Support NeoGAF

[iammeiam]

I feel there's a difference between "here some skills, so you can help with certain dps mechanics and output more damage when necessary" and "I need moar dps! 20k crit fell cleavesss yess, give me moar numbers!" mentality from some tanks.

The problem they're going to continue to run into is that if you give people tools, a segment of the population is going to try to be as effective as humanly possible with those tools. The only area for actual meaningful growth they give tanks is in their personal damage. DPS stances, a boatload of DPS skills, that they decided to 'fix' WAR by adding them to the "will never actually want to use threat combo" pile. The only actual way for tanks to improve and, like, do anything with the toolset they've been handed is to focus on their DPS.

Which they keep adding skills to emphasize, and then doubling back to remove the damage because lolbalance. Mitigating damage hasn't evolved, like, at all. Tank DPS has.

As much as dmg reduction is way more useful than VIT is, dosn't mean HP is not important to survavility. I've seen tanks with already several thousand less HP with STR acc. Those numbers matters and is only going to get worse.

STR vs VIT does not matter in practical terms for anything in the game outside of, maybe, week one world progression on a raid tier. Even in the biggest gear wall fight the game has ever seen, once tanks had a few raid pieces on the left side they started dropping VIT for STR because extra VIT is useless. Much like accuracy, VIT until you hit the minimum threshold and every point over is wasted unless you can definitively save healer GCDs consistently with VIT stacking and afaik there's no way to currently do that. There is nothing in SB that throwing more VIT at will help currently, and the absolute earliest we might even see something tuned that close would be the 4.1 super savage patch, where they could literally tune tank busters to only be survivable in full fending BiS. And even then, we probably won't, because that makes it not a gameplay mechanic, it's just a gear check.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

How was the tanking in TERA?

To put it simply, from when I played there was two tanks.

Warrior, the dodge tank.

Lancer, the shield tank.

As a Warrior, you're main method of dealing with damage was literally dodging enemy attacks.

Lancer's main method of dealing with damage is active blocking with their shield. The shield also reduces the damage that people take when behind the lancer as well.

They've added some more I believe but I haven't played the game in a long time so I can't say for sure what they do.

But right out the gate TERA had two vastly different tanking jobs. The main thing to look at here is how they tank.

The way I see it every tank ultimately applies some moves to enemies at the start of a fight that cause them to have highest aggro, making them the focus of attacks. What's important however when it comes to tanking variety is what they do after that point, not before.


In FFXIV with the three tanking jobs, they all tank in an identical manner, that is they aggro enemies or the boss, then pop one of their many "reduce X damage for X seconds" cds when necessary. In terms of dealing with hits, that's the main component for all three jobs.

If you're looking for great variety and creativity in how the tanks actually tank things, unfortunately you have to look towards other games for that. I actually wish that SE looked towards other games when their were making 2.0 but whatever they looked at they took the wrong lessons to heart imo at least when it comes to tanks.

 

[v1perz53]

Some of my own thoughts on the tanking stuff:

- Yes, neither Vit nor Str mitigate anything. But more Vit gives more HP, which means more wiggle room for the healer to work in DPS abilities without worrying about the tank dying in the next hit or two, so it increases group DPS in that way, making it easier for healers to safely participate. Vit isn't terribly interesting as a tanking stat though, to be sure. But it DOES help tanking, especially with this game's model of "healers can DPS in downtime, and can burst heal people up quickly" leading to some emergent gameplay of chicken, or let the tank's HP go as low as you safely can before healing.

- Tank scaling was switched from Vit to Str at least partially because of the way the resurrection debuff works now. Since it doesn't affect Vit or HP anymore, they made tanks scale with Str so they would get a DPS penalty when raised like everyone else. Swapping scaling back to Vit wouldn't work because it would allow them to bypass that mechanic. They could just make the debuff a flat -dmg modifier which would fix this, but who knows how possible that is to implement.

- Obviously tanks should be pushing for as much DPS as possible. What the hell else is there to do while tanking otherwise? Enmity is binary, and generally can be ignored, but even when it is a concern there's one combo for each tanks and one AoE ability basically that is optimal for threat, so certainly maintaining enmity isn't interesting in itself. Trying to be "defensive" in this game as a tank I guess means popping CDs at the right time, but they are on such long CDs that you can't really make engaging gameplay out of that. So the only thing left is to push DPS as much as possible. I kind of feel like the "tanks should be in tank stance as little as possible and push as much DPS as they can" was emergent gameplay because it was the only thing players could control and improve on available in the game. I wouldn't mind a couple "active mitigation" like tools similar to WoW that gave you more active control over your defenses as a tank in a moment to moment basis, but certainly that is a future wish. Some of the new job gauges are a step in the right direction, but not quite enough to be truly engaging gameplay.

- 270 str accessories are clearly not long for this world. No game designers want you to be using stuff from last expansion. It invalidates the rewards from current content and punishes new people who didn't farm the old rewards. And because the only thing tanks can really do or control is increasing DPS, they will be used over current Vit accessories up until the point where content literally 1 shots a tank not using Vit stuff, and even then they will use a minimum number of Vit accessories not to get killed. So something else needs to change, the 270str stuff either needs its requirements changed or Str added to new accessories, or this issue will never go away.

 

[Trojita]

Are VPN's like WTFast still regularly used? I used to use it all the time with really noticeable results when connecting to the canadian servers from the east coast. Are east coasters noticing improvements with a vpn connection to the west coast servers?

 

[Edzi]

Highly depends on the fight.

Do you have an example? I'm trying to become more optimal since the newer dungeons/trials seem to actually hit pretty hard.

 

[kromeo]

What about the DPS skills then? Why does WAR need the ability to do many Fell Cleaves? Why does PLD get a big self DPS buff and their own version of Fell Cleave? Why does stance dancing have drawbacks like GCD/Mana costs/Gauge costs?

If they didn't want tanks to be wannabe DPS, then don't give them wannabe DPS tools?

It's just the way the game's been designed, doesn't matter what job you play, actual tanking or healing has always been a secondary concern behind how much damage you can spam out

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

What about the DPS skills then? Why does WAR need the ability to do many Fell Cleaves? Why does PLD get a big self DPS buff and their own version of Fell Cleave? Why does stance dancing have drawbacks like GCD/Mana costs/Gauge costs?

If they didn't want tanks to be wannabe DPS, then don't give them wannabe DPS tools?

Yeah, they want tanks to stay in tank stance but they refuse to make tanking more interesting.

They keep piling on DPS skills with each expansion then wonder why tanks don't want to stick in boring stance.

Tanks would stay in tank stance if the enemy/encounter/tank skill design encouraged it. TERA did it. Blade & Soul technically did it too even though there's no strict role divide but Blade Master and Kung Fu Master can spec some of their skills to generate more aggro so dungeon bosses will focus on them mostly.

But they do everything possible to push you into DPS stance if you want to have some fun.

 

[LordKasual]

I could have sworn this was already fixed when they removed Accuracy and added Tenacity to tank gear???

What, is the stat weakly weighted or something?

On the one hand I'd love for one of the LL Q&A questions to essentially be "guys what are you even trying to do with tanks why even give them DPS stances at this point", but on the other we'd probably just get another WHM-style calm down and wait for the patch notes.

The answer to this is obvious. Because pure tanking/healing is boring, and balancing the classes around letting them put out some DPS is the safest option.

If they built content around requiring tanks to balance cooldowns and tank skills, and healers to focus on healing, the same way that DPS watch their rotations, then i wager that fucking nothing would ever get completed in this game lol

 

[Stone Ocean]

Do you have an example? I'm trying to become more optimal since the newer dungeons/trials seem to actually hit pretty hard.

It's hard to explain, but basically you'll have to figure out CD rotations on a fight by fight basis. Sometimes Holmgang is useful in certain tankbusters so you use it instead of a damage reduction CD, sometimes it doesn't work on the boss busters so you ignore it, sometimes the boss or an add can crit so you'll throw Conva+Awareness into the mix, otherwise you don't even use Awareness, that kind of stuff

Yeah, they want tanks to stay in tank stance but they refuse to make tanking more interesting.

They keep piling on DPS skills with each expansion then wonder why tanks don't want to stick in boring stance.

Tanks would stay in tank stance if the enemy/encounter/tank skill design encouraged it.

But they do everything possible to push you into DPS stance if you want to have some fun.

Maybe it's time to remove the damage reduction from the tank stance and make DPS stances more interesting than "well you don't do 15% less damage and get an extra little effect, I guess?"

I could have sworn this was already fixed when they removed Accuracy and added Tenacity to tank gear???

What, is the stat weakly weighted or something?

Tenacity is all but confirmed garbage

 

[iammeiam]

Direct Hit is the best tank secondary.

Direct Hit cannot appear on tank gear.

Tenacity is bad.

- Yes, neither Vit nor Str mitigate anything. But more Vit gives more HP, which means more wiggle room for the healer to work in DPS abilities without worrying about the tank dying in the next hit or two, so it increases group DPS in that way, making it easier for healers to safely participate. Vit isn't terribly interesting as a tanking stat though, to be sure. But it DOES help tanking, especially with this game's model of "healers can DPS in downtime, and can burst heal people up quickly" leading to some emergent gameplay of chicken, or let the tank's HP go as low as you safely can before healing.

I still don't think this is true; I can't think of anything in SB where my thought was "this tank does not have enough HP, time to spam heal." It's either the same approach as always--chuck up a shield, ED when they drop low, volume of healing output is related to the rate the tank is taking damage, not their total HP pool--or just panicked healbombing because ok sure pull three packs at once and have all your CDs wear off before you finish the pull, THAT'S FINE. If I'm back-to-back Benefic 2ing and still not keeping up with damage, more HP just means you die a GCD later, not that you survive or that I get more damage out.

- 270 str accessories are clearly not long for this world. No game designers want you to be using stuff from last expansion. It invalidates the rewards from current content and punishes new people who didn't farm the old rewards. And because the only thing tanks can really do or control is increasing DPS, they will be used over current Vit accessories up until the point where content literally 1 shots a tank not using Vit stuff, and even then they will use a minimum number of Vit accessories not to get killed. So something else needs to change, the 270str stuff either needs its requirements changed or Str added to new accessories, or this issue will never go away.

The problem is that if their solution is to just job-lock the 270 gear (and possibly render a lot of more casual players with no usable tank right side if they were sharing accessories between DPS and tank), it still doesn't make current fending gear worth it. The original VIT+STR move cited, in part, not wanting tanks to feel obligated to take on the expense of pentamelding out crafted. If they remove a solid way of getting main stat on accessories, we're going to see the return of pentamelded crafted for tanks. The only way to make the raid and tome fending gear worth it is to fix that gear; breaking everything else just shifts the problem around.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Some of my own thoughts on the tanking stuff:

- Yes, neither Vit nor Str mitigate anything. But more Vit gives more HP, which means more wiggle room for the healer to work in DPS abilities without worrying about the tank dying in the next hit or two, so it increases group DPS in that way, making it easier for healers to safely participate. Vit isn't terribly interesting as a tanking stat though, to be sure. But it DOES help tanking, especially with this game's model of "healers can DPS in downtime, and can burst heal people up quickly" leading to some emergent gameplay of chicken, or let the tank's HP go as low as you safely can before healing.

I'm still healing the same amount of damage at the same time regardless of how much HP you have. If I time a heal right after a tankbuster goes off, you'll still get topped off all the same.

If you don't have enough HP, you die. If you do, you don't. It's as binary as that. If you have two tanks, one with 30k HP and the other with 50, and the boss hits them for 25 with another hit coming up next, both tanks needs to be topped off immediatly. Having more HP doesn't make keeping tanks alive any easier otherwise, at best it helps dungeon runs with big-ass pulls, at worse you're throwing 500~ DPS in the garbage for no reason.

 

[scy]

If Tenacity were to replaced with Parry, there's a good chance that'd be an improvement as far as a tank survivability stat is concerned.

- 270 str accessories are clearly not long for this world. No game designers want you to be using stuff from last expansion. It invalidates the rewards from current content and punishes new people who didn't farm the old rewards.

I'm mostly on the side of "Sure, they could take them but why?" Or, rather, do something to current Fending so that people feel actually like replacing old Slaying with it rather than outright removing it. Do something to not make tanks into pentameld crafted every tier. I'm personally hoping for 50% the VIT as STR on them, since they're so against the idea of giving them VIT = Damage stat, but I'm hoping that their change simply means "It is now better than Slaying."

Do you have an example? I'm trying to become more optimal since the newer dungeons/trials seem to actually hit pretty hard.

Rampart(RA) - Raw Intuition / Awareness(RA) - Vengeance - Thrill / Conv(RA) - Holmgang are your basic cooldown sets to use. That's 90s, 90s, 120s, 120s, 180s. Map them to the fight based on when tank busters occur and that's about it, really? You can add Reprisal in there as a 60s cooldown if you want but I typically save that for raid mitigation rather than personal. If you're in tank stance, Equilibrium is a like ~10k heal so I treat it as a 16-20% or so cooldown on a 60s timer, it just has to be used after damage rather than before.

For going into fights blind, I generally go in essentially that priority ordering based on cooldown timer; if anything ends up being up to the point I lose a use, I'll move into pairing things off for better use but, again, that's a fight dependent thing. So, for instance, Susano EX operates on a 60s cycle for his raid-wide AoE (I throw Reprisal at the triple Ukehi) and tankbuster. You, however, only ever tank him every other tankbuster cycle so it's effectively a 120s rotation as far as you're concerned. This means you can throw literally every cooldown you have at it if you wanted, though I usually Thrill / Conv during Levinbolt mechanics and Rampart+Vengeance Stormsplitter with Raw Intuition 'whenever' since it's mainly a maintenance damage cooldown, especially since Awareness usually hits the chopping block for Shirk.

 

[studyguy]

The best survival strat in this game is still to burn things faster than they can burn you, if you can survive the tank buster, then you're already doing what you need to do. It's not on the tanks, it's on the devs to fix the problem they created. Vit scaling was the solution we all needed and I had expected them to keep it going forward. Lo and behold we fuck it up for everyone.

 

[Edzi]

If Tenacity were to replaced with Parry, there's a good chance that'd be an improvement as far as a tank survivability stat is concerned.



I'm mostly on the side of "Sure, they could take them but why?" Or, rather, do something to current Fending so that people feel actually like replacing old Slaying with it rather than outright removing it. Do something to not make tanks into pentameld crafted every tier. I'm personally hoping for 50% the VIT as STR on them, since they're so against the idea of giving them VIT = Damage stat, but I'm hoping that their change simply means "It is now better than Slaying."



Rampart(RA) - Raw Intuition / Awareness(RA) - Vengeance - Thrill / Conv(RA) - Holmgang are your basic cooldown sets to use. That's 90s, 90s, 120s, 120s, 180s. Map them to the fight based on when tank busters occur and that's about it, really? You can add Reprisal in there as a 60s cooldown if you want but I typically save that for raid mitigation rather than personal. If you're in tank stance, Equilibrium is a like ~10k heal so I treat it as a 16-20% or so cooldown on a 60s timer, it just has to be used after damage rather than before.

For going into fights blind, I generally go in essentially that priority ordering based on cooldown timer; if anything ends up being up to the point I lose a use, I'll move into pairing things off for better use but, again, that's a fight dependent thing. So, for instance, Susano EX operates on a 60s cycle for his raid-wide AoE (I throw Reprisal at the triple Ukehi) and tankbuster. You, however, only ever tank him every other tankbuster cycle so it's effectively a 120s rotation as far as you're concerned. This means you can throw literally every cooldown you have at it if you wanted, though I usually Thrill / Conv during Levinbolt mechanics and Rampart+Vengeance Stormsplitter with Raw Intuition 'whenever' since it's mainly a maintenance damage cooldown, especially since Awareness usually hits the chopping block for Shirk.

Thanks, appreciate it. Uh, what does RA stand for? lol

 

[scy]

I am still at a loss at the rationale of they can't pair the two because expected HP and damage and etc. etc. when they control the VIT vs Incoming Damage in design and AP ratios are a thing. 90% VIT contribution basically has i320 VIT == full Slaying right side? Like ... what?

Thanks, appreciate it. Uh, what does RA stand for? lol

Role Action; just wanted to denote which ones you'd have to go and grab from there. I treat Rampart+Conv+Reprisal as staples, alongside Provoke, so it's usually Shirk for raids / tank swaps and Awareness (on WAR) for making Raw Intuition safer.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

There's been multiple cases made against her, you've (or anyone) yet to explain why/what you like about her so much,

Edit: outside of being eye candy e_e

Outside of being eye candy? Have you not read my previous posts? I've never mentioned once that I like her because she's hot. o.o Also, your avatar is from Xenogears. Dont you have good taste like me? haha

Also, people have given you legit reasons to why they like her. Stop being ignorant, lmao.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

It's hard to explain, but basically you'll have to figure out CD rotations on a fight by fight basis. Sometimes Holmgang is useful in certain tankbusters so you use it instead of a damage reduction CD, sometimes it doesn't work on the boss busters so you ignore it, sometimes the boss or an add can crit so you'll throw Conva+Awareness into the mix, otherwise you don't even use Awareness, that kind of stuff

Maybe it's time to remove the damage reduction from the tank stance and make DPS stances more interesting than "well you don't do 15% less damage and get an extra little effect, I guess?"

I'd put that in the realm of a fantasy suggestion since there is probably a zero percent chance of that happening. This game came out in 2012 and since then they haven't done anything in terms of making the actual tanking part of tanking more interesting.

I think it's safe to say they don't consider it an issue or concern in the slightest.

But to entertain the fantasy a little, if I got air dropped onto Squeenix HQ with the mission of making the tanks interesting the first thing I would do is obliterate all the current tank CDs in the game.

In my mind if you have multiple tanks that all tank things through the same mechanics with slight variations then you've failed to craft variety. I'd make it so all three tanks have very different playstyles in terms of how they tank.

Also tank stance would be what you use on bosses all the time when MTing. The reason people flee tank stance currently is because of the dearth of interesting tank mechanics and boss design. Proper engaging design and active mitigation would no longer result in people fleeing tank stance to try and find something fun to engage with, which currently is the new DPS moves they keep giving tanks every expansion.

When playing TERA, if you asked me to switch to DPS stance in the middle of a fight I would ask you "Why would I want to do that".

If you ask me that question in FFXIV, I would say "Have you been paying attention? I switched to DPS stance a long while ago".

I could go on about a number of thoughts I have but this post is long enough I think.

 

[studyguy]

I am still at a loss at the rationale of they can't pair the two because expected HP and damage and etc. etc. when they control the VIT vs Incoming Damage in design and AP ratios are a thing. 90% VIT contribution basically has i320 VIT == full Slaying right side? Like ... what?

I mean, their response was something to do with HP inflation though, which I'm not entirely sure how that specifically works. Does hooking VIT scaling somehow impact HP scaling? It sure didn't seem to in the past iirc. Like they create a prison for themselves then. They can't give us like extra stats I'd imagine. Scaling down VIT on the fending to add on some STR means their supposed exact HP calculations are thrown off for future instances, Shit sounds wonky, it's all over bad.

 

[Isaccard]

Outside of being eye candy? Have you not read my previous posts? I've never mentioned once that I like her because she's hot. o.o Also, your avatar is from Xenogears. Dont you have good taste like me? haha

Also, people have given you legit reasons to why they like her. Stop being ignorant, lmao.

Didn't mean you specifically; but her appearance toward the later half of the game is the only praise that I've seen she's been given by anyone.

Spoiler

(which is another problem in and of itself but I digress)

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I've seen your posts on Lyse, and they arent saying much of anything? I get that you (or anyone else who does) do like her (and thats okay!), but I still remain ignorant as to why

 

[ebil]

I mean, their response was something to do with HP inflation though, which I'm not entirely sure how that specifically works. Does hooking VIT scaling somehow impact HP scaling? It sure didn't seem to in the past iirc.

I still fail to understand how tying Attack Power to a stat which they control the amount you get contributes to HP inflation.

If anything, they might be planning to increase VIT upgrades considerably more with each tier, which would lead to... Attack Power inflation for tanks if VIT factored in AP. But the reverse makes 0 sense.

Edit: Oh, it's probably because it's not 1:1 on VIT vs. STR accessories, but it still makes no sense as there's more VIT on a VIT accessory than there's STR on a STR accessory. I really don't get their reasoning.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

I personally dislike her because they basically wiped my favourite scion's personality and history to make room for her. I would like her more if she was just a completely new character altogether instead.

The thing with that is it wouldn't make sense if she was a new character. I think as

Spoiler

Lyse she really comes out of her shell and sure she still is sad that Papalymo died but the whole expansion is showing her where her place should be in life. I'm getting that so many people hate her in this thread because of her change to resistance leader.
Why didn't Rauhbahn get the job? etc etc. In my opinion, he did not get the job because he already has massive duties in Ul'dah and he's an eorzean alliance leader. Why did Lyse get the job? Conrad saw a lot of potential in her and basically from the start of the expansion you are pointing her to that job. She wants to free Ala Mhigo after all, has a strong voice,
and some of her scenes were memorable for me, especially the ones with Fordola and the fact she wanted to bring her and Zenos to justice. Furthermore, this has a lot to do with her father Curtis as well and making him proud of his daughter. Why is Lyse's father black? We don't know, actually and I get that a white woman saving Ala Mhigo from Zenos may be seen as racist to people in this thread. In the end, it's obvious Lyse is a complete leader of Eorzea and not a side character scion. We will see much more of what she can do. Stormblood was a whole lesson for Lyse to see her people drown in blood and her narrations are great. She DOES hit on you and that's fair to say she detracts from her serious role a bit but not entirely. The Lyse you see in the beginning and the Lady in Red are completely different characters.

 

[Ozzykamikaze]

To put it simply, from when I played there was two tanks.

Warrior, the dodge tank.

Lancer, the shield tank.

As a Warrior, you're main method of dealing with damage was literally dodging enemy attacks.

Lancer's main method of dealing with damage is active blocking with their shield. The shield also reduces the damage that people take when behind the lancer as well.

They've added some more I believe but I haven't played the game in a long time so I can't say for sure what they do.

But right out the gate TERA had two vastly different tanking jobs. The main thing to look at here is how they tank.

The way I see it every tank ultimately applies some moves to enemies at the start of a fight that cause them to have highest aggro, making them the focus of attacks. What's important however when it comes to tanking variety is what they do after that point, not before.


In FFXIV with the three tanking jobs, they all tank in an identical manner, that is they aggro enemies or the boss, then pop one of their many "reduce X damage for X seconds" cds when necessary. In terms of dealing with hits, that's the main component for all three jobs.

If you're looking for great variety and creativity in how the tanks actually tank things, unfortunately you have to look towards other games for that. I actually wish that SE looked towards other games when their were making 2.0 but whatever they looked at they took the wrong lessons to heart imo at least when it comes to tanks.

I agree with that. I main tank in XIV, and even the tanking in XI was more varied than it is now. I wouldn't mind some more variety. As it is, each cd is more a different shade of the same color. I don't think they'll change it now, unless they add a new tank that operates differently. Probably should have kept the (unintentional) Ninja tank for a different style.

 

[Trojita]

Lyse is that party member you want out of your party, but the game is forcing her on you with no way to replace her 😂

Hien is that cool character that never joins your team officially as a playable character 😭

 

[GodParticle]

While you can't turn off actual animations, you can turn off the effects of them. This can help with performance and visibility.

Go to Character Configuration -> Control Settings -> Character and look for Battle Effects settings - you can choose to Show all, Limited, or None for you, your party, and others but most people just set the effects to limited including myself because we still need some idea of what other players are doing.

I had already done that for party members. My issue is that it's hard to follow where I'm targeting(seeing which enemy has the soft lock) when I'm just pressing left/right in a huge mess of stuff going on. I guess I'll get used to it

 

[studyguy]

Lyse is that party member you want out of your party, but the game is forcing her on you with no way to replace her 😂

Hien is that cool character that never joins your team officially as a playable character 😭

Lyse confirmed for ChuChu tier.

 

[R0ckman]

To put it simply, from when I played there was two tanks.

Warrior, the dodge tank.

Lancer, the shield tank.

As a Warrior, you're main method of dealing with damage was literally dodging enemy attacks.

Lancer's main method of dealing with damage is active blocking with their shield. The shield also reduces the damage that people take when behind the lancer as well.

They've added some more I believe but I haven't played the game in a long time so I can't say for sure what they do.

But right out the gate TERA had two vastly different tanking jobs. The main thing to look at here is how they tank.

The way I see it every tank ultimately applies some moves to enemies at the start of a fight that cause them to have highest aggro, making them the focus of attacks. What's important however when it comes to tanking variety is what they do after that point, not before.


In FFXIV with the three tanking jobs, they all tank in an identical manner, that is they aggro enemies or the boss, then pop one of their many "reduce X damage for X seconds" cds when necessary. In terms of dealing with hits, that's the main component for all three jobs.

If you're looking for great variety and creativity in how the tanks actually tank things, unfortunately you have to look towards other games for that. I actually wish that SE looked towards other games when their were making 2.0 but whatever they looked at they took the wrong lessons to heart imo at least when it comes to tanks.

Problem is a mix of things but it might also be a fear of upsetting people who may see more unique job traits as a "cooler" ability than their mains and claiming it unfair. Maybe they are just scared of all that.

 

[duckroll]

To put it simply, from when I played there was two tanks.

Warrior, the dodge tank.

Lancer, the shield tank.

At first I thought you were talking about FFXIV and you were going to make a Dragoon floor tank joke.

 

[Isaccard]

Spoiler

The Lyse you see in the beginning and the Lady in Red are completely different characters.

And they both suck for all the same reasons

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I had already done that for party members. My issue is that it's hard to follow where I'm targeting(seeing which enemy has the soft lock) when I'm just pressing left/right in a huge mess of stuff going on. I guess I'll get used to it

Go to Hud layout, go to enemy list,
enlarge it and slide it closer to center.

 

[Trojita]

Wait a minute.....

 

[LordKasual]

This conversation is why I believe the MMO Holy Trinity needs to ultimately just die out...The concept of tanking in MMOs is sort of a conceptually weak thing that we've all decided to accept. I mean logically it doesn't even make sense.

- 270 str accessories are clearly not long for this world. No game designers want you to be using stuff from last expansion. It invalidates the rewards from current content and punishes new people who didn't farm the old rewards. And because the only thing tanks can really do or control is increasing DPS, they will be used over current Vit accessories up until the point where content literally 1 shots a tank not using Vit stuff, and even then they will use a minimum number of Vit accessories not to get killed. So something else needs to change, the 270str stuff either needs its requirements changed or Str added to new accessories, or this issue will never go away.

The only real problem we're seeing here is that the content just isn't pushing any of the classes to the point that their strengths become exclusive. Tanks are focusing on DPS right now because nothing is stressing their survivabilty. Healers are focusing on DPS because not enough of their time is spent managing heals. The reason people are saying the classes feel shallow and everyone is complaining about DPS is because the DPS are the only ones who consistently get to do what they're designed to do.

The trend of tanks being given significant DPS abilities is just there because Square knows that it simply isn't feasible to force tanks to do their role 100% of the time. They still have world content and dungeons to play. They still need something to do once they are no longer in danger of losing enmity. They still need wiggle room to help with DPS checks.

As for tank survivabiliy, again we just kind of have to wait. There hypothetically are a few mechanics that may make Vitality a more sought after stat:

• Tank busters start dealing true damage (unlikely, probably not a good idea anyway)
• Incoming healing debuffs
• Cleaves with absurd HP soaks
• Cleaves with target limits

And of course Tenacity, which (after a quick look) seems to provide a damage reduction at about 1%/per200 Tenacity...which is by no means "BAD" when you consider that we're at the piss end of the stat pool as far as new gear goes, and this damage reduction is effectively permanent throughout all following content. It is a low priority stat though with those weights, UNLESS there's some kind of threshold where the formula changes.


Either way, all of this is just complaining and spectulation until we get our hands on Omega Savage and see if Square actually decides to peel the gloves off.

But if it's like the current content, then yeah, i guess the loss of STR equipment is a pity for you guys.

 

[duckroll]

This conversation is why I believe the MMO Holy Trinity needs to ultimately just die out...The concept of tanking in MMOs is sort of a conceptually weak thing that we've all decided to accept. I mean logically it doesn't even make sense.

Is it really just a MMO thing when the same concept exists in strategy games, RTS, MOBAs, and even Overwatch? People like roles they can identify with gameplay-wise. Some people like to heal. Some people like to tank. Some people like to just hit stuff.

 

[GodParticle]

Go to Hud layout, go to enemy list,
enlarge it and slide it closer to center.

I'll give it a try. There are so many menu options that I'm probably not utilizing haha

 

[TheMrPliskin]

I've been camping for the Ixion fate all day and I'm not even sure why as I have a linkshell that should allow me to avoid this.

 

[iammeiam]

Either way, all of this is just complaining and spectulation until we get our hands on Omega Savage and see if Square actually decides to peel the gloves off.

But if it's like the current content, then yeah, i guess the loss of STR equipment is a pity for you guys.

This is a trap, though. The closest they've come to gloves off is Gordias, and the community will set itself on fire if Omega has a fight that even halfway looks like the back half of Gordias.

Which people still did in pentamelded crafted or full STR, because even then VIT was overkill. AFAIK none of our tanks in Gordias even bothered to roll on Fending, because it served no point. And that was, again, with content tuned so high people will riot if SE even tries to approach it in Omega. You fundamentally cannot force tanks into full VIT right side without creating an artificial and arbitrary gear wall with zero room for error. The only time this is even possible is the 4.1 Super Savage fight, where they can assume BiS. Anything tuned to be beatable at a substantially lower iLevel than BiS will basically by definition have to be tankable at lower HP than a full max-iLevel fending right side can offer.

And, I mean, if the idea was that they're going to drop content on us in two weeks that forces Fending accessories, they wouldn't at all be worried about 270 STR? It'd be a self-solving problem. And if they do deliver fights that mandate it, some tanks running around in outdate Slaying is going to be such a minor footnote in the carnage that follows we'll all forget this discussion ever happened.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

Didn't mean you specifically; but her appearance toward the later half of the game is the only praise that I've seen she's been given by anyone.

Spoiler

(which is another problem in and of itself but I digress)

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I've seen your posts on Lyse, and they arent saying much of anything? I get that you (or anyone else who does) do like her (and thats okay!), but I still remain ignorant as to why

Okay, at least you apologized instead of taking a sarcastic comment approach. Sure, that's a common piece of praise she gets because it is true that she is pretty. Anyway, my reasons for liking her are my opinion and I'm sure people dont share the same sentiment. As a different character

Spoiler

coming out of her mask

I felt there was a big change that happened. You had this poor helpless lady weeping about

Spoiler

Papalymo's death

but then as Lyse I feel that the character takes a very different approach to the story. Instead of being a bystander, she changes into a protagonist for this expansion. From the beginning in Gyr Abania it's clear she doesn't know what she wants and I understand that it is a point people dont like about her. Okay, there's nothing to like Lyse for in the beginning but she grew on me because I realized her voice acting isn't shite and I could really see that she saw her people dying. The narrations really tell us how she feels and alongside with Allisae, Yugiri, Hien, and the liberation of Doma she does get to realize how much people are suffering. She does realize tons of death/hurt in the Expansion and most notably the

Spoiler

wound of Y'shtola, the death of Conrad, the death of the soldier in the beginning, the terrible crimes Yotsuyu is responsible for, etc. Now let's look at all that death. Does it not change Lyse into someone who realizes what exactly she is up against? She's certainly well aware and she becomes stronger for it. She decides to not kill Fordola but lock her up instead and she wanted the very same thing for Zenos which is why she risked trying to stop him. She CARES about the constant death at the end and your character (the warrior of light) helps her realize that. You can downplay her as your character and say she's not suited for the resistance leadership and that's totally up to you but for me I saw that she wanted to be a leader. Once again, her voice actress is really good, almost as good as Melia in Xenoblade. Now, for the future patches you have Lyse in a VITAL role that will probably get her killed. If she gets killed and puts on a display of leadership qualities she obtains in the end, I do feel she will be a better character to the haters.
For those reasons, she is not Yda but she is Lyse and she came out of her shell as a more prominent character. Her sparring match at the top of the Reach shows that she is capable of being a leader. I mean who would be brave enough to fight the Warrior of light? What would she have done under the mask but cry about Papalymo in stormblood? I'm glad they unmasked her if anything. She doesn't suck for me in the end.
I welcome her as a new Eorzean leader and it was well earned, IMO. I've seen people say Mnaago did more than her but Mnaago wasn't always with you in this expansion and learning from you so i'm going to disagree there even if Mnaago sounding a horn suddenly makes her fit to be leader according to this thread. And I WILL say it again but her fighting scenes are amazing.

 

[Haly]

Korean MMOs have long since moved towards character action style combat with a very soft and malleable "trinity" and it works very well from a combat gameplay perspective. Instead of cast bars you have telegraphed animations (often with no indicators), instead of cooldowns you have spammable moves with 1-3 second invincibility frames. Thus, tanking becomes a mechanical thing, rather than the accumulation of defensive stats to meet some threshold.

And here in the West we've married MMOs and FPS to add range and depth of motion to the MMO experience.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

I've been camping for the Ixion fate all day and I'm not even sure why as I have a linkshell that should allow me to avoid this.

I have three linkshells for it.

Spoiler

heh.. heh

 

[PedroLumpy]

Is it really just a MMO thing when the same concept exists in strategy games, RTS, MOBAs, and even Overwatch? People like roles they can identify with gameplay-wise. Some people like to heal. Some people like to tank. Some people like to just hit stuff.

I think it's the aggro mechanic that kills it for MMOs. Those other examples you mention generally don't have a mechanic that forces someone to attack the tank.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I think it's the aggro mechanic that kills it for MMOs. Those other examples you mention generally don't have a mechanic that forces someone to attack the tank.

They don't have a specific mechanic, but tanks in other game styles have means to force people to not ignore them. Between taunts, bodyblocking and crowd control you more often than not have to get through them first either way.

At the very least PVE games need a concept of a frontline and a backline otherwise it turns into a mess.

 

[IvorB]

This conversation is why I believe the MMO Holy Trinity needs to ultimately just die out...The concept of tanking in MMOs is sort of a conceptually weak thing that we've all decided to accept. I mean logically it doesn't even make sense.

Yeah why would any creature of reasonable intelligence ignore the enemies hurting them the most in favour of attacking the guy waving his arms in front of them saying: ignore them please! Over here!

 

[Isaccard]

This conversation is why I believe the MMO Holy Trinity needs to ultimately just die out...The concept of tanking in MMOs is sort of a conceptually weak thing that we've all decided to accept. I mean logically it doesn't even make sense.

Is it really just a MMO thing when the same concept exists in strategy games, RTS, MOBAs, and even Overwatch? People like roles they can identify with gameplay-wise. Some people like to heal. Some people like to tank. Some people like to just hit stuff.

This is so funny, because there was a thread yesterday about Guild Wars 2 and nearly 2 pages of how those who played it for a time didn't care for it because of the lack of the holy trinity and how it's absence created other gameplay problems

 

[LordKasual]

Is it really just a MMO thing when the same concept exists in strategy games, RTS, MOBAs, and even Overwatch? People like roles they can identify with gameplay-wise. Some people like to heal. Some people like to tank. Some people like to just hit stuff.

My problem is that the dynamic in games like MOBAs or Overwatch is completely different than it is in MMOs. The concept of "hate" or "enmity" in those games is a logical concept. In MMOs, it's typically just a purely design based one.

In Overwatch, Reinhardt naturally draws attention from the enemy team because when he stands with his team, you are physically unable to damage them, and you're unable to get close because he's extremely deadly at melee range. In most situations you have to deal with him before you have access to the characters he's protecting.


Hate Tanks are basically just....illusionists with axes and swords, they somehow brainwash the enemy into believing they're the only target on the field. And i guess they're really, really good at roasting too, because they can pull the attention off squishies just by shouting insults.

And, I mean, if the idea was that they're going to drop content on us in two weeks that forces Fending accessories, they wouldn't at all be worried about 270 STR? It'd be a self-solving problem. And if they do deliver fights that mandate it, some tanks running around in outdate Slaying is going to be such a minor footnote in the carnage that follows we'll all forget this discussion ever happened.

Well, assuming they did actually release content that forced VIT/TEN (they probably wont), then i can imagine the point of removing it from previous content would be to avoid a 2.0 > 3.0 BRD situation where people got used to one freedom before abruptly being forced to deal with its removal.

But yeah, i'm pretty damn sure that the majority of people complaining about the difficulty of the current fights wouldn't even bother with ones that would be so difficult as to force everyone to stick and spec solely to their role.

 

[kromeo]

Really wish I could change between speakers and headphones without having to restart the game every time...

 

[Bebpo]

Wouldn't really need tanks if DPS could survive direct hits. Like if the bosses only had telegraphed attacks then DPS could just dodge those and survive without a tank. Could just be a situation where tanks have way more DEF/HP so they could be DPS that can take more hits. In character action games, a glass cannon build just means high damage out, high damage in, high risk build, but it's still doable.

But I get that if you did something like that in an MMO, no one would want the low risk, safer but lower damage DPS tank classes in their party because everyone just wants to max damage so it'd be nothing but glass cannons DPSs and healers.

 

[Wazzy]

I got my Susano Pike yesterday. It took all 10 runs and I even saw a dog drop but my roll was 12.

The farm group was really good and probably the best I've been in.

 

[kromeo]

Wouldn't really need tanks if DPS could survive direct hits. Like if the bosses only had telegraphed attacks then DPS could just dodge those and survive without a tank. Could just be a situation where tanks have way more DEF/HP so they could be DPS that can take more hits. In character action games, a glass cannon build just means high damage out, high damage in, high risk build, but it's still doable.

But I get that if you did something like that in an MMO, no one would want the low risk, safer but lower damage DPS tank classes in their party because everyone just wants to max damage so it'd be nothing but glass cannons DPSs and healers.

I preferred in XI when enemies didn't telegraph all their attacks or follow a set pattern, so stacking up on VIT or evasion as a tank actually had a benefit.. wouldn't work with the way this game is though

 

[Spehornoob]

Would increasing the damage mitigation given my Tenacity help curb some of the issues tanks are experiencing?

 

[MechaX]

I am glad I am not a tank and don't have to worry about this clusterfuck.

About to throw my hands up on SMN though and put it straight into alt job category though. It just seems backwards that the job demands so much to be decent and punishes so hard despite how you can't just jack into the Matrix and download 200% fight knowledge on your first go.

Oh course, watch them over-buff MCH right when I switch to BRD and continue the cycle anew.

 

[studyguy]

Would increasing the damage mitigation given my Tenacity help curb some of the issues tanks are experiencing?

All the secondaries in the world aren't going to save us once DPS stats start scaling higher.

Also comparisons to XI tanking are never going to apply to XIV tanking. They're two completely different set of worlds in terms of how you anticipate attacks and the general pace at which battle flows.