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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 26 - Feb 1 | Zaibatschu
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
shaowebb
Member
The loudness and versatility of the tools designed for the cast is what I refer to by "more marvel than marvel" when I talk of ASW. I look at the cast and each one seems to come out of the woodwork with something crazier than the last and the ways you can use those tools just says "marvel" to me. Things can turn around in a match fast in ASW, setups and resets can come out of nowhere and I see the movement and such as just something that feels very fast and exciting. It doesn't matter to me that its not team based fighting at ASW...its the breakdown of each character that gives me that vibe that says "marvel will try this someday on a character".
Thats all I mean by that. Carl Clover's Doll, Tager's Magnetism, Kokonoe's bullshit (lol), Lambda's zoning, Venom's ricochet projectiles, Ky's knockdown game, Bullet's crazy ass lockon command grabs and their heatup increases, Platinum the Trinity's roulette of running specials that change that you can use a little at a time or blow through quick to get to the next one...its all insane and makes me think of the kind of "we'll try anything" shit that I see in Marvel with cast like Dante, MODOK, Phoenix Wright, and others.
I see ASW as emphasizing the craziest shit they can think of and that sort of "fuck it lets try to do something fast, furious and crazy" mindset is how I define Marvel as a series in terms of movesets.
Please tell me more. What is it that isn't fun for you? The system mechanics? The atmosphere? The cast being so diverse they each really need an explanation? Please...I'm needing all the negative fine details you can give me. I'm working on fighting game stuff long term now and I need to have both sides of any story I can get here. I know my perspective but I really need to know what turnoffs exist for folks who aren't into the ASW stuff to get an idea of how mixed some reactions could be to certain ideas.
Did someone say ASW music.
Awwwwww shit here goes
GGXXAC+R - Baiken's Theme - Momentary Life
GGXXAC+R - Order-Sol vs. Ky - Keep the Flag Flying
GGXXAC+R - Eddie's Theme - Feel A Fear
BBCP - Hakumen vs. Ragna - Black & White
BBCP - Six Heroes
Ok I'm too lazy to link more
In before some random ASW employee with way too much time on their hands flags music from a decade old game
Awwwwww shit here goes
GGXXAC+R - Baiken's Theme - Momentary Life
GGXXAC+R - Order-Sol vs. Ky - Keep the Flag Flying
GGXXAC+R - Eddie's Theme - Feel A Fear
BBCP - Hakumen vs. Ragna - Black & White
BBCP - Six Heroes
Ok I'm too lazy to link more
In before some random ASW employee with way too much time on their hands flags music from a decade old game
Karsticles
Member
Well it doesn't matter to YOU that it's not a team based fighter but it does to me and other people who associate that with Marvel and why we don't think of BB or GG as "Marvel" games. That's what makes Marvel unique and stand out more so than it's crazy cast which to be honest a lot of fighting games are starting to have now like Skullgirls, Injustice, Killer Instinct and Smash.
There is no shortage of games with crazy characters with crazy mechanics but there's a shortage of team based fighters with assists.
BB takes it to a whole different level with character mechanics where it feels like playing a new game every time you play a new character. GG is more reserved in that aspect, it's not as hard jumping from Ky to Sol for example yet both have their individual traits. That might be interesting to some and off putting to others.
Marvel also has far less "characters that clearly look like anime tropes" so there is definitely the art style that comes into play. This is more so a complaint against BB though.
I don't have much experience with ASW games so it would be unfair for me to say "this part I think is unfun and more fun in another game", I can only quantify what I find fun in Marvel. When you get hit by Pipe in Marvel 3 you KNOW it's real. When you get hit by Bionic Arm... you KNOW it's real. When you get hit by Sentinel fly into Captain Commando assist call into Rocket punch.... YOU KNOW IT'S REAL! The impact of the hits feels amazing, the flow of the combos also feels good even if you are doing the same combo over and over again. It's not just the combos but the hypers as well... hitting some with AHVB feels so fucking good. The sound effects are amazing, the movement is great, the visual effects are great. Even the cheap stuff feels good to pull off because everything is so high damage and hard hitting with exaggerated effects. And then you add Assists, Hypers, DHCs into the mix... AAAWW YEEEAA!!!!
There is no shortage of games with crazy characters with crazy mechanics but there's a shortage of team based fighters with assists.
BB takes it to a whole different level with character mechanics where it feels like playing a new game every time you play a new character. GG is more reserved in that aspect, it's not as hard jumping from Ky to Sol for example yet both have their individual traits. That might be interesting to some and off putting to others.
Marvel also has far less "characters that clearly look like anime tropes" so there is definitely the art style that comes into play. This is more so a complaint against BB though.
This is so hard to quantify and put into words.
I don't have much experience with ASW games so it would be unfair for me to say "this part I think is unfun and more fun in another game", I can only quantify what I find fun in Marvel. When you get hit by Pipe in Marvel 3 you KNOW it's real. When you get hit by Bionic Arm... you KNOW it's real. When you get hit by Sentinel fly into Captain Commando assist call into Rocket punch.... YOU KNOW IT'S REAL! The impact of the hits feels amazing, the flow of the combos also feels good even if you are doing the same combo over and over again. It's not just the combos but the hypers as well... hitting some with AHVB feels so fucking good. The sound effects are amazing, the movement is great, the visual effects are great. Even the cheap stuff feels good to pull off because everything is so high damage and hard hitting with exaggerated effects. And then you add Assists, Hypers, DHCs into the mix... AAAWW YEEEAA!!!!
Professor Beef
Banned
I see no reason to.
shaowebb
Member
I feel ya. I can see folks having issues with the large leap in mechanics per character everytime they try someone new. Its why I brought that one up myself as well. The anime thing I know will always be divisive so thats another thing I was aware of.
The tag thing I agree on...their is a shortage. I still see ASW stuff as more marvel than marvel though. Im all about assists and team building and all that which is core to Marvel, but the pacing of a match is something I see between the two games thats pretty close. Take any marvel match down to the anchors with the rest of the team gone...at that point with the rosters and how each character plays as an individual I see ASW stuff as crazier than Marvel is while maintaining that kind of fast and intense feel.
If ASW did a tag fighter it'd have me incredibly excited because the assist aspect being absent from their matches is the one thing I need to really cement the feel I get from those matches that I get from Marvel.
Take it how you want. Disagree if you want. Its cool. We each define the games we play differently to varying degrees. I'd just like you to picture a match in an ASW title like Chrono Phantazma or Xrd though if it was tag based with assists like Marvel. There are a lot of simlarities in match pacing and intensity is how I view it...they just need to incorporate the team building aspect someday to a game.
Honestly the market as a whole needs more tag fighters.
The point of marvel is true team dynamics and team synergy. Without that, a game cannot be a marvel replacement. Also, to me, marvel is defined by verticality/aerial movement, which something else that no other game really does or tries to do. GG is only similar to marvel in that both games are fast.
If ASW did a BB game with MVC3 3v3 team dynamic game play then no one would play it because it would be the TTT2 of anime games. Too many mechanics to learn just to play one team, it would be a huge barrier to entry. And knowing ASW they would add even more team mechanics to further make it confusing as all hell. And to make a 3v3 game really work you need a big cast, a cast of under 30 is just not sufficient which is a problem with Skullgirls.
MVC characters are less crazy and more straightforward for a reason... they expect you to learn at least 3 characters out of 50 to be able to play one team.
MVC characters are less crazy and more straightforward for a reason... they expect you to learn at least 3 characters out of 50 to be able to play one team.
Yeah- marvel was very obviously and smartly designed from the ground up with the idea that people need to be able to play tons of characters at at least a basic level w/o massive time investment to allow for maximum experimentation and to ease the inherent barrier to entry that is learning at least 3 characters to even get your foot in the door.
shaowebb
Member
Hmmm...this is worth taking note of. The level of characters requiring heavy specialization in ASW is higher than most other fighters. Putting a team aspect on that could make it daunting to folks.
The rest of what you said though makes me curious...a lot of the "feels real" stuff makes me think of the visual aspects. Anime aside I'm thinking of the way the opponents react more than the tropes of how they were drawn when I say this. In ASW titles like Blaz Blue the way characters "sell" being hit by a combo isn't the same as in Marvel.
Take a Terumi combo...just look one up and look at the way characters act. The victim is often frozen in place for long periods...no real recoil between the hits like in marvel where they flinch repeatedly several times during a combo. Just a lot of freezing in place and then complete somersaults which doesn't occur from bodies in marvel. Also the way characters sell their attacks in ASW often involves the person attacking holding a pose for a long period after throwing an attack. In marvel you just sort of snap out the moves rapid fire. They have an extension of a limb and then a retraction afterwards without a lot of overselling the limb. It happens on some stuff, but not nearly as many moves as in Blaz Blue or Guilty Gear. Its an animation thing. Marvel typically only has folks hold poses for their biggest moves like hypers or some very particular supers.
Also the types of things that occur in combos is different. I see in Marvel a lot of OTG and fly unfly stuff. In other words a lot of you chasing the body by moving after it. In ASW I see lot of bodies moving but often times the character stays in one general spot and flings the body around themselves several times without the pursuit aspect that Marvel has.
I think I'm starting to get an idea on a few things I'll need to consider during animating moves concerning smooth in and smooth in/out, follow thru and arcs thanks to these things you guys are mentioning.
Keep the hate coming. I need to know. Just say whatever is on your mind even if you cant pin it down whats eating you about ASW. I find patterns and notice stuff the more I hear and any feedback is good.
Other than the smaller roster size, might one say that the other problem with Skullgirls is the lack of straightforward playstyles among the cast? The majority of the characters seem to lean more on the technical side of things, lacking more simplistic characters suited to easing in new players that Arc fighters such as P4AU and even GGXrd both manage to provide (I guess Fukua might count in SG's case). I had been wondering if that might have had something to do with why not all that many people seem to play SG.
I don't mean "real" as in it's more authentic to real life... I mean real as in the move looks like it hits hard and feels like a super human being is delivering a blow (so you FEEL the blows). Characters get thrown around like crazy, spinning and flying around. It's not just for the physical attacks but for the projectile based attacks too. When Dormammu does his Chaotic Flame it really feels like he's roasting someone or when Magneto Squeezes someone it really feels like they are being crushed by the gravitational pull of a god damn black hole.
SF does it better than most games especially SFV despite being a more grounded game. The way the characters reel back when they get hit or when the block is some next level shit. When Ryu does his counter hit punch damn that looks meaty as fuck.
SF does it better than most games especially SFV despite being a more grounded game. The way the characters reel back when they get hit or when the block is some next level shit. When Ryu does his counter hit punch damn that looks meaty as fuck.
Also a factor. A lot of people are put off by the cast being all-female with the exception of two, with the other guy still not out yet. And for anyone not bothered by that, the art style tends to be polarizing.
shaowebb
Member
For record I'm super into quirky oddball characters with unique system mechanics. I hadn't considered that the lack of straightforward stuff can turn away folks from a game though since I see that as the juicy stuff to look for.
This is why opinions are good here. It always pays to consider as many perspectives as possible. I still fully intend on making unique system mechanic cast in what I'm involved in, but this definitely has me wanting to check myself more often when my instinct is to come up with a new mechanic just for a character. Its also going to help reign me in a LOT on animating soon. I'm a Kamen Rider guy...I know my animation style is to hold poses. Gotta keep that in check or I'm going to miss the rhythm of combos I hope to have.
Oh that. Hell I already knew about that part. I was a wrestler and selling is second nature when it comes to posing victims lol. Its not what you do, but how hard the other guy sells it that makes a move memorable is one of the biggest things I've always had drilled into me so I already had ya covered on the poses and such.
But your comment earlier did have me notice a few things on frame holds, follow through and pursuit mentality during combos though. Keep stuff like that coming folks. It goes further than you'd expect. I'm still waiting for Beef to go off on some ASW to get a feel for more stuff from other perspectives.
Gotta go get some sleep for now, but I'll pop in tomorrow to see if I can't break down some patterns and observations from folks into some stuff I might need to use in my work.
This is why opinions are good here. It always pays to consider as many perspectives as possible. I still fully intend on making unique system mechanic cast in what I'm involved in, but this definitely has me wanting to check myself more often when my instinct is to come up with a new mechanic just for a character. Its also going to help reign me in a LOT on animating soon. I'm a Kamen Rider guy...I know my animation style is to hold poses. Gotta keep that in check or I'm going to miss the rhythm of combos I hope to have.
I don't mean "real" as in it's more authentic to real life... I mean real as in the move looks like it hits hard and feels like a super human being is delivering a blow (so you FEEL the blows). Characters get thrown around like crazy, spinning and flying around. It's not just for the physical attacks but for the projectile based attacks too. When Dormammu does his Chaotic Flame it really feels like he's roasting someone or when Magneto Squeezes someone it really feels like they are being crushed by the gravitational pull of a god damn black hole.
SF does it better than most games especially SFV despite being a more grounded game. The way the characters reel back when they get hit or when the block is some next level shit. When Ryu does his counter hit punch damn that looks meaty as fuck.
Oh that. Hell I already knew about that part. I was a wrestler and selling is second nature when it comes to posing victims lol. Its not what you do, but how hard the other guy sells it that makes a move memorable is one of the biggest things I've always had drilled into me so I already had ya covered on the poses and such.
But your comment earlier did have me notice a few things on frame holds, follow through and pursuit mentality during combos though. Keep stuff like that coming folks. It goes further than you'd expect. I'm still waiting for Beef to go off on some ASW to get a feel for more stuff from other perspectives.
Gotta go get some sleep for now, but I'll pop in tomorrow to see if I can't break down some patterns and observations from folks into some stuff I might need to use in my work.
Yeah I was about to say... some people only play the straightforward, "boring" looking fighter. There are people who play the Ryus, the Scorpions, the Sols, the Wolverines/Weskers. They don't like quirky/weird stuff. If your game is filled with quirky/weird characters then you put off these people... it's just as bad as having a game filled with boring, standard characters.
I am sort of the same... I rarely go for the quirkiest characters in the game and generally lean towards the more standard, less gimmicks character.
Also that SFV gif was a bad example, for reason I thought I had linked the one here he does the counter hit punch and you see Chun Li reeling back.
I am sort of the same... I rarely go for the quirkiest characters in the game and generally lean towards the more standard, less gimmicks character.
Also that SFV gif was a bad example, for reason I thought I had linked the one here he does the counter hit punch and you see Chun Li reeling back.
Marvel does a good job of making the characters unique in ways that are easily grasped quickly. Once you know Doom can dash cancel all of his normals, it's easy to start extrapolating what that can allow. Dormammu's charging spells give him unique flavor in an understandable way. The quirky character-unique stuff in arcsys games is quirky/extreme to the point where it'd be more a hinderence than a benefit in a team-based game.
irfaanator
Banned
I usually gravitate to the hard using characters b/c idk, somehow they're the coolest looking. That and I like a bit of a challenge/uniqueness in who I'm playing versus who everybody is playing
That Dude John
Member
GorillaWithDandruff
Member
Lol Skullgirls is like tailor made for those type a dudes that literally only like female characters in any game, just cuz they're chicks, like not even sexual related (although sometimes it is). I've still yet to find a term that describes what I'm talking about. idk.
i manly play female fighters, i think the only male fighter I main is Johnny in GGXX but can't stand skullgirls because it's that type of game that puts them in your face and say "look how sexy these anime chicks are!"
EDIT: and I dislike the artstyle
direct_quote
Member
Yah definitely prevented me from ever getting the game. But it attracted some kind of small hardcore fan base so....yah..
KidA Seven
Member
Nuki is one of those players
call_kotaku
Member
Actually, lets all take a moment to appreciate how good aesthetically (not console war "graphix" bullshit, but actual aesthetics) the overwhelming majority of fighting games have been. Looking back, it's one of the reasons I got into fighting games, just being amazed by the sprites in SF2, by how awesome the KOF characters looked (when I was an emo ass teen), by how beautiful the SF3 games were, etc. I liked fighting games before I even tried to properly play them, and aesthetics is one of the reasons I stuck around even though other genres probably better suited my temperament. The amount of character development you can get just from a couple of animation quirks is pretty awesome and it's probably why most of my favorite videogame characters are from fighting games, even though most of them have next to no story or narrative written around them.
Even today, outside of notable exceptions (NRS games), the quality of animation and art design in fighting games is still outstanding. Even though the visual design of MVC3 is questionable, the animation is fantastic, and however much you dislike anime, anime fighting games have better animation than most animes nowadays. SF4 (and 5) seem visually dry compared to other fighting games and other Street Fighters, but it's still way more interesting than most games nowadays.
Even today, outside of notable exceptions (NRS games), the quality of animation and art design in fighting games is still outstanding. Even though the visual design of MVC3 is questionable, the animation is fantastic, and however much you dislike anime, anime fighting games have better animation than most animes nowadays. SF4 (and 5) seem visually dry compared to other fighting games and other Street Fighters, but it's still way more interesting than most games nowadays.
KidA Seven
Member
One of my biggest wishes for SF5 is better art for the stages. SF4 was such a let down compared to previous capcom titles.
you nailed it, man. that's always been something I loved about fighting games. it's cool how individual moves can help develop a character too.
r/kappa found the evo 2016 roster
No Super Smash Flash?
Kappa
It's really amazing how much I love Guilty Gear's music (and how long I've known of it) despite only really playing it with Xrd and some demo mode runs of AC+R on 360 a year or two ago. :lol
Nice
Coffeeling
Member
This is objectively wrong because Melee exists.
I believe moeblobs chucking strawberry grenades and everything being OTT as hell has something to do with it.
Elphelt <3
I would really like to see character specific stages come back.
Professor Beef
Banned
I like Sm4sh more than Melee. Opinions, etc.
sixteen-bit
Member
I agree, but bring back the fun ones like Overpass.
From what they showed of SF5, that stage is very dense, like the Yun and Yang stage from SF3 New Generation. I hope they continue with that.
chocolate disco
Neo Member
drawn by a fellow fg-enthusiast from Russia.
You can check his Tumblr there: http://boomito-boomov.tumblr.com/
Much more stuff on the DA-page If you are interested in: http://boomito-boomov.deviantart.com/
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
lol
KidA Seven
Member
I love the Yang night stage and that's kind of the reason why I like the stage in SF5. I want more urban stages because I have always enjoyed them.
I just don't like it to get too silly. I like the overpass stage too, but there should be a limit on those kind of stages. Have people act more normal as opposed to sf4 where it feels the game is telling you to focus on this silly character. The overpass stage worked because they're just kids acting like kids.
DOA fan meets and interviews Itagaki.
Some interesting stuff there, like Itagaki's view that fighting games run the risk of ending up like shmups.
Some interesting stuff there, like Itagaki's view that fighting games run the risk of ending up like shmups.
theprodigy
Member
Some people might blow up Itagaki for some of his statements but I thought some of the things he is saying is just the honest thoughts of an ordinary guy, both flawed and not.
No game developer wants to retread development forever.
sixteen-bit
Member
prolly why Suzuki bailed out of VF and Harada is doing so many other things now tbh
This was a very interesting read. Pretty cool of Itagaki to meet with a fan like this.
MiniBossBattle
Member
It was the chain combos with most character (LMHS-jMMHS) was a great starting point for beginners. I feel that people had a good enough time using these while just worrying about the team composition and assists.
Yeah he nailed it when describing DOA5. The game has no soul and feels too technical for what DOA was like before. I've given it a chance many times but it just doesn't have the magic that I thought DOA4 had.
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