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Fighting Games Weekly | Apr 27 - May 3 | NeoGAF actually plays games?!

Not many people mentioned it, but one factor which would raise the chance of SFV being a success is the departure of Yoshinori Ono imo. :p The dude just isn't very good at his job imo and having Dimps also working on the game isn't a positive. The blame isn't all on him of course, but just look at the numerous dumb / baffling decisions made over the existence of SFIV. The clashing mess of mechanics and systems, new characters being disappointing for the most part (many of you asking themselves what Ono was thinking when designing Decapre), the weird ass SFIV AE version and Ono reasoning for making Yun overpowered. o_O

Why should we be fairly optimistic about SFV if it's the same "talent" working on that game? :p
You may not like Ono, but SFIV has been a massive success. It's still in the top 3 played fighting games despite the initial 2008 arcade release. We're talking about the game being 7 years old at this point, and people still love playing it. Yeah, it has gotten updates, but it is basically the same game.

Ono is also responsible for Focus Attack, which is one of the most brilliant additions to fighting games in recent time. In a generation filled with stupid ass ASW mechanics, combo breakers, and TACs, Ono came up with Focus Attack. Yes, SFxT was severely screwed up, but I strongly doubt most of that is Ono's fault. In fact, for nearly every bad decision at Capcom, I blame a guy in a suit that just wants to see numbers.

Ono is deeply passionate about fighting games. Who would even replace him? Who has more talent? I mean with realistic plausibility, not a dream developer.

I do wish they could get S-Kill back on the team, though. He has said some dubious things, but he is top tier with theory crafting, and that's the most important skill when developing a new fighting game.

Confusion has a good hit box on it. I'm surprised how often I catch people who stick out a normal both on the ground and air. It also leads to a mixup, but I do have to wait if I want to go for the grab.
Maybe I will try throwing it out more. I see other Mewtwos use it.

Fuck Elph- she got what was coming to her.
Jealous Faust main right here.
 

Tizoc

Member
I don't like chain combos, but I thought SFxT's links/combo system was okay. Didn't like how easy it was to land chains into tags, etc.

I hope SF5 is something similar, but with more target combos over the chains.

Charlie trailer shows me links are still in (I love links), and maybe even target combos, so I'm very happy with what I've seen so far.

Of course, Charlie is my favorite SF character OF ALL TIME, so I'm very biased right now.

I'm just glad I can now do HD Genocide Cutters ;3;
 

Kimosabae

Banned
I was pretty casual in my approach. I don't think you know what you are talking about here. Ogawa took it far, far more seriously than I did. I made a forum post or two in the Xrd OT, and that's where I left it.


Yeah, "it'll be fixed when the game releases" is almost always the wrong perspective to have, and I say that solely from experience. However you see it, that's probably how it will be unless the company states otherwise. Even then, they might be lying, haha.

IIRC, Ogawa went so far as to start a local campaign against the Zato changes. He talked to all the top Xrd players and tried to get them to join him in protesting the Zato changes. We should take this stuff seriously when it affects our hobby. I agree with you that it is completely nonsensical to only get upset when the changes are "official". Then you are just waiting until it is too late to make your voice heard. I didn't contact ASW or anything, though, because I don't know if they even care about a random like me. I know that, if I were balancing a game, I would not give a crap about some guy named Karsticles on the internet.

I am glad they listened to Ogawa's protests. I hear he is still unhappy with the state of the character, though. If Elphelt is still as bad as I hear, I don't blame him for feeling that way.

Holy shit, man. I meant you're taking this very criticism too seriously. I even used detestable smilies in hopes that it would soften the jab enough so I wouldn't have to deal with any walls of text.

My approach isn't to wait until changes are final to bitch - it's to not bitch in general. Granted, I like to just see how shit plays out first before making changes but If I generally like a game: I don't care if my character is bad, good, nerfed, whatever. As long as the character/game is still fun to play. I don't marry myself to one character either. As long as I like the game in general, I'll simply pick another character if changes to a particular character haven't served me well. 9.9/10 that complain about character changes don't even have any competitive aspirations so their complaining is meaningless. If my favorite character has become competitively inviable, then my favorites simply become side characters to a more competitive main (s).

The only changes I concern myself with are changes to general design. If I like a game, the character balance can go in any way. I don't approve or condemn Ogawa's complaining. It's just not my style. I'd like to see this sternly written fan fiction, assuming it's true.
 
I feel bad for SFxT fans. There was a fever pitch level of hype for that game from the announcement through the first public tests. The crowds of people I watched at EVO playing early builds without the bullshit were ecstatic for the game. Same when I went to the SFxT event here in San Fran.

It's a really strong base of a fighting game that rewards footsies like no other recent Capcom title, and it didn't deserve to get all screwed up.

It hurts to see Capcom throw away the seemingly-infinite goodwill they built with SF4 and vanilla Marvel 3.
 

Skilletor

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";161775619]I feel bad for SFxT fans. There was a fever pitch level of hype for that game from the announcement through the first public tests. The crowds of people I watched at EVO playing early builds without the bullshit were ecstatic for the game. Same when I went to the SFxT event here in San Fran.

It's a really strong base of a fighting game that rewards footsies like no other recent Capcom title, and it didn't deserve to get all screwed up.[/QUOTE]

I can't even talk about it with people that say they like fighters without immediately being dismissed and insulted for liking a game they then dismiss and insult.

Feels bad, man.

Also, fuck Capcom for not updating the PC version with all of the costume DLC. Don't even have my ninja Guy in a game where Guy feels like Guy should.

:(
 
Holy shit, man. I meant you're taking this very criticism too seriously. I even used detestable smilies in hopes that it would soften the jab enough so I wouldn't have to deal with any walls of text.

My approach isn't to wait until changes are final to bitch - it's to not bitch in general. Granted, I like to just see how shit plays out first before making changes but If I generally like a game: I don't care if my character is bad, good, nerfed, whatever. As long as the character/game is still fun to play. I don't marry myself to one character either. As long as I like the game in general, I'll simply pick another character if changes to a particular character haven't served me well. 9.9/10 that complain about character changes don't even have any competitive aspirations so their complaining is meaningless. If my favorite character has become competitively inviable, then my favorites simply become side characters to a more competitive main (s).

The only changes I concern myself with are changes to general design. If I like a game, the character balance can go in any way. I don't approve or condemn Ogawa's complaining. It's just not my style. I'd like to see this sternly written fan fiction, assuming it's true.
I don't feel like you are very good at reading my attitude. :-/ I am just responding to your posts because you are making them. Maybe some projection going on.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";161775619]I feel bad for SFxT fans. There was a fever pitch level of hype for that game from the announcement through the first public tests. The crowds of people I watched at EVO playing early builds without the bullshit were ecstatic for the game. Same when I went to the SFxT event here in San Fran.

It's a really strong base of a fighting game that rewards footsies like no other recent Capcom title, and it didn't deserve to get all screwed up.

It hurts to see Capcom throw away the seemingly-infinite goodwill they built with SF4 and vanilla Marvel 3.[/QUOTE]
I am glad the game failed just because of the DLC policies, but I don't have ill will toward people that want to play it.

How did the game reward footsies like no other recent Capcom title? I really don't know much about the game from a mechanics standpoint.
 

fader

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";161775619]I feel bad for SFxT fans. There was a fever pitch level of hype for that game from the announcement through the first public tests. The crowds of people I watched at EVO playing early builds without the bullshit were ecstatic for the game. Same when I went to the SFxT event here in San Fran.

It's a really strong base of a fighting game that rewards footsies like no other recent Capcom title, and it didn't deserve to get all screwed up.

It hurts to see Capcom throw away the seemingly-infinite goodwill they built with SF4 and vanilla Marvel 3.[/QUOTE]

yea.... but now we HAVE to play ShitFighter4....
 
I mean, you can track Capcom's stock with the fans from the beginning to end of last gen and it's just depressing.

Right out the gates they have the Lost Planet E3 demo for the fans that comes out way before the actual game. Then they have Dead Rising, DMC4, SF4, Marvel 3. Everyone believed they were the gods of Japanese devs. Then Megaman Legends gets canceled, UMVC3 comes out way too damn fast, SFxT gets monetized to shit, Ono trolls us with intentionally broken SF4 characters and everything starts going out the window. Every time, something worse happens.


Meanwhile, the loyal Capcom fans be all like

img_20150426_195900436mso9.jpg
 

kitzkozan

Member
Ono is deeply passionate about fighting games. Who would even replace him? Who has more talent? I mean with realistic plausibility, not a dream developer.

I do wish they could get S-Kill back on the team, though. He has said some dubious things, but he is top tier with theory crafting, and that's the most important skill when developing a new fighting game.

I'm convinced that in better times, the fighting game division of Capcom wouldn't have to rely on Ono who was a sound management director in the SFIII days? The problem is that there's just about nobody else left from the glory days which is reflective of how bad the company is at the moment. I remember an interview where he said that he was about the only one left who cared and believed in Street fighter at the company, which say it all lol.

S-Kill would surely benefit the game, but there's plenty of westerners who could help out if the talent pool at Capcom Japan is too thin (Combofiend?).

It's just sad that the flagship FG is at the helm of a B or even C tier team. XD Even worse is that Capcom is nearly broke, which gave us a cheap as fuck USFIV update. Street Fighter simply deserve better imo...
 

Skilletor

Member
I'm convinced that in better times, the fighting game division of Capcom wouldn't have to rely on Ono who was a sound management director in the SFIII days? The problem is that there's just about nobody else left from the glory days which is reflective of how bad the company is at the moment. I remember an interview where he said that he was about the only one left who cared and believed in Street fighter at the company, which say it all lol.

S-Kill would surely benefit the game, but there's plenty of westerners who could help out if the talent pool at Capcom Japan is too thin (Combofiend?).

It's just sad that the flagship FG is at the helm of a B or even C tier team. XD Even worse is that Capcom is nearly broke, which gave us a cheap as fuck USFIV update. Street Fighter simply deserve better imo...

S-Kill made the ST changes, didn't he?

Yeah, no thanks.
 
I'm convinced that in better times, the fighting game division of Capcom wouldn't have to rely on Ono who was a sound management director in the SFIII days? The problem is that there's just about nobody else left from the glory days which is reflective of how bad the company is at the moment. I remember an interview where he said that he was about the only one left who cared and believed in Street fighter at the company, which say it all lol.

S-Kill would surely benefit the game, but there's plenty of westerners who could help out if the talent pool at Capcom Japan is too thin (Combofiend?).

It's just sad that the flagship FG is at the helm of a B or even C tier team. XD Even worse is that Capcom is nearly broke, which gave us a cheap as fuck USFIV update. Street Fighter simply deserve better imo...

What does it matter that he was a sound manager on sf3 before? People dont get promoted? What were combofiend and skill doing before capcom.
 

Thulius

Member
How did the game reward footsies like no other recent Capcom title? I really don't know much about the game from a mechanics standpoint.

Wakeup rolls did a lot to eliminate the vortex loop of get knocked down > guess and chains being really negative on block made proper (meterless) hitconfirms far more important. Alpha counters also gave people an answer to predictable, safe blockstrings. Short throw range/slow throw startup makes them a much more conscious mixup instead of "well they're blocking this string may as well go for a tick/kara throw."

Mechanically SFxT actually did a lot of smart stuff. Shame about the whole gems thing.
 

Tizoc

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";161777032]I mean, you can track Capcom's stock with the fans from the beginning to end of last gen and it's just depressing.

Right out the gates they have the Lost Planet E3 demo for the fans that comes out way before the actual game. Then they have Dead Rising, DMC4, SF4, Marvel 3. Everyone believed they were the gods of Japanese devs. Then Megaman Legends gets canceled, UMVC3 comes out way too damn fast, SFxT gets monetized to shit, Ono trolls us with intentionally broken SF4 characters and everything starts going out the window. Every time, something worse happens.


Meanwhile, the loyal Capcom fans be all like

img_20150426_195900436mso9.jpg
[/QUOTE]

LP3 was good IMO; nothing amazing but not as bad as people make it out to be. Its a serviceable shooter with a good story, characters and voice acting.
 

fader

Member
Does Capcom have any internal studios that can do Street Fighter justice?

whats wrong with dimps?

For what it's worth, I always got the impression that the gross monetization aspects of SFxTK were handed down by the higher-ups and not really an invention of the design team; or at the very least, the design team was pressured into coming up with something along those lines. Ono had some veiled remarks about this sort of thing during Inafune's departure from the company, saying that Inafune (who was a producer for SF4) "understood fighting games" and what they needed to be widely liked and successful, while he was worried about how some of the other suits might not be as in-tune and may tinker with things that they shouldn't.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not completely making that up, anyway.

I don't think you're that off. I mean, read past interviews with ono. He laughed at the idea of DLC back in 2008, he felt it was like "selling a chess player a rook" . in fact, Super was manly made so the game can have DLC.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
For what it's worth, I always got the impression that the gross monetization aspects of SFxTK were handed down by the higher-ups and not really an invention of the design team; or at the very least, the design team was pressured into coming up with something along those lines. Ono had some veiled remarks about this sort of thing during Inafune's departure from the company, saying that Inafune (who was a producer for SF4) "understood fighting games" and what they needed to be widely liked and successful, while he was worried about how some of the other suits might not be as in-tune and may tinker with things that they shouldn't.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not completely making that up, anyway.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
No matter how good of a designer you are it's possible to still make a bad game. Especially since games are so massive nowadays, you have a bunch of hands in the making of the game. It's never just one person that can create a failure or success now.

For what it's worth, I always got the impression that the gross monetization aspects of SFxTK were handed down by the higher-ups and not really an invention of the design team; or at the very least, the design team was pressured into coming up with something along those lines. Ono had some veiled remarks about this sort of thing during Inafune's departure from the company, saying that Inafune (who was a producer for SF4) "understood fighting games" and what they needed to be widely liked and successful, while he was worried about how some of the other suits might not be as in-tune and may tinker with things that they shouldn't.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not completely making that up, anyway.

Remember before SF5 was announced and the company president (?) said they were considering pay for advantage? Then they tried to sweep it under the rug by saying he didn't even mention SF5, which I believe was an outright lie.

We're going to be taken for a ride, aren't we?
 

Tizoc

Member
Is that out stateside yet? I bought the import, but need my english.

Although, I am trying to move on to current gen. Just easier to consolidate everything. #thestruggle #firstworldproblems

I've had the US ver. in my PS3 for over a month now.
US PSN ver. was like a little under $30 on release :p
 

petran79

Banned
Its that time again...

This one should get good...

Mamahaha!
Go Puppy!



Marvel was always easier than DS. Marketing the game that way probably would have lured in fewer people and the game got plenty of nods towards DS with the slightly monster-like designs and dark atmosphere. The offense is somewhat similar, but pushblock not being piano based and not having Dark Force definitely differentiated them. Being "Dark Deco" ultimately set it apart and an all girl roster still would have pushed the same people away. Nothing would have changed at best.

This isn't wrong and I'd buy whatever Lab Zero makes. It might be better for them to try another genre if they can. A lot of people are going to read your post and make shitty assumptions, though. I have 24 people on my friend list who own the game and there are around half a dozen killers among them who have wrecked me thoroughly (or decently enough). Another handful are probably around my level. I've played some of the remaining ones a few times and some of them are solid. These are not casuals by any definition I've read.

Edit: I got 58 XIII owners, 56 USFIV owners, 22 MK9 owners, 14 Injustice owners and 11 BBCSE owners. It is a nice spread.

Sometimes I am thankful for SFxT. The game had such a shitty start that not even SG's cursed birth can compete. Lab Zero lost like seven to nine months of communication and dev time. That was more than a sting. It was like getting in the ring and taking a sunday punch to the chin at the beginning of the round. There were definitely some big objective problems with the vanilla version.

Subjective and the art is it's strength. The people who would have picked it up had the art been different would have just been fad players for three months until the next shiny game caught their eye.

A lot of people play it (at least on PC). I never have problems finding games and the IRC makes networking a cinch. We're still here after three years and hundreds of posts on gaf talking about the game being dead, boring, ugly or just plain bad.

I'll agree on one thing. The offense is stronger than ever before. The defense is going to receive major shakeups with Robo Fortune's release and continued Big Band/Fukua refinement, though. Steamrolling right now is definitely a tad strong with certain characters in the game.

Watching the recent tournament it surprised me how young most Skullgirls players were in comparison to other games. As if they were more open-minded and didnt mind about the game's aesthetic. While the more popular young players and the dinosaurs preferred the more traditional fighters and the pure anime fighters.
Game needs more exposure. I am sure if players like J.Wong had played the game, they'd wreck anybody in there!
Ironically still no Japanese player seems to like the game for tournaments.
Game seems not to be for Japanese or Western FG fans, but just for Western fans who like anime!

Regarding SFxTekken failure, it has also to do with the fact that it catered to Tekken fans as well. Hence why it was popular at first. But when TTT2 arrived and with less problematic netcode, they abandoned SFxTekken, leaving the game to SF fans who went back to SF4....
 
No matter how good of a designer you are it's possible to still make a bad game. Especially since games are so massive nowadays, you have a bunch of hands in the making of the game. It's never just one person that can create a failure or success now.
But you need some one at the top who understands what the final thing is supposed to be, how everything should fit together. When there is no coordination and you just cram multiple moving systems together you get a pile of shit like AssCreed 3.
 

fader

Member
Remember before SF5 was announced and the company president (?) said they were considering pay for advantage? Then they tried to sweep it under the rug by saying he didn't even mention SF5, which I believe was an outright lie.

We're going to be taken for a ride, aren't we?

what?

Ono came out and said that the game was still in early stages and it wasn't something they were planning for. Ono even came out AGAIN when the game was announced and reassured it was a fully packaged game and not F2P.

And it would be DUMB if they said it wasn't F2P and they release it as a F2P game.
 
I wonder whether Sony being in the loop for SFV will prevent Capcom from Capcom-ing the game, atleast as badly. Sony's attitude this gen seems to be "if it ain't broke...".
 

BadWolf

Member
Remember before SF5 was announced and the company president (?) said they were considering pay for advantage? Then they tried to sweep it under the rug by saying he didn't even mention SF5, which I believe was an outright lie.

We're going to be taken for a ride, aren't we?

The partnership with Sony may have let Ono make the game that he wanted to make, instead of being dictated by Capcom's suits.
 
I'm convinced that in better times, the fighting game division of Capcom wouldn't have to rely on Ono who was a sound management director in the SFIII days? The problem is that there's just about nobody else left from the glory days which is reflective of how bad the company is at the moment. I remember an interview where he said that he was about the only one left who cared and believed in Street fighter at the company, which say it all lol.

S-Kill would surely benefit the game, but there's plenty of westerners who could help out if the talent pool at Capcom Japan is too thin (Combofiend?).

It's just sad that the flagship FG is at the helm of a B or even C tier team. XD Even worse is that Capcom is nearly broke, which gave us a cheap as fuck USFIV update. Street Fighter simply deserve better imo...
Just because you're a sound management director doesn't mean you can't be great at other things. Most big names in gaming were small-timers at some point. It seems unreasonable to count Ono's past experience against his current potential.

S-Kill made the ST changes, didn't he?

Yeah, no thanks.
I know others have corrected this, but I don't think it's even about that. An individual will attempt a feat, and he or she may not succeed. That does not discount the individual's potential. Sometimes, on subsequent attempts, it may be better or worse. Miyazaki went Demon's Souls -> Dark Souls -> Bloodborne. Incredible to meh to godlike. Miyamoto has made crap like Wii Music. Sakurai made Brawl after Melee. Games just aren't a consistent art form. Even a great developer will make a turd sometimes because an idea seems good on the table, and maybe even during testing. If someone consistently makes crap games, then that's one thing. At least in terms of Marvel 3 history, S-Kill has said all of the following:
A nerf to Jill from MvC3 to UMvC3 was needed.
Sentinel keeping his high HP in Vanilla MvC3 was necessary.
UMvC3 needed buffs to keepaway in general.
Vanilla Dante was mid tier.
Vergil is mid tier.

These are all things I've heard him say in interviews over time. Three of these perspectives are extremely wrong, but the other two are correct. In general, I think S-Kill knows what he is doing, but no one is going to be perfect all the time. I would trust Seth Killian to balance a game more than most people.

The most important thing to me is whether the director has a health approach to game balance. I actually like how Sakurai has been handling Smash so far.

Wakeup rolls did a lot to eliminate the vortex loop of get knocked down > guess and chains being really negative on block made proper (meterless) hitconfirms far more important. Alpha counters also gave people an answer to predictable, safe blockstrings. Short throw range/slow throw startup makes them a much more conscious mixup instead of "well they're blocking this string may as well go for a tick/kara throw."

Mechanically SFxT actually did a lot of smart stuff. Shame about the whole gems thing.
Isn't this stuff part of why it became SFxTimeout?

Is that out stateside yet? I bought the import, but need my english.

Although, I am trying to move on to current gen. Just easier to consolidate everything. #thestruggle #firstworldproblems
I am right there with you. I won't buy non-PS4 fighters (well, Smash...).

For what it's worth, I always got the impression that the gross monetization aspects of SFxTK were handed down by the higher-ups and not really an invention of the design team; or at the very least, the design team was pressured into coming up with something along those lines. Ono had some veiled remarks about this sort of thing during Inafune's departure from the company, saying that Inafune (who was a producer for SF4) "understood fighting games" and what they needed to be widely liked and successful, while he was worried about how some of the other suits might not be as in-tune and may tinker with things that they shouldn't.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not completely making that up, anyway.
You are remembering correctly. Inafune was a friend to fighters. He left, and it's probably not a coincidence that Darkstalkers and Capcom vs. Capcom got canned.
 

kitzkozan

Member
What does it matter that he was a sound manager on sf3 before? People dont get promoted? What were combofiend and skill doing before capcom.

Except that he wasn't really promoted, moreso that he was like the choice by default after an exodus of talent (I remember hearing that most people assigned to making FG gradually left after SFIII bombed and 2D fighters lost popularity).

I'm not an hater of SFIV like others in the FGC thread are, but I'm interested in actual facts and there's been numerous glaring mistakes made upon the various version of SFIV and SFxT (it's up to each individual to judge how much blame befall on Capcom higher ups or the development team as it's a matter of perception given the lack of precise details).

Regarding SFV, I'm optimistic about the following aspect given the involvement of Sony:

- I'm sure the game won't be riddled with all kind of DLC crap or the on disc character fiasco of SFxT.

-With the upcoming beta test, I expect a solid netcode and I'm sure Sony will assist Capcom with this aspect.

Otherwise, let's see if Sony funds can help them in making a game worthy of being the flagship title of the FGC.
 
Is there a guide somewhere that covers the game flow (not game mechanics) of UNIEL? Was playing some last night but had no idea what to be looking out for asides from mashing GRIM REAPAH all day.
 

Tripon

Member
whats wrong with dimps?

Nothing, just wondering if Capcom has the capabilities to make a Street Fighter or any fighting game at the moment.

Edit: 5 things I spam

Ryu's Fireball, Ibuki's kunai, Ike's Anther, Ike's Close Combat, and Yuri's butt stomp.
 

Thulius

Member
Isn't this stuff part of why it became SFxTimeout?

Sure, probably. It's mostly not a good spectator game because watching 99 seconds of footsies isn't exciting to most people, but I mean... people still praise CvS2. There's more than enough potential for matches to end quickly in SFxT but two players with solid fundamentals are gonna have a hard time forcing eachother into a position where they just have to guess.

Timeouts weren't even that common post-patch.
 

pixelish

Member
pacquiao & mayweather as bonus characters in sf5?
Street Fighter ‏@StreetFighter 42s
Who’s excited for the #Pacquiao #Mayweather Fight? We’ll be talking about it all this week so keep an eye out!
 
Timeouts weren't even that common post-patch.
People kept saying this after v2013, but as somebody whose only exposure to the game was when it was streamed at majors... timeouts were still way too common. Even if it wasn't true in general the perception was still there.
 
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