging for forwards life there
I think you really need to look into discovering what it is you are saying, before speaking. I do not expect that much from you, though, sadly. Not least because that would require effort above and beyond your jaw.