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[Lostconfused]

Mike Z. and Derek Daniels(God of War combat designer) going in on Ultra glitches:

http://shoryuken.com/2014/08/16/developer-commentary-derek-omni-daniels-and-mike-zaimont-discuss-street-fighter-ivs-bugs/

I haven't spent enough time with the game to even notice that you can't set delayed wake up in training. That's not even a bug, just a gross oversight.

Great article but the most interesting parts about it are the differences in the answers from Mike and Derek. More than anything is another discussion of how development is a difficult and a very haphazard process.

 

[alstein]

Now I'm getting hype for a game that would never happen. Never mind that he Trails games have enough characters to fill out a fighting game roster by themselves. (And didn't they make a game like this on the PSP -- and it was ass?)


...and now I'm just mad. Man, I forgot how bad the localization of Sora was.

I've heard the anger from friends. The whole Suguri franchise has had a bit of a tragic fate in the West with poor publishers.

I haven't gotten far enough in trails, but I wouldn't mind pulling off a Sadist Whip super and then going drunk like Hwa Jai.

 

[Rhapsody]

A Falcom fighter would be pretty neat. I'd like it done Melty style, personally.

 

[QisTopTier]

A Falcom fighter would be pretty neat. I'd like it done Melty style, personally.

Yeah I'd say Melty or Marvel speeds is a must.

Can't have Adol being slow now I think Xfactor 3 Firebrand with Luminous body would be a good speed for him.

 

[LeMaximilian]

Dimps not working on Ultra? I didn't know that.

Pretty sure it was made by some Polish studio. Could be a rumor tho.

 

[Kumubou]

A Falcom fighter would be pretty neat. I'd like it done Melty style, personally.

My first thought would be to make it a 3D game akin to Soul Calibur, since almost everyone in those games has a weapon of some kind. But a 3D FG at Ys speed would just be hard to play. Then there's the thought of having something like Ys 7 Flash Guard in a fighting game... orz.

 

[QisTopTier]

My first thought would be to make it a 3D game akin to Soul Calibur, since almost everyone in those games has a weapon of some kind. But a 3D FG at Ys speed would just be hard to play. Then there's the thought of having something like Ys 7 Flash Guard in a fighting game... orz.

It would just be a 3rd strike style parry imo

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Yeah I hadn't realized that either. I wonder if they were simply tied up with working on their new DBZ game or something? In any case it's unfortunate to hear that Ultra seems to be suffering from all of these minor annoyances.

That takeaway though from Mike ...
"From my end – like I always say, if you enjoy it, play it! But while you’re playing it, consider whether you think it is in the community’s best interest to reward this level of workmanship with money and adulation, and what accepting this now might mean for SF5 later."

Yikes.

Hate those kinds of implied guilt trips. Players wouldn't be responsible for anything even if SF5 was a massive fuck-up in all respects.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Skull girls dev talking about successful fighting games

 

[Professor Beef]

Skull girls dev talking about successful fighting games

Your avatar fits this post so well.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Did I miss the entire SF4 tournament?

 

[QisTopTier]

Skull girls dev talking about successful fighting games

Pretty sure Skullgirls was pretty successful

 

[direct_quote]

Did I miss the entire SF4 tournament?

Top 16->8 happening in like an hour on Team Spooky stream.

 

[Goon]

Skull girls dev talking about successful fighting games

ayyyy lmao

 

[enzo_gt]

Hate those kinds of implied guilt trips. Players wouldn't be responsible for anything even if SF5 was a massive fuck-up in all respects.

Yup, shit is the worst. I think most "I'm [not] buying x because it supports y part of the game" arguments are narrow-minded or have some weak causality attached to the impact that decision would make.

Semi-related, but I always hate reading or watching Mike Z interviews because it always sounds like he's snickering in his head like "but they couldn't possibly have done it the way I would have, mwahahahahah!" And then there's small things like him assuming USFIV was in active development for a year and a half. I'm not even sure how you would come up with that length of time looking at all the SF-related announcements including when USF4 was announced. He really is a master of throwing shade.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Top 16->8 happening in like an hour on Team Spooky stream.

Thanks, that's good. Any big players out?

 

[CPS2]

LMAO @ Mike Z's idea of error1 streaming himself fixing usf4 using Ono, to see how long it would take.

 

[Rhapsody]

Pretty fun BB combo video showcasing Unlimited characters and Overdrive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JltXmMbvSok&feature=youtu.be

 

[oneida]

I'm up

 

[sixteen-bit]

I'm up

GL

 

[oneida]

fuck

 

[MarcoZombieCannon]

We have any Utah dudes in here?

 

[sixteen-bit]

fuck

i jinxed it

 

[Coffeeling]

That takeaway though from Mike ...
"From my end – like I always say, if you enjoy it, play it! But while you’re playing it, consider whether you think it is in the community’s best interest to reward this level of workmanship with money and adulation, and what accepting this now might mean for SF5 later."

Yikes.

Is what I've been telling people for ages. If you know you're not going to play Ultra a lot, please don't buy it. Rewarding such a sloppy ****fest with money is not a responsible thing to do. Would be much better spent supporting devs that actually care.

 

[MrDaravon]

Rare footage of Chun-Li's level 3

Also Chun-Li

 

[Uraizen]

This is like the only time you'll hear me just up and call a game ass. I really cannot find anything enjoyable in it, and the steam port is abysmal.

Reading this put a smile on my face.

 

[MrDaravon]

Oh my god what is this guy doing

Edit: Okay thank God he was supposed to stay up there, I thought Chris G had completely destroyed him mentally.

 

[Dlent]

Pretty sure Skullgirls was pretty successful

I find this difficult to believe: I'm sure that the PS4 and Vita ports are both unprecedented and insane.

Yup, shit is the worst. I think most "I'm [not] buying x because it supports y part of the game" arguments are narrow-minded or have some weak causality attached to the impact that decision would make.

Semi-related, but I always hate reading or watching Mike Z interviews because it always sounds like he's snickering in his head like "but they couldn't possibly have done it the way I would have, mwahahahahah!" And then there's small things like him assuming USFIV was in active development for a year and a half. I'm not even sure how you would come up with that length of time looking at all the SF-related announcements including when USF4 was announced. He really is a master of throwing shade.

There really is no need to make assumptions when the list of real problems is this long. Even so it's somewhat funny that you phrase Mike Z's thought process like that, because Capcom is doing it similarly to how Mike Z already does with the Steam open Beta test.

I don't agree with Mike's final comment, but it does beg the question of how bad Street Fighter 5 would actually have to be for it to not be the most popular competitive fighting game in the world.

 

[darkblade77]

Hate those kinds of implied guilt trips. Players wouldn't be responsible for anything even if SF5 was a massive fuck-up in all respects.

SF only exists today because consumers continue to buy it. As a consumer you can have a million different reasons to buy or not buy a product, and those reasons are important to publishers because they translate to getting more sales if interpreted properly. The question is if buying games that have a shoddy finish like this are still worth your money, which is a valid question for any product.

Are you responsible if the next product is shitty? No. But if you are invested in those products and would prefer they not end up shitty, and there are enough of you that feel the same way, publishers are going to consider that when they put something out.

 

[ibrahima]

Semi-related, but I always hate reading or watching Mike Z interviews because it always sounds like he's snickering in his head like "but they couldn't possibly have done it the way I would have, mwahahahahah!"

So not just me then? I think it's the first interview of his I've seen, but god, it was a difficult read at times. The whole thing just came over very, very negatively (even beyond trolling). Everyone has their concerns about USF4 bugs alongside the PC netplay issues, but damn that piece didn't give much away to Capcom at all. I'd have thought having spent time as a developer with a retail title out in the market (which itself has had hardly a smooth and easy existence) would have given him a degree of appreciation and understanding for the kind of problems you encounter during development / production. Maybe not.

 

[Dlent]

Spooky calling out that faker Smedwicks on stream.

 

[Karsticles]

MikeZ is critical of others, but also of himself. I think he just voices his opinion on errors in general. He does this with Skullgirls all the time, and makes fun of his own mistakes.

 

[toddhunter]

I don't agree with Mike's final comment, but it does beg the question of how bad Street Fighter 5 would actually have to be for it to not be the most popular competitive fighting game in the world.

I think the issue is Mike Z has a different definition of "bad" to what really matters.

USF4 is so "bad", we had an amazing EVO played with near 2k people and... any actual problems? I can't remember any.

Even if it does have some issues, it is still an amazing fighting game to actually play. Skullgirls might not have these technical issues which is a good thing. But if his approach results in something that is dead boring to play? In my eyes he is the one who has a lot more to learn.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I think the issue is Mike Z has a different definition of "bad" to what really matters.

USF4 is so "bad", we had an amazing EVO played with near 2k people and... any actual problems? I can't remember any.

Even if it does have some issues, it is still an amazing fighting game to actually play. Skullgirls might not have these technical issues which is a good thing. But if his approach results in something that is dead boring to play? In my eyes he is the one who has a lot more to learn.

Call of Duty : Ghosts MULTIPLAYER is the worst since COD:WAW, and the tournaments/streams numbers are still growing up. You can't judge the quality of a game with the numbers. USF4 is an unfinished / buggy product, and it's far from being "amazing" in 2014.

 

[toddhunter]

Call of Duty : Ghosts is the worst Call of Duty since Call of Duty 4, and the tournaments/streams numbers are still growing up.

But how is it actually the worst? People didn't like the dog in single player?

USF4 is an unfinished / buggy product, and it's far from being "amazing" in 2014.

What issue are you actually hitting? Seeing a youtube video of a glitch doesn't really count.

 

[kirblar]

If your design isn't good, it won't matter how good the development is.

If your design is good, it can withstand a LOT of bad development.

Ultra's gameplay design is very good, even with the bugs and the E.Ryu/Yun tuning issues.

 

[Dahbomb]

The PC version of Ultra doesn't have the updated trials right?

If your design isn't good, it won't matter how good the development is.

What is the metric for this? There have been plenty of legitimately awfully designed games that have both reviewed well and have sold gangbusters. It's a matter of marketing, budget and also development that impact a game's success (because that is the topic here, successful games).

Likewise there are many games with ingenious designs but felt short due to problems in development, marketing, budgeting or just weird issues plaguing the game.

 

[darkblade77]

I think the issue is Mike Z has a different definition of "bad" to what really matters.

USF4 is so "bad", we had an amazing EVO played with near 2k people and... any actual problems? I can't remember any.

Even if it does have some issues, it is still an amazing fighting game to actually play. Skullgirls might not have these technical issues which is a good thing. But if his approach results in something that is dead boring to play? In my eyes he is the one who has a lot more to learn.

These are two really dumb streams to cross. It isn't like Capcom is intentionally making bugs that are fun, or that their development process enables bugs like this because the designers have a better idea of what is 'fun' to play.

 

[Dahbomb]

A game having bugs is not a problem of the game designers/developers its the problem of the Q&A team. I love Combofiend and Haunts but the game shipping with bugs is partly their faults as they have played fighting games extensively before and they have had access to the games for quite a while.

Historically speaking though Capcom actually ships their games with fewer bugs/glitches than their Western counter parts.

 

[kirblar]

The PC version of Ultra doesn't have the updated trials right?

What is the metric for this? There have been plenty of legitimately awfully designed games that have both reviewed well and have sold gangbusters. It's a matter of marketing, budget and also development that impact a game's success (because that is the topic here, successful games).

Likewise there are many games with ingenious designs but felt short due to problems in development, marketing, budgeting or just weird issues plaguing the game.

You can't really get a purely objective metric- but PSABR is an example of a game that was "Unfixable" due to terrible core gameplay decisions. It didn't matter how much tuning or tweaking you did, or how much fanservice you had - that stupid scoring mechanic was going to make the game suck.

"Tribute" in MTG was a mechanic they tried recently where no amount of tuning would make it fun. (And in fact, to try and make it fun/playable, they had to basically take away anything interesting about it.)

 

[toddhunter]

A game having bugs is not a problem of the game designers/developers its the problem of the Q&A team. I love Combofiend and Haunts but the game shipping with bugs is partly their faults as they have played fighting games extensively before and they have had access to the games for quite a while.

It could be, but I think it is more likely a product of budgets and deadlines. Again though, this has little to do with the developers and how much they "care".

These are two really dumb streams to cross. It isn't like Capcom is intentionally making bugs that are fun, or that their development process enables bugs like this because the designers have a better idea of what is 'fun' to play.

You missed the point completely. USF4 is not a bad game because of some bugs, just like Skullgirls is not a good game because of the lack of those issues. What actually matters is the fighting bit.

 

[Dahbomb]

You can't really get a purely objective metric- but PSABR is an example of a game that was "Unfixable" due to terrible core gameplay decisions. It didn't matter how much tuning or tweaking you did, or how much fanservice you had - that stupid scoring mechanic was going to make the game suck.

For every "bad game design" example you come up with that didn't succeed I can think of two to three times as many examples to counter.

Diablo 3 when it first came out had legitimately terribly core decisions. Auction house was ass, the itemization design was ass, the difficulty progression was ass, the character customization/stats were ass etc. The game has sold like 20 million to date, gets reviewed well and still has people clamoring for more. It took them 2+ years of constant patch releases to make this game serviceable.

Marvel Heroes also started out with horrendous design decisions on top of horrendous design decisions. They basically had to soft reboot that game recently but now it's also a decent game that enjoys decent success.

Don't even get me started on FF14.


Point is that we don't live in a day and age where the initial design of a game matters that much because it's a fluid process. Game mechanics can change, design decisions can change over time. PSASBR is no exception, they can change the core mechanics if they wanted to but it was too late for them.

 

[The Last Emperor]

Yo Danny phantom

 

[darkblade77]

You missed the point completely. USF4 is not a bad game because of some bugs, just like Skullgirls is not a good game because of the lack of those issues. What actually matters is the fighting bit.

You're the one claiming that Mike Z's 'approach' to making fighting games somehow places emphasis on one aspect and not the other. This is nonsense.

 

[kirblar]

For every "bad game design" example you come up with that didn't succeed I can think of two to three times as many examples to counter.

Diablo 3 when it first came out had legitimately terribly core decisions. Auction house was ass, the itemization design was ass, the difficulty progression was ass, the character customization/stats were ass etc. The game has sold like 20 million to date, gets reviewed well and still has people clamoring for more. It took them 2+ years of constant patch releases to make this game serviceable.

Marvel Heroes also started out with horrendous design decisions on top of horrendous design decisions. They basically had to soft reboot that game recently but now it's also a decent game that enjoys decent success.

Don't even get me started on FF14.

Point is that we don't live in a day and age where the initial design of a game matters that much because it's a fluid process. Game mechanics can change, design decisions can change over time. PSASBR is no exception, they can change the core mechanics if they wanted to but it was too late for them.

But had a sequel to D3 come out that was just more of the same path- it wouldn't have sold. You can definitely succeed in spite of yourself for a time, but the issues will come up to bite you. Soft reboots are a great thing- for troubled titles (heck, UNIB vanilla was apparently not so hot) but not every IP/franchise is going to have a buffer large enough to survive needing to do it.

 

[toddhunter]

You're the one claiming that Mike Z's 'approach' to making fighting games somehow places emphasis on one aspect and not the other. This is nonsense.

It was actually in reference to Mike Z's comments on development approaches and linking it to actual results. So I don't really know where you are coming from.

 

[darkblade77]

It was actually in reference to Mike Z's comments on development approaches. So I don't really know where you are coming from.

I think the issue is Mike Z has a different definition of "bad" to what really matters.

USF4 is so "bad", we had an amazing EVO played with near 2k people and... any actual problems? I can't remember any.

Even if it does have some issues, it is still an amazing fighting game to actually play. Skullgirls might not have these technical issues which is a good thing. But if his approach results in something that is dead boring to play? In my eyes he is the one who has a lot more to learn.

This is where I am coming from.

As a software engineer, making sure your engine is technically solid and flexible is exactly what you want to do for a designer, so you'd have to elaborate just what about his development approach he's described in the interview would lead to a game that is 'boring to play'.

 

[toddhunter]

so you'd have to elaborate just what about his development approach he's described in the interview would lead to a game that is 'boring to play'.

The results?

 

[Lostconfused]

A game having bugs is not a problem of the game designers/developers its the problem of the Q&A team.

The QA team does not fix the bugs, so it's actually not their fault if there are bugs or problems left in the finished product.

Unless of course the QA team failed to find and report those bugs, that's a different issue from finding and allocating resources to bug fixing.

 

[toddhunter]

The QA team does not fix the bugs, so it's actually not their fault if there are bugs or problems left in the finished product.

It is if they don't find them.

But in reality I imagine it was something like this:

Capcom execs: Is USF4 ready to ship?
Combofiend + Haunts: Not really. We could use a couple more months to iron out some issues we found.
Capcom execs: Are they issues people will really worry about or can we patch later?
Combofiend + Haunts: Well, they probably will not be a big deal, but Mike Z might call our game bad and a youtube glitch video might get 2-300 views.
Capcom execs: Who is Mike Z? For that matter, who are you two guys again? How did you get in this meeting?
Combofiend + Haunts: Game is good to go.