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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 26 - Feb 1 | Zaibatschu

K

Kimosabae

Banned
I can't search the Internet for a Wong SF4 comeback atm, or think of anything off-hand, but I'd be willing eat serious crow if no one can find at least two examples.
 
N

Nyoro SF

Member
MajinSweet4 said:
Personally, as a big Souls fan, a fighting game guy and as someone who has tried to get into Monster Hunter a few times, I feel MH just doesn't respect my time. The games have too much busy work for my tastes, and getting certain armor sets or upgrades is too much of a grind for me. In Souls, as long as you're good you can basically do whatever you want and get whatever you want minus a few exceptions. (That I usually ignore)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I heard many times that MH has a grindy system before you get to the actual "game" and I'm too old for that shit and was an immediate turn off.

Souls definitely didn't feel that way. No grinding necessary whatsoever unless you really want to max out all of your weapons and armor in inventory for some reason, it's very easy to get souls and titanite in that game. Much more focused on testing your skill rather than forcing you to go to the grind farm like many other time-padded games I'd rather not mention. You can beat the whole game without leveling up once if you play your cards right which is just incredible.
 
B

Busaiku

Member
What do you mean?
In Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, there's like an hour long tutorial or so, where you hunt some weaker stuff, but you can get right into hunting big monsters right after that.

I think Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate even made that tutorial phase completely optional.
 
ShinMaruku

ShinMaruku

Member
When I hear x is wack I want somebody to elaborate why and what would be better. Only really issue I have with TAC is it's a gamble but they could easily fix that by removing the breaker or you can remove it. But hey I don't know much about the game.
 
M

MajinSweet4

Member
Nyoro SF said:
Yeah, I heard many times that MH has a grindy system before you get to the actual "game" and I'm too old for that shit and was an immediate turn off.

Souls definitely didn't feel that way. No grinding necessary whatsoever unless you really want to max out all of your weapons and armor in inventory for some reason, it's very easy to get souls and titanite in that game. Much more focused on testing your skill rather than forcing you to go to the grind farm like many other time-padded games I'd rather not mention. You can beat the whole game without leveling up once if you play your cards right which is just incredible.
Click to expand...

SL1 in Souls isn't really all that hard. Now if you want to get crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3WEHVkJzo
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I have seen a bunch of Justin Rufus comebacks and almost all of them involved some form of move into Ultra.

Hell I am pretty sure there are a couple of them in the Sanford vs Justin set.
 
B

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
MajinSweet4 said:
SL1 in Souls isn't really all that hard. Now if you want to get crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3WEHVkJzo
Click to expand...

Man, I miss Demon's Souls... That boss made me run for my life the first time I fought it.

Dahbomb said:
I have seen a bunch of Justin Rufus comebacks and almost all of them involved some form of move into Ultra.

Hell I am pretty sure there are a couple of them in the Sanford vs Justin set.
Click to expand...

Justin has made a bunch of comebacks in SF with Rufus, I just don't find it as exciting. Sure my mind goes blank off of some of the stuff he does off of hype but Mahvel makes me go into a seizure induced coma.
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
M

MajinSweet4

Member
BakedYams said:
Man, I miss Demon's Souls... That boss made me run for my life the first time I fought it.
Click to expand...

No reason to miss it, game never went anywhere, And if it's the online community you're worried about being gone, the community does events every once and a while where we all go back at the same time.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
ShinMaruku said:
When I hear x is wack I want somebody to elaborate why and what would be better. Only really issue I have with TAC is it's a gamble but they could easily fix that by removing the breaker or you can remove it. But hey I don't know much about the game.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about XF or TACs?

I gave my defense for XF as a design philosophy in a team VS game but I don't think in its current state it's a good mechanic (if that makes sense). What Kimo said is some what true, XF giving the losing player so much power that a 1 on 3 comeback is EXPECTED is a problem. XF2/XF3 are over tuned (XF1 is 100% fine, it gives enough of a boost to kill one character which makes the risk/reward ratio appropiate) in both stats given and duration. It becomes pretty gross when stacked with boost supers like Vergil's Devil Trigger which turns XF3 stats into XF5 stats. Of course that's a glitch but even then the later XFs are over tuned where making comebacks is easier than it should be.

Even some of the more staunch fans of MVC3 have a hard time justifying TACs in their current state. The philosophy behind TAC was to give every character an aerial mix up option (something that would normally be exclusive to aerial characters) and allow low damage characters to tag in higher damage but slower characters to deal more damage. It also allows for some synergies and stuff like allowing Frank West to lvl5.

That's the idea behind TAC from a design point of view... now the problems. TACs by themselves are a superior reset option because it's a SAFE 3 way mix up. Most mix ups in MVC3 are 2 way mix ups with some of the more obscene ones being 3 or more. Some of these aren't safe and can be blown up with an appropriate read... Reading a TAC allows a break that resets neutral and minimal damage to the offender (it might as well not exist). The two downsides to TACs to an actual resest is that you switch characters and the damage is scaled.

The damage scale would've been fine to make it not over powered but two things about TACs you should know... succeeding a TAC gives the other player either more meter or it takes meter away from the defender. This creates a weird meter situation where the player going for TACs has way more meter in the match to work with.

And 2nd but most problematic element of TAC is that hit stun scaling is ignored until BOTH players touch the ground. With some manipulation its possible to get INFINITES off of TACs. Infinites has two major problems off of TACs.... it makes the drawback of damage scaling irrelevant as characters hit by TACs will die from an infinite. The other problem of infinites is that they guarantee 5 bars because of the # of hits.

If you are going for resests why the hell would you go for a normal reset over a TAC into infinite? A TAC has mathematically more chance of landing, is safer, leads into an infinite and max meter gain? This has resulted in the already low reset/oki game of MVC3 to become practically non existent in teams that have characters capable of doing practical infinites (ie Doom).


Some people state that removing infinites would fix this problem but it won't, it will just make Doom stronger. Before TAC infinites were discovered Doom had the MarlinPie "swag" combos which allowed for a big ass combo before Doom landed which was far above any other character. The meter gain was high and damage was high so it was like a mini TAC infinite. It would make Doom stronger and remove some gimmick teams plus Phoenix from the meta.


The real fix to TACs is to remove them or rework them. Most of the reworks I have heard would make them so bad that it would be better to remove them which I am for. There's a hidden TAC mechanic ALREADY in the game that was supposed to be the actual TAC before they implemented the current one and it's far better. For one meter you get to TAC into a character but the scaling continues as is (no ignoring of hit stun). There is no guessing involved and no chance of new form infinites.... it's basically a multi character combo that is meter heavy (inferior to stuff like Nova, crumple stun, raw tag to Strange).
 
ShinMaruku

ShinMaruku

Member
Dahbomb said:
Are you talking about XF or TACs?

I gave my defense for XF as a design philosophy in a team VS game but I don't think in its current state it's a good mechanic (if that makes sense). What Kimo said is some what true, XF giving the losing player so much power that a 1 on 3 comeback is EXPECTED is a problem. XF2/XF3 are over tuned (XF1 is 100% fine, it gives enough of a boost to kill one character which makes the risk/reward ratio appropiate) in both stats given and duration. It becomes pretty gross when stacked with boost supers like Vergil's Devil Trigger which turns XF3 stats into XF5 stats. Of course that's a glitch but even then the later XFs are over tuned where making comebacks is easier than it should be.

Even some of the more staunch fans of MVC3 have a hard time justifying TACs in their current state. The philosophy behind TAC was to give every character an aerial mix up option (something that would normally be exclusive to aerial characters) and allow low damage characters to tag in higher damage but slower characters to deal more damage. It also allows for some synergies and stuff like allowing Frank West to lvl5.

That's the idea behind TAC from a design point of view... now the problems. TACs by themselves are a superior reset option because it's a SAFE 3 way mix up. Most mix ups in MVC3 are 2 way mix ups with some of the more obscene ones being 3 or more. Some of these aren't safe and can be blown up with an appropriate read... Reading a TAC allows a break that resets neutral and minimal damage to the offender (it might as well not exist). The two downsides to TACs to an actual resest is that you switch characters and the damage is scaled.

The damage scale would've been fine to make it not over powered but two things about TACs you should know... succeeding a TAC gives the other player either more meter or it takes meter away from the defender. This creates a weird meter situation where the player going for TACs has way more meter in the match to work with.

And 2nd but most problematic element of TAC is that hit stun scaling is ignored until BOTH players touch the ground. With some manipulation its possible to get INFINITES off of TACs. Infinites has two major problems off of TACs.... it makes the drawback of damage scaling irrelevant as characters hit by TACs will die from an infinite. The other problem of infinites is that they guarantee 5 bars because of the # of hits.

If you are going for resests why the hell would you go for a normal reset over a TAC into infinite? A TAC has mathematically more chance of landing, is safer, leads into an infinite and max meter gain? This has resulted in the already low reset/oki game of MVC3 to become practically non existent in teams that have characters capable of doing practical infinites (ie Doom).


Some people state that removing infinites would fix this problem but it won't, it will just make Doom stronger. Before TAC infinites were discovered Doom had the MarlinPie "swag" combos which allowed for a big ass combo before Doom landed which was far above any other character. The meter gain was high and damage was high so it was like a mini TAC infinite. It would make Doom stronger and remove some gimmick teams plus Phoenix from the meta.


The real fix to TACs is to remove them or rework them. Most of the reworks I have heard would make them so bad that it would be better to remove them which I am for. There's a hidden TAC mechanic ALREADY in the game that was supposed to be the actual TAC before they implemented the current one and it's far better. For one meter you get to TAC into a character but the scaling continues as is (no ignoring of hit stun). There is no guessing involved and no chance of new form infinites.... it's basically a multi character combo that is meter heavy (inferior to stuff like Nova, crumple stun, raw tag to Strange).
Click to expand...
Now this is the type of post I like to see why x and y are shit.
My whole thing with TAC is just remove them.

X-factor is a more hairy thing, I find come back mechanics ideal in fighting games unless there are better teaching tools. For example it allows people to hide their bad ness and keep at the game like the SF4 and KOF example, people think one is easier, but deep down they are the same, sf just allows people to not see their badness and power through and learn some shit. The excessive scaling on some Xfactors was bound to happen with some of the power up moves in this game, Capcom should have seen that coming.
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
Nyoro SF said:
Yeah, I heard many times that MH has a grindy system before you get to the actual "game" and I'm too old for that shit and was an immediate turn off.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you misheard or mixed up some related concepts, closest notions I can think of to what you're describing are
1) that it takes about 10 hours to decide if you like the game or not (which is still true, but the demo has online so grab some FGW players and let's hunt)
2) that the beginning of single player is boring tutorials instead of cool hunts (still true but they keep making strides to fix that)
3) that multiplayer progression is gated behind grinding (the last time this was true was for MH3)

In short, play multiplayer
 
C

CountBlack

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
^Stay free, CountBlackule
Click to expand...

image.php


anime got you?
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Kimosabae said:
I can't search the Internet for a Wong SF4 comeback atm, or think of anything off-hand, but I'd be willing eat serious crow if no one can find at least two examples.
Click to expand...

I remember watching tournaments where it happened, maybe not as dramatic as other games but it's occured. Justin Wong vs Dieminion at KIT GF 2014 or 2013 I thiink
 
C

Coffeeling

Member
Kimosabae said:
People get hype for Wong comebacks because he has a knack for doing this across the genre, in games that don't have mechanics in place to specifically facilitate a comeback process.

*SNIP*

If your anchor touches the ground with XF3, and your opponent lacks XF, the game is in your favor, no matter how many characters they have. It's too dependent on XF as a resource.
Click to expand...

One thing that gets me hyped for Justin's MvC3 comebacks is how they often happen - it's not DT XF3 Vergil here, and even discounting the difference between Akuma and Vergil, he often wins from absurd resource deficits - how often has he dismantled half a team or the entire team with Akuma alone, X Factor burnt already? That's the thing. He does that shit when he has no right to win. XF3 anchors yeah whatever. But those are not the insanity that's being talked about here.
 
M

Manbig

Member
X-Factor come backs are about as hype deflating as Daniel Bryan's elimination from the Royal Rumble last night.
 
S

sikvod00

Banned
Justin's SF4 career is sub-par compared to Marvel. IMO, his best accomplishment isn't even winning a U.S. major in that game, but eliminating Fuudo at EVO (2013?). I know it was also big victory for him since Fuudo was up 2-0 against him in tourneys already. Beating THE Fei-long with a character most in Japan have given up on is impressive. Let's also not forget that he was mainly focusing on Marvel by that point. :3
 
I

Infinite

Member
sikvod00 said:
Justin's SF4 career is sub-par compared to Marvel. IMO, his best accomplishment isn't even winning a U.S. major in that game, but eliminating Fuudo at EVO (2013?). I know it was also big victory for him since Fuudo was up 2-0 against him in tourneys already. Beating THE Fei-long with a character most in Japan have given up on is impressive. Let's also not forget that he was mainly focusing on Marvel by that point. :3
Click to expand...
I think he best mago that Evo and that match was fucking enternaining as all hell
 
Z

Zissou

Member
Glad to wake up and see so much marvel talk ^_^
LONG LIVE THE KING

Karsticles said:
You don't create or define your character at all in Chrono Trigger outside of equipment. In most classic RPGs, you also don't influence story progression, since progression is linear. On the other hand, a shooter could let you create a custom character and have a responsive plot.
Click to expand...

And I don't think Chrono Trigger is an RPG :p
It's just a linear game with menu-driven combat.
I say this as a fan of the game!
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Zissou said:
And I don't think Chrono Trigger is an RPG :p
It's just a linear game with menu-driven combat.
I say this as a fan of the game!
Click to expand...

must be why Chrono Trigger is the GOAT, since its not animu JRPG trash like Persona 4 ol' 60 hour of bullshit lookin' ass game
 
A

Azure J

Member
Slamtastic said:
tumblr_niqmkbrVqB1u9o7gzo2_500.gif
Click to expand...

How recent was this? I heard the line but didn't know if it was something that happened recently or just got dug up again.

To be completely honest, I get where he's coming from but I quite honestly immediately disregard the opinion of anyone throwing entire things (in this case mediums) under a bus because it's not to their ideal. Find the good or make it yourself and stop bitching. :p
 
G

GorillaWithDandruff

Member
YAMS DID IT.

Karsticles said:
MH3U is a fantastic game. All is forgiven!

It really blows my mind that the Souls games are so beloved while MH is ignored in the west. MH is just better Souls combat with more variety and a focus on bosses over dungeons.
Click to expand...

Personally, it's not so much Souls' combat and mechanics that get me but the atmosphere. That shit is so godlike it ain't even funny. MH can't compare.

ViewtifulJC said:
must be why Chrono Trigger is the GOAT, since its not animu JRPG trash like Persona 4 ol' 60 hour of bullshit lookin' ass game
Click to expand...

JC u had me but then.....breh.....why you doin this..
 
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