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[outlawedprod]

Well we should give credit to S-E when it comes to the financials this time. They were smart enough to launch before WoW Cataclysm to get the box sales and some extra subs for a little while. I wonder if there are many guilds now like "Two Months Tops" which were common in Warhammer during the Warhammer launch to WoW Lich King launch time window.

Those claiming that reviewing a mmo at launch should not be done or is not indicative of the game seem to think we shouldn't knock the current state because it will get better. I can't agree with that. In fact I would argue that anyone talking about reviewing a mmo as just a game is coming from the wrong point of view. A subscription mmo is a service and should be reviewed as such. Is there anyone in this thread who can actually claim that FF14 is a good service to subscribe to right now or will be in the next 2 months? I find better iteration of game mechanics, customer support, game content, fun factor, and several other things in many other mmos. Even F2P mmos like Vindictus do some categories like combat (for me at least) far better than FF14.

 

[notworksafe]

Most MMO's don't give you anything but griding to progress.

What? That's totally wrong. As has been brought up in threads before, what MMOs have you played that aren't FFXI and FFXIV that have given you such insight?

 

[twofold]

His computer, and or internet sucks at running the game. Take a video of any MMO. Soloing is slow. Most MMO's don't give you anything but griding to progress. I guess FFXIV is suppose to have no griding, even tho all MMO's before it has had it.

With how little content there is in the game currently, what is there to besides grinding mobs or grinding the crafts?

Anyway - what does the performance of the guys rig have to do with anything? He grinded for four minutes straight and got 0.5% of the xp needed to level up. At that rate, it'd take him 13 hours of straight grinding to go from 26 -> 27. God knows how long it'd take to get to max level.

Do you not see the problem there?

 

[hamchan]

Well we should give credit to S-E when it comes to the financials this time. They were smart enough to launch before WoW Cataclysm to get the box sales and some extra subs for a little while. I wonder if there are many guilds now like "Two Months Tops" which were common in Warhammer during the Warhammer launch to WoW Lich King launch time window.

Those claiming that reviewing a mmo at launch should not be done or is not indicative of the game seem to think we shouldn't knock the current state because it will get better. I can't agree with that. In fact I would argue that anyone talking about reviewing a mmo as just a game is coming from the wrong point of view. A subscription mmo is a service and should be reviewed as such. Is there anyone in this thread who can actually claim that FF14 is a good service to subscribe to right now or will be in the next 2 months? I find better iteration of game mechanics, customer support, game content, fun factor, and several other things in many other mmos. Even F2P mmos like Vindictus do some categories like combat (for me at least) far better than FF14.

I think they would have done better to delay the game 6 months. Extra development time and part of the WoW hype will have died down. By releasing the game now in this state they might have lost some subscribers and WoW will just steal more later this year.

 

[outlawedprod]

I think they would have done better to delay the game 6 months. Extra development time and part of the WoW hype will have died down.

Well they clearly aren't trying to make a next generation mmo when it comes to the combat mechanics, world/story integration, pvp, etc. If they launch next year they would have to deal with Tera Online, Guild Wars 2, Star Wars instead of just WoW. At least with vs WoW they have some historical background with FF11 on what they can hope to retain from those who are their fanbase or sold on the FF brand.

 

[Cmagus]

I agree with the review. Although I will say the combat is fun but the lack of anything really hurts this game.The UI is slow although for me it doesn't bother me so much however at times it can be clunky.The game needs an an auction house I am sure everyone can agree on that the market wards is a clusterfuck that takes at least half hour to look through everyone maybe more if busy time.

Leve quests are getting extremely boring fast.Any other MMO there is NPC all around giving quests and what not there is no reason why this game with its handfuls of useless NPC players standing around cannot have that.No reason why they cant have people give you quests that say go fetch me 3 of these items from this monster even something as simple as that would add a ton more variety.

Leves also need to be picked up at the camps I am sorry when your out of anima and traveling becomes a boring run fest I stop playing I don't feel like running to my home town for more there is no need for it.

The caps are fucking ridiculous in this game.I can understand them not wanting players to get ahead fast and even a penalty would be fine but to say you can't do something for a certain amount of hours is bullshit considering this game has only 2 things in it either your doing leves or crafting other than that this game has 0 to offer and to cap those two things is pointless.I rather just have it that after you hit that cap they only give you 25% or something not 0 in the end.

I can honestly keep going but yeah this game has some serious stuff to fix it certainly isn't worth the price right now that's for sure. I don't have everyday to play this but when I do I like to invest a few hours but the easiness of the leves they always max before I really achieve anything.

5/10

 

[Flib]

What? That's totally wrong. As has been brought up in threads before, what MMOs have you played that aren't FFXI and FFXIV that have given you such insight?

Seriously...not to keep bringing it up, but WoW has pretty much completely gotten rid of the grind besides heroic gearing (which doesn't take that long) and optional rep grinds/achievements.

 

[notworksafe]

Not just WoW. My main example for a way to do an MMO with a proper story has been LotRO. It has the normal questing model that most MMOs do, but there is also a continuous storyline that you follow by doing 2-3 instanced quests per level that directly relate to the storyline.

I think every MMO needs to take some cues from LotRO on how to put story into your game and keep it engaging. It also has some damn nice voice work, with NPCs that actually react (in voice) to what is happening in the quest line.

 

[notworksafe]

dp sorry

 

[Londa]

What? That's totally wrong. As has been brought up in threads before, what MMOs have you played that aren't FFXI and FFXIV that have given you such insight?

Doing a quest for exp is still grinding.

 

[demosthenes]

Seriously...not to keep bringing it up, but WoW has pretty much completely gotten rid of the grind besides heroic gearing (which doesn't take that long) and optional rep grinds/achievements.

Haven't played WoW...so what do you do to get from 1 to 80 or w/e the cap is?

 

[Jerk]

Doing a quest for exp is still grinding.

I am going to fix this by adding that doing repetitive and unimaginative quests (and all other forms of filler content) is grind.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Doing a quest for exp is still grinding.

Then what task that gives exp isn't grinding?

 

[Londa]

Then what task that gives exp isn't grinding?

I'm not the one saying FFXIV shouldn't have grinding.

 

[demosthenes]

Then what task that gives exp isn't grinding?

Every MMO has grinding. You're not going to be max level in a month, nor should you want to.

 

[notworksafe]

Doing a quest for exp is still grinding.

Luckily damn near every MMO lets you XP in other scenarios. Skirmishes in LotRO, PVP in WAR, Dungeon Finder or PVP in WoW, etc. Not to mention that many MMOs have quests that aren't straight grinding.

Some are directly story driven runs through a dungeon area, some put you in other NPC bodies to experience the story through a different characters eyes, there's even one in Cataclysm that makes YOU the quest giver for NPC characters. Not every quest is "Kill X number of Y and report back".

Again Londa, what MMOs have you played? If they were halfway modern ones you'd know these things already.

 

[Teknopathetic]

ITT: We obfuscate the meaning of grind so we can pretend it's not that big of a problem in FFXIV.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

ITT: We obfuscate the meaning of grind so we can pretend it's not that big of a problem in FFXIV.

Nothing that I say in this thread is a defense of FFXIV. Just spurring discussion.

 

[Ryn]

I hate reviews. Most of them never actually match what I think of a game.

 

[Vinci]

Gotta love when people put on those specially-tinted glasses and think any MMO lacks a grind. If there are un-fun elements that lead to progression or success, then there is a grind - and every single MMO that I've ever played has elements matching that description and usually in abundance. I love the genre, but lets get real here.

 

[JORMBO]

Luckily damn near every MMO lets you XP in other scenarios. Skirmishes in LotRO, PVP in WAR, Dungeon Finder or PVP in WoW, etc. Not to mention that many MMOs have quests that aren't straight grinding.

Some are directly story driven runs through a dungeon area, some put you in other NPC bodies to experience the story through a different characters eyes, there's even one in Cataclysm that makes YOU the quest giver for NPC characters. Not every quest is "Kill X number of Y and report back".

Again Londa, what MMOs have you played? If they were halfway modern ones you'd know these things already.

I just started leveling a character in WOW again. Last night I did some kill quests, a quest where I had to bomb shit, one where I had to ride some vehicles, one where I got turned into a ghost and had to explore an area, etc. I also ran a 5 man dungeon, then I did a battleground and fought some horde. I then sold some stuff I found on the AH and logged off.

On FFXIV I can log on and kill some squirrels...

 

[Haint]

Story missions unlock at rank 1, 8, 15, and 20. Class specific quests are also unlocked at 20. Faction leves are also rank 20. As you approach 20, youll start earning guild rewards for leves that can then be used to unlock abilties and skills to further your character.
It starts to become much more exciting once you get there and have the lure of new stuff breathing down your neck.

Unfortunately, you only get 1 ability at 20, 1 ability at 30, 1 ability at 40, etc... It takes 100+ hours to achieve each of those 10 level gaps with the present balancing and SP system. A lot of the abilities are also fairly worthless. The 1 class quest I've done so far makes Rank 1 Battle Leves look like Epic HNM battles. It was literally spend 10 minutes running to this random spot on foot, kill 5 mobs that die in one hit. Having also played all the story quests available, only the voiced cutscenes really stand out (of which there are only 2, Intro and Rank 15). The rest is just your stereotypical JRPG/Animu mindless rambling banter scrolling by in the chat log, delivered by stiff puppets. If they want they want this big epic story to be the games niche/hook, they're going to have to really step it up. Faction points build too slowly for me to gamble on these first quests, so I'm still sitting on mine, but I've never seen anyone mention they're any more compelling than Battle or Field Leves.

 

[notworksafe]

Gotta love when people put on those specially-tinted glasses and think any MMO lacks a grind. If there are un-fun elements that lead to progression or success, then there is a grind - and every single MMO that I've ever played has elements matching that description and usually in abundance. I love the genre, but lets get real here.

No game has eliminated the grind, that's for sure. Many have just obscured it. Those games give varied content that isn't just the same old stuff that gets repetitive.

FFXIV gives a few quests every 10 levels (or so, not 100% sure on when the class quest kicks in) and limits you to a max of eight battle quests in a 36 hour period. That's just not something an MMO does anymore. Even free MMOs give more content then that.

 

[JWong]

Doing a quest for exp is still grinding.

IMO grinding is doing repetitive tasks that are not enjoyable.

Spoiler

AKA quests for killing effing rats and other rodents in FFXIV. I couldn't even stand 30 minutes of this.

WoW provides a lot of different quests to go through that involves lore and allows the player to explore the world. It's a lot better there, and I don't consider it a grind.

 

[Londa]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

 

[esquire]

4/10? That is not a positive review... what happened to Final Fantasy? I haven't played the series since Final Fantasy X-2 (which I barely got started on), but that has to be the lowest score ever given to a Final Fantasy game. I remember when these games used to be the sole reason why I would buy a new video game console.

 

[notworksafe]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

Once again, a failure. I pointed out more MMOs than just WoW. Plenty of MMOs have found a way to make a grind more enjoyable.

However I don't need to explain that to you, right? I'm sure you've played plenty of non-FF MMOs and come from a reasonable place to judge.

 

[Vinci]

No game has eliminated the grind, that's for sure. Many have just obscured it. Those games give varied content that isn't just the same old stuff that gets repetitive.

Yes, I know many modern ones attempt to obscure it, but people mentioning WoW? Really? Granted, I haven't played the thing in a while, but it sure as hell isn't a poster child for 'lacking a grind.'

FFXIV gives a few quests every 10 levels (or so, not 100% sure on when the class quest kicks in) and limits you to a max of eight battle quests in a 36 hour period. That's just not something an MMO does anymore. Even free MMOs give more content then that.

If that's accurate, then yes, that is infinitely stupid.

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

I even called people out for saying WoW lacked a grind, but what you're doing right here? This is bullshit. I'm all for varying experiences in MMOs. Hell, I was subbed to three at a time for several years due to these differences. But for the sort of game that it is, WoW is by far the most honed version and anything that releases that bears even a fleeting resemblance to it is going to be compared to it, whether you deem it fair or not. Doing anything with a game's design that makes the experience inconvenient is stupid. It's just outright dumb.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

Why do you hate WoW again?

edit: Please cite specific examples from the game.

 

[HappyBivouac]

To give some perspective, a few weeks before launch they released some kind of official statement saying the game would take up 22 GB of hdd space at launch. As it stands right now, I believe it's less then 10 GB.

You can view this in either a positive or negative light, though. I believe they have tons of content that they wanted to have in, but decided to wait it out and see how players responded to (the clusterfuck of) what is there currently. We're supposed to have some kind of update within a very short time, so hopefully this gets some more content in and addresses then horrible systems and lack of basic functions in the game right now.

Either way, it's obvious the game is not currently what it's supposed to be. They should've done a simultaneous launch in March.

4/10? That is not a positive review... what happened to Final Fantasy? I haven't played the series since Final Fantasy X-2 (which I barely got started on), but that has to be the lowest score ever given to a Final Fantasy game. I remember when these games used to be the sole reason why I would buy a new video game console.

It's essentially a review of an unfinished game. But it's square-enix's fault for thinking they could get away with releasing the game first, then finishing it later.

 

[notworksafe]

Yes, I know many modern ones attempt to obscure it, but people mentioning WoW? Really? Granted, I haven't played the thing in a while, but it sure as hell isn't a poster child for 'lacking a grind.'

Anymore, it's actually really improved. The quests have been redone in a way to make them more interesting, or you can skip the quests and get XP only from dungeons, or from PVP, or (soon) from stuff like mining and other gathering professions.

There are still games that do a better job at obscuring the grind, but I think WoW is an easy enough example. Having played the beta, I think Cataclysm will only improve upon what has been added to WoW so far.

 

[LowParry]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

Ahhhh...true colors are exposed. At last!

 

[Painraze]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

And now the troll reveals itself.

edit: beaten :lol

 

[Vinci]

Anymore, it's actually really improved. The quests have been redone in a way to make them more interesting, or you can skip the quests and get XP only from dungeons, or from PVP, or (soon) from stuff like mining and other gathering professions.

There are still games that do a better job at obscuring the grind, but I think WoW is an easy enough example. Having played the beta, I think Cataclysm will only improve upon what has been added to WoW so far.

Oh, okay. Nice to know they've enhanced it in that area.

 

[Iadien]

IMO grinding is doing repetitive tasks that are not enjoyable.

Spoiler

AKA quests for killing effing rats and other rodents in FFXIV. I couldn't even stand 30 minutes of this.

WoW provides a lot of different quests to go through that involves lore and allows the player to explore the world. It's a lot better there, and I don't consider it a grind.

Most of the quests in WoW are collection quests and kill quests, same as any other MMO.

 

[notworksafe]

In Vanilla, yes. In Burning Crusade that changed a bit, and in Wrath of the Lich King it's changed quite a lot. Sure, there are the "Kill X" quests. They are intermixed with other quest types and don't seem nearly as bad because you get a change up very often. In Cataclysm this style will be added to the whole Vanilla world.

The main complaint I think people are bringing up in relation to the grind in FFXIV is that the quest types aren't changed up. Plus, there just isn't very many of them. Too much time is spent just in XP parties killing mobs, just like FFXI.

 

[Orin GA]

Warhammer was 10x better and had a shit load of content than FF14 at launch. What killed warhammers subscription numbers, was the inbalance in population and early end gave rvr content.

The "Reviews for MMO's at launch are worthless" comments are bullshit. I WANT to know what Im getting into before I buy a game I may not even be playing past the first month. You think the developers are gonna tell us? Stop trying to sugar coat the mess. Yea, the game may get better in time but people want to know whats happening NOW.

No Mail System
Questing Limits (LOL)
No Auction House
Limited Content
Dumb Menu System
No Inventory Sort
Timed Level Caps
Crap Chat Interface

and that aint even half the list

Its like Square was intentionally making everything half assed so people would find out about the lack of content later than sooner.

 

[JORMBO]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

In my post I mentioned all the different things you can do in WOW while leveling. I consider the "grind" to be doing repetitive tasks that aren't much fun to get to a higher point in the game. When I log into WOW they normally mix things up enough so that I'm always having fun and it doesn't feel too repetitive. This isn't always true, and it can feel like a grind at times, but overall it's a more enjoyable leveling process then most other games I've played.

 

[Einbroch]

The sad thing is that every MMO that launches has to be better than WoW is NOW. Not when it launched, not two years ago...now.

It's incredibly difficult for a brand new game to compete with a game that has had six years of tuning and added content.

 

[Painraze]

The sad thing is that every MMO that launches has to be better than WoW is NOW. Not when it launched, not two years ago...now.

It's incredibly difficult for a brand new game to compete with a game that has had six years of tuning and added content.

Uh FF14 isn't even close to the quality of WoW even at WoW's launch.

I love people trying to rewrite history like WoW wasn't good the day it came out. The biggest problem WoW had was server side... they way underestimated how well their game would sell which lead to servers being out, lag, queues all that whole mess.

Shit, I was in the closed beta for WoW and it was in much better shape than 99% of the MMOs that come to retail.

 

[Bisonian]

It's useless to even reason with WoWfans. No matter what, they will believe that game is grindless and the end all be all of MMO's. Not everyone will like the game, and not all games have to be like this game.

Every argument comparing the game to any other game is usually overblown and giving WoW way too much credit.

Its best to just let WoWfans talk crazy talk.

And now the troll reveals itself.

edit: beaten :lol

She revealed herself pretty much day 1 in the Alpha/Beta threads. I'm amazed that detective-GAF hasn't outed her as a viral marketer for this shitball game yet.

I'm in the camp that 4.0 is way too high. It's like the game hasn't learned anything about how user interfaces in games have evolved in the last 20 years. It's almost a comprehensive guide on how to poorly design a video game. I really wish someone would hold Square-Enix to the fire and make them defend some of the things that go on in this crap. Maybe a few more of these types of reviews and we'll be on our way to that.

 

[notworksafe]

The sad thing is that every MMO that launches has to be better than WoW is NOW. Not when it launched, not two years ago...now.

It's incredibly difficult for a brand new game to compete with a game that has had six years of tuning and added content.

Not to get too offtopic but I think SWTOR may be the game to do that. From what I've read and seen, I think Bioware "gets it".

 

[Einbroch]

Uh FF14 isn't even close to the quality of WoW even at WoW's launch.

I love people trying to rewrite history like WoW wasn't good the day it came out. The biggest problem WoW had was server side... they way underestimated how well their game would sell which lead to servers being out, lag, queues all that whole mess.

Shit, I was in the closed beta for WoW and it was in much better shape than 99% of the MMOs that come to retail.

Not defending FFXIV. FFXIV is really awful.

I was just making a general statement.

 

[Iadien]

In Vanilla, yes. In Burning Crusade that changed a bit, and in Wrath of the Lich King it's changed quite a lot. Sure, there are the "Kill X" quests. They are intermixed with other quest types and don't seem nearly as bad because you get a change up very often. In Cataclysm this style will be added to the whole Vanilla world.

The main complaint I think people are bringing up in relation to the grind in FFXIV is that the quest types aren't changed up. Plus, there just isn't very many of them. Too much time is spent just in XP parties killing mobs, just like FFXI.

This can be said for most launch MMOs. WoW, EQ2, etc. were all this way at launch and are now much better games.

ToR's starting quests are immersive with full voice acting, etc. hopefully ToR breaks the mold and has a great quest system throughout the entire game.

 

[Thoraxes]

As of right now, i'm really liking FFXIV, and I plan on keeping my sub going as well as re-subbing WoW once 4.0.2 hits as well.

Playing both games is really fun, and each game compliments each other well.

For FFXIV, I find that I enjoy longer play sessions, and that I tend to stay and play a lot longer over long periods of time. I also really like the very horizontal progression, and that I always feel like i'm progressing, even over the course of 3 weeks. I like the slower pace.

With WoW, I find that I usually log on quickly to do a daily dungeon, PvP, or normal dailies, and then log off till raid time. I kind of play it like i'm on crack. It's a quick fix that I can get in short bursts, but if I want to play it long, I can. A very vertical game in terms of progression.

tl;dr: I'm subbing both games because both games are fun to play.

Also, I'm at the point now where I almost never read reviews. Gamespot also didn't seem like they played all of the content of the game, nor did they get any one job to max level. I have no clue what's at 50, but i'm guessing something has to be more interesting once you get into the later portions of the game.

I've liked so many games that people have hated (Cubivore, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, FFXIII, Other M, etc.) that I realize I keep myself from having fun if I rely on reviews. My opinion matters the most to me.

 

[notworksafe]

This can be said for most launch MMOs. WoW, EQ2, etc. were all this way at launch and are now much better games.

Again, this game is coming out in 2010. Not 2002, not 2004, not 2008. It's not competing with 2004 WoW or 2004 EQ2. It's competing with MMOs that are out in 2010.

Hell now that games like LotRO, EQ2, and DDO are free to play you could say that better value can be had for zero dollars. :lol

 

[Ferrio]

You have to grow to love each mmo. What kind of gamer only plays a game when it's good?

Ouch my brain.

 

[LowParry]

This can be said for most launch MMOs. WoW, EQ2, etc. were all this way at launch and are now much better games.

Ugh...no. XIV is lacking the content to anything outside of the pick up a quest, do it, turn in. Done. The variety right now is too stupid and boring as hell. Unless things have changed, you can't even get in groups for the chain exp grind runs in XIV. That's what I loved about XI. Other MMO's have your questing. They also had instances where you could group together instead of finding a spot in the open world and bring mobs to you. There's also pvp (though EQ2 did not do this). XIV feels bare bones. And needs to be changed asap.

 

[demosthenes]

In Vanilla, yes. In Burning Crusade that changed a bit, and in Wrath of the Lich King it's changed quite a lot. Sure, there are the "Kill X" quests. They are intermixed with other quest types and don't seem nearly as bad because you get a change up very often. In Cataclysm this style will be added to the whole Vanilla world.

The main complaint I think people are bringing up in relation to the grind in FFXIV is that the quest types aren't changed up. Plus, there just isn't very many of them. Too much time is spent just in XP parties killing mobs, just like FFXI.

Nobody is saying FFXIV is a great game.

However we believe those that will stay after the free month that SE will fix the problems and with time become a much better game. I don't think the game today will be recognizable in 6 months.

edit: I really enjoy the foundation of XIV, and think it can turn into a great game.

 

[Vinci]

Not to get too offtopic but I think SWTOR may be the game to do that. From what I've read and seen, I think Bioware "gets it".

It's not that they 'get it,' so much as they have the budget to get it right.