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Fighting Games Weekly | June 25 - July 1
- Thread starter USD
- Start date
You need RSF. Not so much for the damage, but the threat that you 'can' use it. Otherwise there isn't much damage you can do and your opponents can just do stupid stuff to get out of the mix-ups.
Actually really useful SSF4 Makoto tech http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MONTY6GeE1M Always wanted to be good playing her, never really was.
Makoto has so much tech that it's a wonder that there aren't many american top players that play her.
Maybe they all think she's too derpy.
MiniBossBattle
Member
One of the best players on the east coast and he can't go to the biggest tournament of the year. He needs a steady job.
Fixed. I am shocked EMP doesn't stream EMP house.
Jaha breaking music copyright.
Makoto has so much tech that it's a wonder that there aren't many american top players that play her.
Maybe they all think she's too derpy.
They all want a reversal that is invincible through start up.
The Fanatiq vs Kai example is hardly apt because Fanatiq is way more adept at long set matches than small set matches. He would've lost to RayRay 2/3 too, he has always been a poor tournament performer until now.And yet you can look at those top players and say one is head and shoulders above another, and the superior player still has a very good chance of losing. Kai lost a ft10 against fanatiq who is a superior player(said as much himself and said he knew he'd lose if they played again). If there was no random element then the need to make tourneys 3/5 wouldn't be as prevalent now would it? Top players even acknowledge that there is a random element to the game, I said as much that the game isn't a fucking coin toss, what more you want?
The argument of Marvel 3/5 indicates is random is a poor one because that applies to every fighting game. Every fighting game benefits from longer sets you just have to prioritize based on time spent per game. One set of 3/5 Marvel is shorter than a set of 2/3 SF4 and WAY shorter than 2/3 KOF hence why it should be the tournament standard. Like I said, one match of Marvel is more equivalent to one round of a normal FG. I bet no one would want SF4 to be one match yet that game is played 2/3 rounds. Now you are going to tell me that Tekken 5/6/SCV are random because they are played 3/5 rounds?
Top players sing different tune about the game every other day. Most of what top player refer to as random in the game is more a lack of knowledge on some of the game's mechanics. Like when they get surprised that V Joe's Mach Speed beat out Bionic Arm when one cursory look at the frame data would've been enough to know why that happened. Or when they get happy birthday'd and they blame it on luck. This applies also to the way durability on fireballs work in the game which before Ultimate most pros didn't even know how it works until characters like Morrigan and Joe worked their way into the meta game. From the first day the game came out I have heard less and less each day about the game being "random" as more people understand the inner workings of the game.
I think it's more accurate to say that the game can be difficult to stay consistent in due to it's low margin of error or that it's generally very unforgiving with large momentum shifts in the game at the flip of a switch. I just think people especially the FG use the word random inappropriately especially when half of the time you sit down to talk to them about this random nature it turns out they are basically just referring to all that shit flying around and all the chaos that is hard to keep up with... which isn't random at all that's just the player's fault for not being able to keep up with the on screen action and that is a skillset you have to learn when playing Marvel.
Stabby McSter
Member
So X-Ray is now sponsored by Marvelous Customs, along with KBeast and Honzo Gonzo.
And yet you can look at those top players and say one is head and shoulders above another, and the superior player still has a very good chance of losing. Kai lost a ft10 against fanatiq who is a superior player(said as much himself and said he knew he'd lose if they played again). If there was no random element then the need to make tourneys 3/5 wouldn't be as prevalent now would it? Top players even acknowledge that there is a random element to the game, I said as much that the game isn't a fucking coin toss, what more you want?
I'm more inclined to believe that top players say that 3/5 is needed because of randomness is just lack of a better description for it. While I do believe that players can be random, 2/3 just doesn't justify the time needed to download a player, especially a random player, at the marvel pace. 3/5 doesn't necessarily make it better but it helps the top players sleep at night when they get knocked out by super skrulls. Lol.
So yeah, I just think the 3/5 is there to protect egos.
Anyway, you guys pretty much nailed it and expanded on the point I was trying to make. This was an interesting discussion.
For more discussion on Marvel, refer to the Marvel GAF thread. We have discussions like these all the time.Anyway, you guys pretty much nailed it and expanded on the point I was trying to make. This was an interesting discussion.
Emperor Bohe
Member
i kinda wanna buy the old evo dvds. lol
They all want a reversal that is invincible through start up.
Yea you're probably right and it's understandable, mashing is pretty strong in sf4. invincible dp is sorta like the great equalizer. low level sf4 has a level of randomness that makes those kinda tools more necessary imo. Just the threat of an invincible dp I've seen mitigates your opponents tendencies of doing stupid shit.
i kinda wanna buy the old evo dvds. lol
If you buy a premium sub on SRK you can download the old DVDs from the site.
Emperor Bohe
Member
If you buy a premium sub on SRK you can download the old DVDs from the site.
oh snap..
oh snap..
In all honesty you're not missing out on anything super special by not having them/seeing them. Me and a friend bought some of them back when they were released (04 through to 08) and we never look at them. Most of the best matches are up on youtube at this point.
So X-Ray is now sponsored by Marvelous Customs, along with KBeast and Honzo Gonzo.
I know Honzo said he is going to CM, are X-Ray and K-Beast going?
For more discussion on Marvel, refer to the Marvel GAF thread. We have discussions like these all the time.
Yeah I was going to post it there but I figured that I could get less of a bias opinion here.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
What kind of leap of logic do you have to make for this question to make sense?If there was no random element then the need to make tourneys 3/5 wouldn't be as prevalent now would it?
It's hard to time. If you don't do it right the other fireball will hit you during recovery.heh i didn't know if you deflect morrigan with shadow servant grounded fireball with task the animation will let the one behind you pass right through you. guess this will help somewhat in countering morrigan.
Yeah I was going to post it there but I figured that I could get less of a bias opinion here.
I feel like when it comes to marvel, people in the OT all are pretty level headed and willing to have a reasonable calm debate while being knowledgable about the game. In threads like these and threads for majors, the sensible people who actually play the game and follow it closely are often drowned out by people that don't know what the fuck they're talking about and have never set foot in the mahvel OT.
Emperor Bohe
Member
In all honesty you're not missing out on anything super special by not having them/seeing them. Me and a friend bought some of them back when they were released (04 through to 08) and we never look at them. Most of the best matches are up on youtube at this point.
do you get anything else with an srk premium account? ive had an account there for years and have stopped posting... so I don't remember and I can't find a descriptive description
What kind of leap of logic do you have to make for this question to make sense?
It's hard to time. If you don't do it right the other fireball will hit you during recovery.
lol leap in logic....ok. If you don't see the correlation, then that's on you. I'm done.
To the guys talking Makoto in here:
Stop it. You're making it insanely hard not to pick up SSFIV harder than I have and I'm already scubbing it up in Marvel. :lol
IF I MIX IT WITH THE FAKE CROSS UP TECH FROM 6 DAYS AGO NOBODY CAN STOP ME
MUAHAUHUAHUAHUAHUAHUA
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Well, I'm not.lol leap in logic, I'm done.
If the number of matches played is irrelevant in games that aren't "random," then that means we could play a single-match set in Marvel (or SF, or KOF, or Tekken, or whatever) and the results would carry equal weight to 2-of-3, or 3-of-5, or first-to-10? The best player should always win the first game if they're truly the best player? Or score the first hit? Of course not. That's not how it works. There should be enough room for leeway, for the players to feel each other out and figure out each other's tendencies, and to "spend a round" experimenting to achieve that goal and get some important data to work with. It's more difficult to get away with that in 2-of-3 Marvel because one mistake in that game carries such a greater penalty than it does in other games. A mistake in SF4 might mean 30% of your life is gone, but your character doesn't lose any tools, you often have enough time to mount a comeback, and you have an extra round to try again. In Marvel, a single mistake might cost you a character (and thus an important assist/DHC/counter that's vital for your team), or 2 characters if it was a particularly bad mistake, and you don't get an extra round to shake that off. That's why people push for longer sets in that game; they want the ability to feel their opponent out and try out different tactics without the fear that they won't have the leeway to do it.
But what do I know? Please continue arguing about how a computer game with very distinct + explicit rules and very consistent tournament results is "random." You've certainly made a strong case so far.
Yeah, better to ask those more knowledgeable. Then again, there is still a bias, only the people who actually play the game are aware of all the extra bullshit as well.I feel like when it comes to marvel, people in the OT all are pretty level headed and willing to have a reasonable calm debate while being knowledgable about the game. In threads like these and threads for majors, the sensible people who actually play the game and follow it closely are often drowned out by people that don't know what the fuck they're talking about and have never set foot in the mahvel OT.
Often I feel like the FGW becomes a displaced Mahvel OT as well though. The recent infinite talk was spread across 3 threads, and would've been better contained in the OT because of it's minimal relevance in this thread IMO.
On the topic of balance... I don't know what people's yardsticks are for balance. I feel the game is significantly more difficult to judge balance in comparison to most fighting games because of the absolutely crucial element of the game which is team synergy. This is why tier lists for the most part are kind of dumb. The right character with the right team can be super effective, kind of invalidating the purpose of judging a character in isolation, making comparisons only for fun.
I think it's relatively balanced *right now* and there are a considerable amount of viable characters that everyone agrees upon, about half the cast. then I'd say 2/5 of the cast is debatably viable depending on who you ask, and the rest of the cast is significantly lacking in important areas of the game. With the game always developing, it's hard to pin down something solid, but if you read the Mahvel OT you know how often people call for nerfs and buffs to moves/characters when compared to other characters or moves. For instance, Iron Man has a Smart Bomb OTG assist that is just completely useless. Doesn't come out fast enough to even hit, let alone be practically useable. Shit like that is unnecessary, why would they put something like that in if it doesn't even fulfill it's purpose by design? Taking into account the stupendous amount of variables in an MvC game, UMvC3 is pretty reasonably balanced for the most part I'd say. Sorry if this sounds like I'm rambling, but these are my thoughts on it all.
mash st. mp.
Best strat (and button) ever.
Well, I'm not.
If the number of matches played is irrelevant in games that aren't "random," then that means we could play a single-match set in Marvel (or SF, or KOF, or Tekken, or whatever) and the results would carry equal weight to 2-of-3, or 3-of-5, or first-to-10? The best player should always win the first game if they're truly the best player? Or score the first hit? Of course not. That's not how it works. There should be enough room for leeway, for the players to feel each other out and figure out each other's tendencies, and to "spend a round" experimenting to achieve that goal and get some important data to work with. It's more difficult to get away with that in 2-of-3 Marvel because one mistake in that game carries such a greater penalty than it does in other games. A mistake in SF4 might mean 30% of your life is gone, but your character doesn't lose any tools, you often have enough time to mount a comeback, and you have an extra round to try again. In Marvel, a single mistake might cost you a character (and thus an important assist/DHC/counter that's vital for your team), or 2 characters if it was a particularly bad mistake, and you don't get an extra round to shake that off. That's why people push for longer sets in that game; they want the ability to feel their opponent out and try out different tactics without the fear that they won't have the leeway to do it.
But what do I know? Please continue arguing about how a computer game with very distinct + explicit rules and very consistent tournament results is "random." You've certainly made a strong case so far.
Didn't read your post. Sorry, not trying to be rude, just letting it be known that I have no interest in whatever it is you posted. All this defensiveness over my saying a game has a level of randomness. Imagine if I said it was random as fuck. Even sf4 has some level of random shit*looks at seth, fuerte, abel mak. Jesus.
Best strat (and button) ever.
word.
Daigo at CEO was random as fuck.all this defensiveness over my saying a game has a level of randomness. Imagine if I said it was random as fuck. Even sf4 has some level of random shit. Jesus.
We learned that his Umeshoryu was basically xbox live shoryu.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If you can't articulate your argument, then you shouldn't even bother making one. You very clearly do not know what "random" means.all this defensiveness over my saying a game has a level of randomness. Imagine if I said it was random as fuck. Even sf4 has some level of random shit. Jesus.
Daigo at CEO was random as fuck.
We learned that his Umeshoryu was basically xbox live shoryu.
He got dem combos tho...
he was sandbagging/fangirl
Didn't read your post. Sorry, not trying to be rude, just letting it be known that I have no interest in whatever it is you posted. All this defensiveness over my saying a game has a level of randomness. Imagine if I said it was random as fuck. Even sf4 has some level of random shit*looks at seth, fuerte, abel mak. Jesus.
word.
People usually mention 'randomness' in marvel specifically to bash it and argue that it is a poor game for serious competitive play, so people who play the game get (ubderstandably) defensive when somebody just casually calls it random- doubly so if they don't play the game themselves.
Stabby McSter
Member
I know Honzo said he is going to CM, are X-Ray and K-Beast going?
I believe so? I think X-Ray is driving KBeast, Hi I'm Nastyy and some guys from the Stockton area, and I think Hi I'm Nastyy got them a place to stay down in Irvine.
WesternHeretic
Member
So X-Ray is now sponsored by Marvelous Customs, along with KBeast and Honzo Gonzo.
Grats to Kbeats and X-Ray.
Honzo getting a sponsor is just total lulz.
Daigo at CEO was random as fuck.
We learned that his Umeshoryu was basically xbox live shoryu.
That's not random because he has always played like that. Now if it was John Choi was doing that then yes that's random, but Daigo has always bet big on uppercut. For the longest time we figure he was magical... 10 years later we figured half of his DP were from option selecting way before any of us were. The other half are just bets that he feel can shift momentum.
Emperor Bohe
Member
tekken 5 hype on the evo stream.
People usually mention 'randomness' in marvel specifically to bash it and argue that it is a poor game for serious competitive play, so people who play the game get (ubderstandably) defensive when somebody just casually calls it random- doubly so if they don't play the game themselves.
I can definitely understand that. Though my response post that sparked this was really tame. Randomness isn't exclusive to marvel, though the unforgiving nature of the game does exacerbate matters (imo). I won't speak on it's merit as a competitive game, but if you ask if I think the game is random(whatever that means, it's not a coin toss, hours spent in training mode does matter) then I'd say it has 'some' level of randomness. I'd like to think that's a reasonable assessment seeing as randomness isn't exclusive to marvel.
you play a single match in ranked best 2/3 in any game and lose to a complete scrub, what do you say? "I got randomed out".
WesternHeretic
Member
tekken 5 hype on the evo stream.
I don't know why but I've always loved Tekken 5.0 even though it was 10x more broken than 5.1 and DR.
Steve's 3,1,1 <3
It was like a footsie base Marvel...
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Min is very awkward with this german guy.
toddhunter
Member
The game of Marvel isn't random, but the results can certainly have an element of that. A poor player could 'randomly' get lucky with a happy birthday on a good player and win. This is a result of the high damage output, XF and in general the amount of crazy stuff going on. It is much harder to get lucky enough times in a game like SF4. Even characters like Fuerte you have to guess right ... a lot.
Hence the more games of Marvel the better in a set the better, to cancel this factor out. If you get lucky 3 times out of 5, well that is just the Marvel gods smiling on you, but mostly it will not happen.
Hence the more games of Marvel the better in a set the better, to cancel this factor out. If you get lucky 3 times out of 5, well that is just the Marvel gods smiling on you, but mostly it will not happen.
I don't know why but I've always loved Tekken 5.0 even though it was 10x more broken than 5.1 and DR.
Steve's 3,1,1 <3
It was like a footsie base Marvel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAsUqN1KPjw
Never forget...
MiniBossBattle
Member
The german loves ChrisG & Marvel being played lame.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Someone should define random.
I can name 2 truly random things in Marvel and they have to do with Hsien-Ko and Phoenix Wright
edit- oh yeah Hsien-Ko's isn't even random it's time based
I can name 2 truly random things in Marvel and they have to do with Hsien-Ko and Phoenix Wright
edit- oh yeah Hsien-Ko's isn't even random it's time based
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
See, no. It's this kind of thinking I have a problem with. A happy birthday is a result of a bad assist call. It's a mistake that can be punished. Of course I agree that the punishment is often too severe, but that's an entirely different argument. If you convince yourself that there is some random or luck factor involved in it, then that only hurts your ability to learn and improve from it because you're making excuses for the outcome. That's just a lousy attitude to have no matter what game you're playing.The game of Marvel isn't random, but the results can certainly have an element of that. A poor player could 'randomly' get lucky with a happy birthday on a good player and win. This is a result of the high damage output, XF and in general the amount of crazy stuff going on. It is much harder to get lucky enough times in a game like SF4. Even characters like Fuerte you have to guess right ... a lot.
Hence the more games of Marvel the better in a set the better, to cancel this factor out. If you get lucky 3 times out of 5, well that is just the Marvel gods smiling on you, but mostly it will not happen.
Someone should define random.
I can name 2 truly random things in Marvel and they have to do with Hsien-Ko and Phoenix Wright
edit- oh yeah Hsien-Ko's isn't even random it's time based
Don't say it, random is a badword mmkay.
nah seriously though, fuck those kind of characters where you're forced to guess a mixup that's 70/30 in your opponents favor.
I can definitely understand that. Though my response post that sparked this was really tame. Randomness isn't exclusive to marvel, though the unforgiving nature of the game does exacerbate matters (imo). I won't speak on it's merit as a competitive game, but if you ask if I think the game is random(whatever that means, it's not a coin toss, hours spent in training mode does matter) then I'd say it has 'some' level of randomness. I'd like to think that's a reasonable assessment seeing as randomness isn't exclusive to marvel.
you play a single match in ranked best 2/3 in any game and lose to a complete scrub, what do you say? "I got randomed out".
If what you're saying is that marvel is like any other fighting game, just that any mistake or miscalculation is punished more severely, I don't think anybody would argue that. In any competition, a better player can lose to worse player and better player obviously benefits from having more matches. Even outside of fighting games you don't have to look very far- Starcraft, poker, etc. Fuck, I once beat Sako online, but I know it doesn't mean shit, lol. A weaker player can always on rare occasion pull off an upset if the stars align.