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Fighting Games Weekly | June 9-15 | Q Bomb is Top Tier
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
JeTmAn81
Member
It's the classic business problem of short-term vs. long-term strategy. Making great games not right now but when they've had enough dev time to become great, means sacrificing profit in the short-term and potentially upsetting your investors. But the companies that do this successfully are the ones that last.
Eh.
I think it should be approached more along the lines of what GuardianE said. Be angry / provide a backlash, but don't go nuts over it. I.e., quitting the genre now?. Hyperbole and idiotic.
Hell, despite my annoyed reaction, my mind is more on the Battlefield Hardline / Destiny Betas / Alphas and Heroes of the Storm alpha.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Capcom's top brass are morons, we've known that for years and years.
If Ono and Ayano come up on stage at Evo 2015 with P2W mechanics, then start raging.
If Ono and Ayano come up on stage at Evo 2015 with P2W mechanics, then start raging.
Dave Lang on Twitch talking Killer Instinct S2: http://www.twitch.tv/twitch
Yup. SFxT is actually an incredible "learn through failure" moment- but you have to be able to see why it failed.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I honestly don't think that will happen. The SF team at Capcom have enough experience to know better now after SFxT.
If the SF team actually does what they tried with SFxT in simplifying the gameplay whilst keeping it SF, they'll do well.
Hell, the can solve the 1f problem via doing something as simple as "during the last 25% of a normal's total time (startup+active+recovery), hold another button for that normal to come out on the first frame afterward".
BOOM, the link problem is sorted, no more dropped links and blockstrings due to online. That's just one way they can solve it (another is avoiding links, another is via more weird engine shenanigans like plinking and blinking).
See my previous post about the thread being flooded by Bridget talk. It wasn't directed at you specifically. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.
Congrats, this shirt is fabulous. The design just fits.
Agreed, for livestreams it's impossible to do this, you'd eventually speed up past the current point in time (unless you started mad late).
Additionally, you'd have to speed up everyrhing, not just gameplay (so that things like commentary would be in sync) and that would lead to obvious distortions in the broadcast.
Agreed. Free to play? I don't care. Flick the option that allows that in matches to "off".
Also, there won't be any way to load this information onto consoles in a tournament setting anyways (no internet, no cards).
I'm not concerned. It's high-level talks about what is currently vaporware.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I don't want 1-frame links but I suppose you can have characters that are beginner friendly.
I want a combo trainer/better tutorial.
I want to watch a match and then replay to see if I can do that combo and the game shows me the timing of the combo.
I just want to have fun honestly.
I want a combo trainer/better tutorial.
I want to watch a match and then replay to see if I can do that combo and the game shows me the timing of the combo.
I just want to have fun honestly.
excuse me
Ragingnight
Member
lol its really hard to have a game without 1-2 frame links.
As long as you have moves that are + on hit and moves thats are fast enough to go in those frames you have links.
You can negate the usage of 1framers by having normals cancel into each other though
As long as you have moves that are + on hit and moves thats are fast enough to go in those frames you have links.
You can negate the usage of 1framers by having normals cancel into each other though
Input Buffer.
Links are made much wider. Will have minimum windows depending on the move. Height-specific juggles may still have tiny windows.
That means they're against 1F links.
Yes, that doesn't mean that they don't understand that they're impossible to avoid and that other means need to be used to smooth them out.
This hurts me more than you could know. =P
Ragingnight
Member
you could just do it like SFxT. Chains do less damage, links do more.
The SFxT method ended up making the risk/reward on whiffed moves completely crazy since people were getting full combos off a single whiff punish. I'd rather they keep those in DS/Marvel.
Even short chains are death on block against half-decent players.
You have that in SF4 as well. Someone like Viper can do cr.MK TK Red Focus combo as a whiff punish. Same thing for someone like Evil Ryu with FADC combos.
there's an arbitrary execution point that bothers people, but high level competitive execution should and is a real thing and a major deciding factor in both character design and actual player decision making
it's actually a pretty big highlight of why people like sf2 over sf4 on a casual level, i think
the core flow of the game isn't centric around being able to execute the bare minimum punish/conversion off stuff into knockdown setup shit, but rather the standing game which is more in line with what people see in 'street fighter'
like you can get by doing pretty simple combos as your jumpin/crossup. at lower levels you can also get by using throws as your primary punish because of the more lenient method of input timing required (you can mash teh shit out of throw) and high dmg.
those people who complain about 1f links and how there shouldn't be any are generally complaining about not being able to break that 'arbitrary' execution barrier, whether it's 1f links or 5f links or whatever. the chain system was definitely developed to address this idea, but chains create a whole different kind of game in themselves and drastically change things up. umm, basically the way i see it is that you can design a street fighter style game to have less requirement to get into a -competitive- level by changing the design, rather than the execution requirement so there's less of a feel of 'arbitrary execution' '1f links' kinda deal. approaching it by making execution overall easier (edit: in certain ways!) can have drastic effects on the whole game that are hard to determine because it changes the risk/reward of buttons and whatnot moreso than overall system/character design that can be planned out from the start
or something, idk. im not good at these games but that's how i feel~
it's actually a pretty big highlight of why people like sf2 over sf4 on a casual level, i think
the core flow of the game isn't centric around being able to execute the bare minimum punish/conversion off stuff into knockdown setup shit, but rather the standing game which is more in line with what people see in 'street fighter'
like you can get by doing pretty simple combos as your jumpin/crossup. at lower levels you can also get by using throws as your primary punish because of the more lenient method of input timing required (you can mash teh shit out of throw) and high dmg.
those people who complain about 1f links and how there shouldn't be any are generally complaining about not being able to break that 'arbitrary' execution barrier, whether it's 1f links or 5f links or whatever. the chain system was definitely developed to address this idea, but chains create a whole different kind of game in themselves and drastically change things up. umm, basically the way i see it is that you can design a street fighter style game to have less requirement to get into a -competitive- level by changing the design, rather than the execution requirement so there's less of a feel of 'arbitrary execution' '1f links' kinda deal. approaching it by making execution overall easier (edit: in certain ways!) can have drastic effects on the whole game that are hard to determine because it changes the risk/reward of buttons and whatnot moreso than overall system/character design that can be planned out from the start
or something, idk. im not good at these games but that's how i feel~
Yeah, it requires meter and the right positioning though. Like how sometimes all you can do is sweep them, sometimes they eat an Ultra. This was "whiff anything, chain into a tag or launch combo pretty much 100% of the time"
Deckard Cain
Banned
Just played first game of Smash 4 guys...4 players 1 game, win or lose back of the line. Lots of asking for preorders.
Going to wait till I leave before I give impressions. But so far...meh.
Going to wait till I leave before I give impressions. But so far...meh.
I played Cammy/Dudley a lot. My game versus a lot of characters hinged on poke OS.
Honestly, I feel like Smash solved the accessibility issue. One button -> One action. Still loads of room to grow as a player. The pace of the game doesn't lag if players pick up a controller for the first time. This is a far cry from PSAllStars, where games could go for ages because newbies take forever to build meter and whiff supers all over the place.
irfaanator
Banned
I have no bias against 1f links b/c plinking is in the game. Plus I mean you can get away with a stand fierce into special as a punish in sf4. I would just like some easier way of doing combos into dp with sagat/adon
Even without arbitrary execution, the high level competitive execution barriers develop naturally. That's fine.
Poorly designed stuff like SF4's input system should be punishable by flogging. Nearly all of SF4's issues can be tied to the input system and poor decisions made years ago.
Rice-Eater
Member
It's not universal though. In SF4, it's unique to only a few characters. In SFxT, everybody could connect a normal into 400 damage with meter and their other character.
As for the pay to win strategy. Well I am kind of jealous that Sakura and Akuma got far fierce cancel and Evil Ryu didn't so how much is that going to cost me?
MiniBossBattle
Member
Oh gosh, I didn't mean it that way.
Casper, do you hit one-frame links consistently? How do people do it (minus putting in select buttons on their controller)
"God's Beard!"
Member
Plinking is already baby-mode accessibility.
Seeing guys like Justin, Ricky and Rog all whiffing Ultras/links in the middle of high-level matchups isn't fun for anyone other than their opponent.
SloaneRisette
Member
If SF5 is Pay to Win then SF4 will literally be my first and last Street Fighter
Time to prepare for the future of Smash Bros
Time to prepare for the future of Smash Bros
That's gonna be a party game tho, kappa
Smash, MK and Xrd- it's not like we're devoid of good options if Capcom screws the pooch again.
Deckard Cain
Banned
2 frame links are too easy though. There needs to be some 1 frame links.
SloaneRisette
Member
True. I'll stick to Smash though, MK doesn't interest me and while I'll probably try out Xrd, no clue if I'll wanna actually stick with it.
Master Milk
Member
I always enjoy watching Rufus lose
yeah, i'm not against easing execution barriers but i'm not sure how one would go about it in a way that wouldn't drastically affect the core game too.
designing the core game to where execution is important but not as much of a deciding factor is more along the solution line i'm addressing
also it's really funny that ultra drops are used as an argument against execution when it's actually like kind of a huge example for why execution is a core part of the human side of fighting games. even basic stuff like that can still be dropped because of nerves, and that risk/reward will always exist because it's a fundamental aspect of making fighting games interesting
the opposite is marvel 3 lightning loops by competent players, for what it's worth
edit: actually re-reading what kirblar said i'm retarded and disregard what i said as a reply to that because if it's an input glitch then lol jesus christ capcom
sixteen-bit
Member
I mained Abel in OG SF4, so I'm with you there, lol
I think it's a bit of both - the issue is that putting the barrier from low->medium level play at a point where FADC->Ultra is mandatory leaves an enormous amount of people in the cold who straight up don't have the execution skills to do it. Red Focus has been enormously helpful for giving lower-level players access to their Ultras who otherwise couldn't pull it off.
You want the drops to be "used wrong combo" or "blatant screwup", not "input glitch" or "requires inhuman reflexes/Keno Eye."
Skullgirls did a good job of this.
SFA2 did a good job of this.
You are always going to have drops, the problem is SF4 input was tailor-mode for tons of OS's and confusing/overlapping inputs, combined with a huge penalty for missing links. (In ST, you miss a link the opponent didn't mash a reversal on you)
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