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Fighting Games Weekly | May 18-24 | Forget it Jake, it's Capcom Town
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
The fight for stun in SF4 is one of the most fun things in the game, if it's acceptable to reward players for shitty defense, why not reward players for excellent offense too?
It's not for every game though, it shouldn't be in games that already have a lot of down time like MvC and SG, I see no reason for it to be in KoFXIII too, and I doubt anyone would notice if they took it out.
In Xrd, it seems more of a tool for certain characters, though it's not handled as well as 3s.
It's not for every game though, it shouldn't be in games that already have a lot of down time like MvC and SG, I see no reason for it to be in KoFXIII too, and I doubt anyone would notice if they took it out.
In Xrd, it seems more of a tool for certain characters, though it's not handled as well as 3s.
This. This. This.
People should be rewarded for excellent defense, not rewarded highly for poor defense (ie. mash out a DP FADC into Ultra for 30%+).
Stuff like a well timed counter move or reversal in a Tekken game (b+2+4 for some characters) is good stuff. I know GG has some mechanics to give advantage to good use of defense mechanics but in that game it's clearly the aggressor that has the huge advantage.
Stuff like a well timed counter move or reversal in a Tekken game (b+2+4 for some characters) is good stuff. I know GG has some mechanics to give advantage to good use of defense mechanics but in that game it's clearly the aggressor that has the huge advantage.
Coffeeling
Member
It rewards you for correct action, essentially.
Block an attack, get GRD.
Get an attack blocked, lose GRD.
Run away, lose GRD.
Move forward, get GRD.
Manage to use the Concentration ability (character glows blue), get GRD.
Be Gordeau and command grab people, steal their GRD.
In the middle there's a timer that does a full circle every I think 17 seconds, and whoever has more GRD at that moment gains Vorpal state which essentially gives you a damage boost and the ability to do a Chain Shift. CS is essentially a roman cancel that turns your GRD into super meter.
KOF13 does similarily in that you gain more meter for blocking attacks than the attacker does and hitting with your attacks gives you more meter than the victim gets for getting hit.
EDIT: This extends to fireballs too, btw. You can just block them and get more meter than whoever threw them.
Things that get you GRD:
Moving forward
Airdashing forward
Charging it in neutral
Teching a Grab
Blocking attacks
Shield Blcoking attacks rewards more
You lose GRD by moving backwards, having things blocked, getting teched etc. It's a tug of war. Every 15 seconds whoever has the most GRD gets vorpal, which gives them a slight damage boost, and they can cash in vorpal for a cancel called "Chain Shift" that also gives them meter based on how much GRD they have. They can also cash it in for a guard cancel.
In neutral it rewards the most aggressive player who is taking the risks and making things happen, and rewards that player with a way to help win neutral or convert better/harder. Once pressure starts, it rewards the player on defense for using the defensive mechanics properly and gives them better options to deal with shit.
Slamtastic
Member
There aren't too many games out there that reward excellent defense outside of reads I noticed.
The ones I can recall is UNI's shield and Just Defend. I know there's stuff like IBing, but I feel like the thought process with executing IBs is pretty different from Just Defending.
The ones I can recall is UNI's shield and Just Defend. I know there's stuff like IBing, but I feel like the thought process with executing IBs is pretty different from Just Defending.
finding safe gifs was a little challenging
I am now reminded that we'll never get another season of this magnificent show :'(
Tekken rewards excellent defense. If you can block everything in that game and can react to or read the opponent properly almost all the time then you will never lose because you will never get hit and the opponent will never have an advantage over you. You can't get chipped in the game or put in crazy block stun so you will never be at a huge disadvantage for blocking too much since so many moves are - on block (and those that are positive on block have really long start up that can be reversal'd/side stepped/ducked/low parried etc). The rest is a matter of your positioning, another aspect of defense really which will allow you to avoid mix up situations (basic mid/low stuff).
It's why that game is honest and doesn't need specific defensive mechanics to reward good defense to counter strong offense.
It's why that game is honest and doesn't need specific defensive mechanics to reward good defense to counter strong offense.
IBs in Persona actually break certain kinds of offense and are intensely rewarding in a lot of cases. In vanilla IBing was stupid good, but in P4U2 it's a lot less common to IB and get a big call out since offense got way dumber.
In Blazblue IB and IB+Barrier are also very rewarding and offer different ways to handle things for active defense.
Older BBs had the worst guard crush system to ever be in a fighting game though so whatever.
Actually, that's true. With less defending options in Persona, I forgot how crucial it was to IB to break certain offense. I also forgot to list IB Barrier (something I wish more US players used or knew about).
Also don't remind me on how awful Guard Libra was or Guard Primer. BBCP was a godsend after finally having a guard mechanic that didn't anger me. lol
LMAO @ this ad... HOLY SHIT!
"MY DRAGON PUNCHES HAVE LOADS OF ENERGY DUDE!"
This is 90s to the EEXXXXXTTTRRREEEMMMMEEEE!!!
I'm not a fan of stun/dizzy in general. The video snippet where MikeZ talks about it largely covers my views on it. When you have a good offense, you're already dealing damage and getting closer to winning, likely comboing into a knockdown and receiving the rewards it entails. Having stun/dizzy on top of that is just another unnecessary layer of getting shat on for losing.
Thomasorus
Member
None of these games are real free to play but more like heavy demos like discs in the 90s... With the possibility to buy things but the whole package is so much more interesting. Real F2P does not give you the whole game for a 40$ ticket, they ask you for money to convert into in-game money and you buy things. And Tekken Revo was a test for Namco to try things with this model but it's not a product designed in the first place to earn a lot of money as it's done with credits. The goal was to gather data.
All these games still had a single answer about the experience: being free helped a lot of people that didn't want to buy the game to at least try it. Harada said in interviews that Revo helped the US younger public to discover the series for example, and that old Tekken PS1 era fans tested the game again.
So the retail price is a real barrier that needs to be adressed but doing a full F2P game is crazy/dangerous for a few reasons :
- It would cost us, the players, more than the box/retail version if all characters were to be bought separate.
- You have to/can start small with a small roster and build from there. Going with a 16 character may seem small and the minimum for players but it's actually big and costs a lot that you need to recover fast, thus you seel a 70$ retail copy. Plus when the good thing for your game is to stay at 25 characters and you reach this point, what do you do?
- You need various things to sell and give people arguments to buy them. Characters are the main thing but since they are very complicated and it takes years to master one, you won't buy a lot of them. Your main and you sub, that's all, so it's not profitable enough. Costumes, stages are cool but they are not the core thing. The reason LoL works is that characters are simply designed. You buy one, you master it in a week, you buy another one or get bored.
- Fighters are played in versus, BO3, that's it. You can pick 10 modes to play in Dota2 if you want to spice things up. Also a game like LoL or Dota2 have the balance done both by the devs and the players since players can ban characters, a thing you will never see in a fighting game as involvement in a character is too heavy to permit banning. So you have to think about how you balance your game, how often, with or without players.
- F2P and competitive games are indexed on the account to define what player can play via online connection. How do you handle this in tournaments that are mostly offline?
And probably many more problems.
The ideal way of doing it is going Marvel vs Capcom 4 as a free to play: you need 3 characters so you have to buy at least 3 of them. You need others to counter different teams. You don't have a limit to the roster, more characters is better. Huge lore and cosmetics you can sell. You could invent new modes with the freedom of the team thing.
But for Street Fighter ? There's a lot of things you need to take into account to make it work. I mean Capcom isn't even capable of doing a proper solo content at the the moment.
Best model for fighting games (as far as from the perspective of the players is concerned) is the DOTA 2 model where all the characters and modes are free but the cosmetics/items you can either buy or randomly get from just playing the game. Some stuff you even get from just watching games.
This model really only works when you have millions of people playing. It won't work for a game with a smaller audience even with whales... making fighting game characters is very expensive. So no fighting game company is going to go for it... they will probably adopt the LoL method of you having currency to unlock characters by playing the game or just buy them with real money.
This model really only works when you have millions of people playing. It won't work for a game with a smaller audience even with whales... making fighting game characters is very expensive. So no fighting game company is going to go for it... they will probably adopt the LoL method of you having currency to unlock characters by playing the game or just buy them with real money.
https://twitter.com/EvilMrWizard/status/601098137172774912
Get well soon, Mr. Wizard
Edit: It seems no one here wants to wish him well. lol -__-
Get well soon, Mr. Wizard
Edit: It seems no one here wants to wish him well. lol -__-
MiniBossBattle
Member
Do you think FGs should be longer? What about forcing longer sets with items earned/meter kept after a win/loss? Maybe like a boxing match? Just thinking outside the box.
Not feasible for open tournaments where you have 100+ entrants for a game. Would be fine for E-sports style invitational matches or final matches where it's just like 8 players.
I personally wouldn't mind that as I am used to games with longer matches on PC like MOBAs. Generally speaking you want a top 8 of a fighting game to be done in 2-3 hours and if it takes 40 minutes to complete one match then that would just take too long for it to be practical in the current format of fighting game tournaments.
What if you factor that dota is 5v5 so it has a better community than fgs.and the free model is dead or alive and I haven't seen new players from that community in other games.
Fighting games are hard like chess.random idea. Throw out a old street fighter game for free so the general audience at least remembers street fighter
Exhibition sets are where its at. Each region should do them more often.
Lostconfused
Member
New EXVS update will let people "rent" characters with in-game currency. Useable until they lose a match lol. However you can permanently buy cosmetic stuff with the same currency? It's kinda weird.
There are many games that are team based and don't have as big of a community as DOTA or even something like SF4. On the other hand, there are many 1v1 games that have a bigger community than fighting games (like Hearthstone currently) and some team based games. So it's really a case by case basis.
However, being available for free on a widely used platform like PC greatly increases the potential reach of your game. You wanna know what the top 4-5 games on Twitch all have in common? They are on PC and they are free.
Hold that thought.
But you're being dismissive because that's not what I'm actually saying. When I use the quoted neologism "Shoto-ness" it's implied that it's something of a vagary. Pointing out that a character has Shoto qualities does not make them a Shoto, de facto. The "point" to the labeling is to express my subjective view on SF4's concept, see if others agree, and use that to support the notion that more Shotos =/= Bad Street Fighter game. To the contrary, that makes it a good one (in my view).
It's merely a conceptualization, dude.
Sim, Hakan, Fuerte, and Viper should not be in SFV.
atomic moth
Member
Agreed. In 1080p so we can see the differences in Blanka and Chun Li's diet
"Sure I got a great defense, but we're not here to defend, we're here to win!"
-Dieminion, 90s
"God's Beard!"
Member
MTG matches can take over an hour and there's about to be an 8000-man tournament in vegas next week.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";164598210]MTG matches can take over an hour and there's about to be an 8000-man tournament in vegas next week.[/QUOTE]
MTG matches don't require the TO to have $500 of equipment per station
edit: to be clear I think long FG sets are fine, but mtg isn't exactly the best analogy to draw
MTG matches don't require the TO to have $500 of equipment per station
edit: to be clear I think long FG sets are fine, but mtg isn't exactly the best analogy to draw
Smooth Operator
Member
I really need to play more EXVS. But i don't know a lot of people who are playing this game in Europe
Oh and yeah, Japanese texts :'(
An informative and great read. Its sad to see that average people who haven't done art for a game or even been involved in game development do not know the struggle artist go through to achieve their vision.
Zero is gonna win the tournament, we all know that.
MiniBossBattle
Member
You have one(long) game. Just thinking the long set idea but with in game consequences. I have been playing DiRt Rally and been reading how differently they play 24 stage rally vs. a mad 2 stage rally.
Basically what I am driving at interms of changing the format like DoTa. The only issue is the lack of team synergy/strategy.
I really need to play more EXVS. But i don't know a lot of people who are playing this game in Europe
it wasn't too bad playing with people in europe, exvs has great net code
non-issue, main menu is english and all the hard work on menu tranlsation is done & in the OP, plus guides, etc.
That was a wonderful read.
Coffeeling
Member
Someone in the comments did point out that if you use too high-res and multicolor pixel art, it in effect ends up looking like a model, just done badly. If you want to emphasize pixel art as an artistic choice, that needs to be abundantly clear, aka Shovel Knight, Megaman 9/10, etc.
It's not how many hate it, it's how many buy it.
If it sells 2-3 mil, it doesn't matter how many folks hate it. Millions of folks hate DOTA/LOL.
Coffeeling
Member
The worst crime in entertainment is not being hated. It is being boring.
Combo Breaker Pools: http://tinyurl.com/cb2015pools
MKX 260
USF4 265
GGXrd 156
SSB4 139
KI 103
UMvC3 92
TTT2 58
MYST 121
Melee 75
P4AU 37
UNIEL 63
KoF13 40
INJ 31
SG 104
DK 44
LL 35
VS 30
MvC2 22
Garou 27
UMK3 14
MKX 260
USF4 265
GGXrd 156
SSB4 139
KI 103
UMvC3 92
TTT2 58
MYST 121
Melee 75
P4AU 37
UNIEL 63
KoF13 40
INJ 31
SG 104
DK 44
LL 35
VS 30
MvC2 22
Garou 27
UMK3 14
great article but kind of depressing in a way.
sixteen-bit
Member
please tell me MYST is the same CD-ROM adventure game I'm thinking it is.
shocking that KI got more than Marvel.
MYST speedrun challenge would be a hilarious Mystery Game tournament entry.