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Fighting Games Weekly | Sept 15-21 | Mewwho?

S

Sayah

Member
Dahbomb said:
That's bull shit because Doom as a support character can still do all that in Vanilla. He still has his TAC combos in Vanilla as well as well as OP Missiles and Plasma Beam.

Go boot up MVC3 and try to do the same Morrigan + Doom stuff... it still works in Vanilla. What's different is that a character like Wolverine would not give a fuck about that and just Berderper Slash through it with no thought or skill or he will just let his whole team die and kill your team with Phoenix (as Morrigan does not have meter steal fireball and Phoenix is just way stronger). That's brain dead as hell.
Click to expand...

Okay. So you're taking away one unbalanced aspect of the game and introduced another one. You've taken away wolverine power and, instead, made an assist overpowered that pretty much interrupts everything. And now this is the pocket character for everyone.

Not just Doom missiles, I don't recall seeing absurd loops with Doom in vanilla either....unless I'm mistaken.

Seyavesh said:
edit: gdi beaten

also morrigan is actually significantly worse in vanilla- her changes are actually more shocking as a 'remembrance' thing than doom or mags (i will never forget vanilla zerker slash ugggggg)- her flight is way slower to start up and her fireballs cause significantly less chip/do less overall damage alongside not juggling for more than like 3 (at most!) fireballs when in astral. alongside that her dashes are way slower and shell kick is really garbage, speed and hitbox wise.

she was pretty damn mediocre, it's great! but then the guy you're fighting picks one of the top tier characters in vanilla and you're just in awe at how absurdly powerful they are

like yo have any of yall tried plinkdashing as magneto in vanilla marvel 3? you can cause the camera snapback glitch consistently it's fucking hilarious how fast he is
Click to expand...

Now, you and dahbomb are giving me conflicting information.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Sayah said:
Okay. So you're taking away one unbalanced aspect of the game and introduced another one. You've taken away wolverine power and this, instead, made an assist overpowered that pretty much interrupts everything. And now this is the pocket character for everyone.

Not just Doom missiles, I don't recall seeing absurd loops with Doom in vanilla either....unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...
The infinites weren't found till Ultimate, but the DHC bs made it so they weren't even really necessary.
 
S

Sayad

Member
Dahbomb said:
Go boot up MVC3 and try to do the same Morrigan + Doom stuff... it still works in Vanilla. What's different is that a character like Wolverine would not give a fuck about that and just Berderper Slash through it with no thought or skill or he will just let his whole team die and kill your team with Phoenix (as Morrigan does not have meter steal fireball and Phoenix is just way stronger). That's brain dead as hell.
Click to expand...
There's also Morrigan's fireballs and unfly not being as good, even her jump S was buffed in UMvC3. Not to mention sniping assist was easier in vanilla too. MorriDoom is nowhere near as effective even without Wolve and Phoenix. Still, claiming MvC3 is more balanced is ridiculous.
 
J

jbug617

Banned
Stream is up
http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz

Schedule
Bx8D-SuCUAE5WfY.png
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Sayah said:
Okay. So you're taking away one unbalanced aspect of the game and introduced another one. You've taken away wolverine power and, instead, made an assist overpowered that pretty much interrupts everything. And now this is the pocket character for everyone.

Not just Doom missiles, I don't recall seeing absurd loops with Doom in vanilla either....unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...
They didn't change Missiles, how many times do we have to tell you this? Doom's support value in Ultimate was identical from Vanilla.

Whenever you take away an imbalanced aspect of a game, a new imbalanced feature will come up because that's how fighting games work.

Example:

In Ultimate you nerf Morrigan + Missiles and Zero to the point where they are no longer top tier. Ok cool.... now you just made Wolverine top 5 and him being such an easy character means that everyone is using him now.

Ok you nerf Wolverine.. now you just made Nova absurd, probably best character in the game because he beats Magneto as well. Nova is over powered now.


And the Doom combo you are talking about was in vanilla as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfDV6KpFCZY


There's also Morrigan's fireballs and unfly not being as good, even her jump S was buffed in UMvC3. Not to mention sniping assist was easier in vanilla too. MorriDoom is nowhere near as effective even without Wolve and Phoenix. Still, claiming MvC3 is more balanced is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
It's not as effective but the whole AV + Missile spam is still very good and powerful to the point where it shuts down a vast majority of the cast.
 
S

Seyavesh

Member
TAC infinites still work in vanilla
Also Zero had the sogenmu glitch where you can't break his TACs lol

but why would you TAC when you kill them off all hits using dhc glitch, super loops or literal 2-3 minute long combos (fuuuuuuuck vanilla dante for real) that build 3-5 bars in the process

also for real if you got vanilla boot it up and plink dash as mags i guarantee your entertainment

edit: id love if everyone played wolv and nova, task busts them harder than the pinkertons busted unions
 
S

Sayah

Member
Sayad said:
There's also Morrigan's fireballs and unfly not being as good, even her jump S was buffed in UMvC3. Not to mention sniping assist was easier in vanilla too. MorriDoom is nowhere near as effective even without Wolve and Phoenix. Still, claiming MvC3 is more balanced is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I enjoyed MvC3 far more.
Probably is just my bias speaking. Since I'm not as knowledgeable as you regular Marvel players, I'll concede on that point.

The other stuff I said still stands, however.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Plink dashing with Iron Man while in flight mode in Vanilla was also a treat.

The character STILL sucked more in Vanilla if that is even possible to comprehend.


Now, you and dahbomb are giving me conflicting information.
Click to expand...
I explained myself better.

Morrigan + Doom was still a potent combination in Vanilla although not as good as in UMVC3. The whole Fireball + Missiles lock down was still very ridiculous even in Vanilla but the fact that you took less chip and you weren't in danger of getting juggled for 90% health made it less scary. In Vanilla, Morrigan + Doom would've completely shut down She Hulk + Tron and at end game stage, She Hulk would've been completely irrelevant.
 
C

CPS2

Member
It would've been interesting if umvc3 was announced a bit later and we saw more of the dhc glitch. It was in a lot of combo videos but were people using it much in tournaments? The way I remember it there was pretty low interest in vanilla once ultimate was announced and there wasn't a whole lot of time between the dhc glitch being found in vanilla and ultimate coming out.
 
S

Sayah

Member
Dahbomb said:
They didn't change Missiles, how many times do we have to tell you this? Doom's support value in Ultimate was identical from Vanilla.

Whenever you take away an imbalanced aspect of a game, a new imbalanced feature will come up because that's how fighting games work.

Example:

In Ultimate you nerf Morrigan + Missiles and Zero to the point where they are no longer top tier. Ok cool.... now you just made Wolverine top 5 and him being such an easy character means that everyone is using him now.

Ok you nerf Wolverine.. now you just made Nova absurd, probably best character in the game because he beats Magneto as well. Nova is over powered now.


And the Doom combo you are talking about was in vanilla as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfDV6KpFCZY



It's not as effective but the whole AV + Missile spam is still very good and powerful to the point where it shuts down a vast majority of the cast.
Click to expand...
Let me make this more clearer for you.
You said this:

Dahbomb said:
Go boot up MVC3 and try to do the same Morrigan + Doom stuff...
Click to expand...


Seyavesh said this:
Seyavesh said:
also morrigan is actually significantly worse in vanilla- her changes are actually more shocking as a 'remembrance' thing than doom or mags (i will never forget vanilla zerker slash ugggggg)- her flight is way slower to start up and her fireballs cause significantly less chip/do less overall damage alongside not juggling for more than like 3 (at most!) fireballs when in astral. alongside that her dashes are way slower and shell kick is really garbage, speed and hitbox wise.

she was pretty damn mediocre, it's great! but then the guy you're fighting picks one of the top tier characters in vanilla and you're just in awe at how absurdly powerful they are

like yo have any of yall tried plinkdashing as magneto in vanilla marvel 3? you can cause the camera snapback glitch consistently it's fucking hilarious how fast he is
Click to expand...

Clearly MorriDoom wasn't the same in Vanilla based on this information.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
CPS2 said:
It would've been interesting if umvc3 was announced a bit later and we saw more of the dhc glitch. It was in a lot of combo videos but were people using it much in tournaments? The way I remember it there was pretty low interest in vanilla once ultimate was announced and there wasn't a whole lot of time between the dhc glitch being found in vanilla and ultimate coming out.
Click to expand...
A lot of people did use the DHC glitch. Was pretty prevalent in Seasons Beating after EVO.

Clearly MorriDoom wasn't the same in Vanilla based on this information.
Click to expand...
The lock down is the same. Do that in Vanilla then have your She Hulk try to get in on that. It won't work. Mechanically the duo works the same... it's stuff like fireball damage and hit stun that makes it less scary.

I would also add that because meter gain was so high in Vanilla, Morrigan actually had better uptime on AV.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Metagames getting solved too quickly and stagnating play is definitely a big issue in the internet age. MTG just announced a move to a faster-rotating primary format (twice-yearly, instead of once) in part because of issues they were having where there was minimal exploration 6 months into a format because too much was known about it. Balance updates are an important part of the modern lifecycle/budget for any competitive game, and unfortunately it seems to have taken Marvel's slow decline for Capcom to understand that.
 
S

Sayad

Member
Sayah said:
I enjoyed MvC3 far more.
Probably is just my bias speaking. Since I'm not as knowledgeable as you regular Marvel players, I'll concede on that point.

The other stuff I said still stands, however.
Click to expand...
Not really a regular Marvel player and I too enjoyed playing MvC3 more, but only because the group I played with banned Phoenix. ;p
 
S

Seyavesh

Member
dhc glitch had very high presence in tourney,
. all the mags players used it cuz hypergrav started it and like a million supers could be the second half

Dante could both start and finish it for even more funtimes
 
S

Sayah

Member
Dahbomb said:
The lock down is the same. Do that in Vanilla then have your She Hulk try to get in on that. It won't work. Mechanically the duo works the same... it's stuff like fireball damage and hit stun that makes it less scary.
Click to expand...

You weren't referencing the lockdown in specific.
 
F

Frantic

Member
Vanilla MvC3 was a funny game that's best left forgotten.

Vanilla Dante was god, and Dante/Haggar/Phoenix was worse than any Ultimate team for the most part
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Sayah said:
You weren't referencing the lockdown in specific.
Click to expand...
Sorry I was not specific, I had already typed up a ton of stuff in that post and before.

A better example would've been Magneto + Missiles and I would argue that Magneto + Missiles was more oppressive in Vanilla due to Magneto's faster mobility and more powerful EMD.

Missiles in general was just not very explored in Vanilla. Neither were TACs, Doom in general (that includes Plasma Beam), Morrigan, Joe, Zero, Viper, Spider Man etc.
 
S

Sayah

Member
Dahbomb said:
Sorry I was not specific, I had already typed up a ton of stuff in that post and before.

A better example would've been Magneto + Missiles and I would argue that Magneto + Missiles was more oppressive in Vanilla due to Magneto's faster mobility and more powerful EMD.
Click to expand...

It's cool.

Sayad said:
Not really a regular Marvel player and I too enjoyed playing MvC3 more, but only because the group I played with banned Phoenix. ;p
Click to expand...

Phoneix was really the only annoying thing for me in Vanilla.
Wesker and Zero both lost out in a matchup against Trish.......or at least, whenever I played online, they did. Wolverine was also manageable for me.
 
M

MisterLuffy

Member
QisTopTier, I watched the video you linked me. I'll retract my last statement on how it takes long to KO in Smash 4. I've played the demo with my brothers and hated the fact I wasn't able to KO them at that percentage. I'll just have to get better at that game in order for me to KO fast like Zero.
 
F

Flying High

Member
In Vanilla the DHC glitch started to fade away more and more because most of the time when you fighting your opponent, you couldn't kill the point character because of them most likely having Phoenix in back, because doing the DHC glitch would give them TONS of meter with the meter build in vanilla Mahvel.

So you HAD snap and not go for the kill, because if you didn't, you would of most likely lost, because unless you had dormammu with TONS of meter to able to chip dark phoenix before she landed on the ground, or used spiderman for the anti-phoenix setup(Because in vanilla you couldn't X-Factor in the air at all, you had be to on the ground to do it), you would of most likely would of lost, because in vanilla, there was no anti phoenix character, she had no bad matchups. You would of most likely gotten Dark Phoenixed in vanilla if you did the DHC glitch
 
S

Sayad

Member
Dahbomb said:
The lock down is the same. Do that in Vanilla then have your She Hulk try to get in on that. It won't work. Mechanically the duo works the same... it's stuff like fireball damage and hit stun that makes it less scary.

I would also add that because meter gain was so high in Vanilla, Morrigan actually had better uptime on AV.
Click to expand...
The lock down isn't the same since she can't spam fireballs as fast due to unfly being slower, she's not safe against random supers in MvC3 and her fireball durability is way worse, the spam wouldn't work against beams. She Hulk would just need a good assist/back-up DHC to work around Morridoom.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
...I think I would have taken Vanilla Dante over Ultimate Zero
Click to expand...
Yeah but Vanilla Dante also came with Vanilla Haggar and Vanilla Phoenix.

It's like Morrigan in UMVC3. By herself not so bad.... with Missiles she is absurd and then Vergil completes the trifecta and ramps it up to ridiculous tier.


The lock down isn't the same since she can't spam fireballs as fast due to unfly being slower, she's not safe against random supers in MvC3 and her fireball durability is way worse it doesn't work against beams, She Hulk would just need a good assist/back-up DHC to work around Morridoom.
Click to expand...
The slower fireball spam is vastly exaggerated.. it's not THAT slow she will throw like one fireball less within the same spam of time. I have seen that in action on Vanilla... like it basically looks like how a non ChrisG player would spam fireballs with Morrigan in UMVC3 (slower but not that much slower).

I don't think her fireball durability was lower. If it was then that's a pretty huge change. I would need citation on that.
 
F

Frantic

Member
D

Dlent

Member
Marvel is a series that will be played no matter how stupid it gets. I hope the incoming patch makes it even crazier than vanilla.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Dante building 5 meters in a combo in Vanilla never ceases to amaze me.

Neither does Vanilla Hammer. Super invincible, good hit box, extremely +ve on block move that leads into a full bread n butter. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea to give a character?

Probably the same guy who thought it was a good idea to give Zero Buster cancel..... oh wait.
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Dahbomb said:
The lock down is the same. Do that in Vanilla then have your She Hulk try to get in on that. It won't work. Mechanically the duo works the same... it's stuff like fireball damage and hit stun that makes it less scary.

I would also add that because meter gain was so high in Vanilla, Morrigan actually had better uptime on AV.
Click to expand...

Morridoom wouldn't be very useful in vanilla since Wolverine could just go through all of it.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Parallax Scroll said:
Morridoom wouldn't be very useful in vanilla since Wolverine could just go through all of it.
Click to expand...
I just said that before. Also Phoenix would make it irrelevant as well.

Actually I would say that's the #1 reason why MorriDoom wasn't picked up before or really any other full zoning team. People could've easily picked Magneto + Doom in Vanilla but almost no one did... having Wolverine in other people's team demanded the need for invincible assists.
 
A

Azure J

Member
Frantic said:
This is still my favorite combo video. All of that invincibility. Get back!
Click to expand...

STILL the best opening to a combo video. This game was so fucking stupid and I actually wanted to play Dante. :lol

Seyavesh said:
her fb durability was still 5pts in vanilla

meanwhile, fuck vanilla dante
remember this? one of my training buddies figured out how to make it not cross up and it would also randomly not cross up if you were moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4NqOYg8WOM
Click to expand...

Oh man, I remember the first time I saw this. I legitimately started wondering where all the bug testers were. I also wondered why no one was exploring the character either.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
MVC2/MVC3/UMVC3 are legitimately hard games to bug test though. The more variables you add to the game the more bugs you will have.

There are SSSSSOOOOO many bugs in UMVC3. So many of them affect top level play as well.

It's really the same with MOBAs actually... those games have a ton of bugs in them even after getting updated so frequently.
 
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