Supermanisdead
Member
13 beat you over the head with the definitions of l'cie, fal'cie and cie'th so much that one scene lightning basically recites a dictionary definition. The datalog is only for etro and buny-whatever and the overall fnc mess.
Final Fantasy XV SPOILER THREAD
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
13 beat you over the head with the definitions of l'cie, fal'cie and cie'th so much that one scene lightning basically recites a dictionary definition. The datalog is only for etro and buny-whatever and the overall fnc mess.
KojiKnight
Member
Not until far enough in the game as to leave you confused the first few hours, and even then it wasn't well explained. It's one of the reasons xiii-2 wss a much better game even story wise. It didn't invent a bunch if new terms.
Even xv shows they learned there, with made up terms at a minimum and most actually being pronouns for the summons in the game.
royox
Member
Wait... WHAT? WHAT?????
I died at Ramuh with the cup & fork, wow! XD
*claps*
Sorry, I think that writeup on the prior page of story issues has some minor stuff in it but it absolutely is preposterous that the prince's chief advisor raised as a child for that role would not be familiar with the power structure and leaders of the country's chief adversary and what looks like the world's primary political force. It is similarly preposterous if someone didn't know "Barack" and claimed to be a worldly and educated and intelligent person. That's one of the story's major issues for me but whatever. No1curr since the whole thing is a mess.
So I don't think I ever did figure out Luna's relationship with Nifilheim.
On one hand, they spread propaganda that she's dead post-Insomnia. (I assume they also try to kill her in Kingsglaive, though I haven't seen it)
That suggests that they want her dead, and are okay with the idea of taking credit for her death publicly.
Then she wanders across the desert and talks to Titan, right? Which requires her heading through Nifilheim controlled territory / a Nifilheim controlled gate? Not to mention I would think that Nifilheim would be watching this place pretty closely. Given how concerned they are about the Astrals, they would probably notice Titan waking up to talk to her.
Around this time, based on radio conversations, it seems like the world realizes that Luna's alive and she becomes a public figure again. Why don't they try to kill/capture her? Why isn't she being more reclusive? Why do they let her seek refuge in Altissa? (Isn't Altissa subservient to the Empire? Why would Nifilheim let them give sanctuary to enemies of the state?) Then a bunch of soldiers point guns at her, but they let her talk to Leviathan anyway. THEN they kill her.
Like, do they want her dead or not?
On one hand, they spread propaganda that she's dead post-Insomnia. (I assume they also try to kill her in Kingsglaive, though I haven't seen it)
That suggests that they want her dead, and are okay with the idea of taking credit for her death publicly.
Then she wanders across the desert and talks to Titan, right? Which requires her heading through Nifilheim controlled territory / a Nifilheim controlled gate? Not to mention I would think that Nifilheim would be watching this place pretty closely. Given how concerned they are about the Astrals, they would probably notice Titan waking up to talk to her.
Around this time, based on radio conversations, it seems like the world realizes that Luna's alive and she becomes a public figure again. Why don't they try to kill/capture her? Why isn't she being more reclusive? Why do they let her seek refuge in Altissa? (Isn't Altissa subservient to the Empire? Why would Nifilheim let them give sanctuary to enemies of the state?) Then a bunch of soldiers point guns at her, but they let her talk to Leviathan anyway. THEN they kill her.
Like, do they want her dead or not?
The initial plan was to kill Regis, Noctis and Luna during the Insomnia invasion. There was no plan on Luna surviving the events of Kingsglaive, so once the empire learned that she was still alive, the plan was to assasinate her as soon as possible. Verstael suggested that instead of killing her, they could use her to aniquilate the summons. Once Luna is seen by citizens in Lestallum, Tenebrae and other places, they are forced to acknowledge that she survived, because she is still a central figure in Eos' social structure and people really appreciate having an Oracle. Then, they use her as bait for Leviathan, but once this backfires and the public image of the empire is damaged again (Altissia is destroyed), they blame the incident on Ravus.
Ardyn's goal, on the other hand, was to use Luna as a way to ignite Noctis' anger and make him crave more power for revenge. Everything Ardyn does in the game is set up the final battle. If Noctis wasn't poweful enough to both cleanse the world (which involves sacrificing the last king of the Lucian line) and kill Ardyn for good, the final confrontation wouldn't have made sense.
Very true. FF Type-O has TONS of important information and events occurring off screen. Tabata just doesn't know how to incorporate important extraneous information into existing narratives.
Died. I quote myself:
Pryna died, atleast it's stated so in the German translation. The servant in Tennebrea says (when you talk the second time to her) something like "as Luna passed, Pryna had also to die". But it isn't explained exactly why.
I think as Pryna and Umbra are some kind of saintly beings, Pryna's duty was to be with Luna and when Luna dies, she will also die. But again, it's just a theory
Never got around to playing Type-0. I should and def need to remember to play with JPN VO.
LordKasual
Banned
Pryna and Umbra clearly aren't normal dogs, there's some kind of spiritual somethings going on with them.
This isn't a Tabata problem.
He didn't write the script.
And furthermore, FFXIII started this issue way before XV existed, and all the FNC titles were designed to be stretched out over multiple games, Type-0 and Versus XIII included.
This game was probably chopped up and condensed so badly that it's a surprise the narrative is coherent at all.
This isn't a Tabata problem.
He didn't write the script.
And furthermore, FFXIII started this issue way before XV existed, and all the FNC titles were designed to be stretched out over multiple games, Type-0 and Versus XIII included.
This game was probably chopped up and condensed so badly that it's a surprise the narrative is coherent at all.
Also, let me clear up some of the Ifrit's postings here:
The Astrals are beings that protect Eos. They are NOT there to protect humanity. They are sentient forces of nature essentially. The fact that Shiva protects humanity is her own will. The Starscourge is a very viable threat to Eos and the Astrals use humans to stop it for them.
Ifrit destroyed Solheim 2000 years ago but it is never stated he created the Starscourge to do it. It is very possible the Solheim empire created the Starscourge itself as the disease is purely biological in nature (it is essentially microscopic organisms that 'eat' light and change biological entities into light fearing monstrosities). Ifrit may have stepped in to destroy the civilization to stop the Scourge before it spread across the world. His hatred of humanity makes sense when you consider how angry he must have been when humans themselves made the ultimate threat to Eos. But hey, Ifrit is fickle so maybe he just destroyed Solhiem on a whim and accidentally released their disease into the world. It was enough to cause a war between the Astrals. The Scourge must have survived in Ardyn, forcing Bahamut to give his power to a human female to heal those afflicted with the Scourge (the first Oracle) and the Crystal to the first king of Lucis, to ensure that the Scourge would never overtake the light of the world.
Now, from the lore in game, we also know the Astrals are not above destroying whole cities and countries for their 'Trials'. They clearly see human life as insignificant, with the exception of Shiva. It seems their entire goal for stopping the Starscourge once and for all is waiting for the Lucis line to become strong enough to use the full power of the Crystal to eradicate the embodiment of the Scourge, which is now Ardyn in full. Noctis is their century-long answer to the greatest threat Eos would ever face. Their patience is rewarded.
This lore dump comes from the FFXV guidebook and FFWiki postings btw.
The Astrals are beings that protect Eos. They are NOT there to protect humanity. They are sentient forces of nature essentially. The fact that Shiva protects humanity is her own will. The Starscourge is a very viable threat to Eos and the Astrals use humans to stop it for them.
Ifrit destroyed Solheim 2000 years ago but it is never stated he created the Starscourge to do it. It is very possible the Solheim empire created the Starscourge itself as the disease is purely biological in nature (it is essentially microscopic organisms that 'eat' light and change biological entities into light fearing monstrosities). Ifrit may have stepped in to destroy the civilization to stop the Scourge before it spread across the world. His hatred of humanity makes sense when you consider how angry he must have been when humans themselves made the ultimate threat to Eos. But hey, Ifrit is fickle so maybe he just destroyed Solhiem on a whim and accidentally released their disease into the world. It was enough to cause a war between the Astrals. The Scourge must have survived in Ardyn, forcing Bahamut to give his power to a human female to heal those afflicted with the Scourge (the first Oracle) and the Crystal to the first king of Lucis, to ensure that the Scourge would never overtake the light of the world.
Now, from the lore in game, we also know the Astrals are not above destroying whole cities and countries for their 'Trials'. They clearly see human life as insignificant, with the exception of Shiva. It seems their entire goal for stopping the Starscourge once and for all is waiting for the Lucis line to become strong enough to use the full power of the Crystal to eradicate the embodiment of the Scourge, which is now Ardyn in full. Noctis is their century-long answer to the greatest threat Eos would ever face. Their patience is rewarded.
This lore dump comes from the FFXV guidebook and FFWiki postings btw.
KojiKnight
Member
The Barack example is shit for a number of reasons... But it wouldn't be so out landish if someone introduced themselves as "Harry" and we didn't immediately associate then with Harry Reid. Like Harry Reid he's a high ranking member of their government, but not necessarily as much of a front person. We don't know how common a name like "Ardyn" is in this world, but it's not unbelievable that it could be very common (Barack, however is not).
royox
Member
They are likely a gift from Shiva to the Oracle and the King. They were born around the time Gentiana met Luna and Noctis, both appear alongside Gentiana in her first cutscene and in loading screens, it's stated that they are messengers from the Astrals.
I understand he didn't write the script but this is a consistent pattern in all of his games. It is not THAT bad in XV but Type-0 is a bonafide narrative mess because of it (You cannot have major characters 'die' or disappear' and then have an later explanation in a giant Codex...) At some point, he needs to be taken to task for not improving his directing skills. Toriyama was not much better but he still had major events happen in game, along with datalogs that constantly updated in the game to explain certain events in greater detail for players who wanted to be more invested in the story.
Pryna died, atleast it's stated so in the German translation. The servant in Tennebrea says something like "as Luna passed, Pryna had also to die". But it isn't explained exactly why.
I think as Pryna and Umbra are some kind of saintly beings, Pryna's duty was to be with Luna and when Luna dies, she will also die. But again, it's just a theory
Well, that's awful. I was waiting for Umbra to die too since it seemed like he = Noctis, but then we see him alive at the very end. So why Pryna has to die makes no sense.
I named my Carbuncle after my one of my real dogs. He's 14 so his time with me is growing short, and he's now immortalized in my FF15.
Last night he came and saved me with ruby light.
I feel like I can never delete this game.
I just want to add that in other translations of the game it is stated that the parasites/the scourge came from the meteor. I quote myself:
-
That's sweet
KyleOnTheRun
Member
Haha, oh man, this game. I love it to death when I'm doing post-game content in the open-world but I'm tearing my hair out every time I stop to notice stuff like this.
Why don't the Astrals get rid off it themselves instead of lending their powers to humans and waiting so long?
Interesting. However, we know the Scourge originated in the Solheim region so perhaps the Solheim empire examined the Meteor that Titan caught, found the parasite, brought it back to empire and accidentally allowed it to spread. Perhaps this facilitated Ifrit to destroy the kingdom?
I hope we learn more from the Ultimania!!!
I don't know. I have 2 theories:
A) Since the parasites are aliens and not from Eos, the Astrals couldn't handle it somehow by themselves
B) Their power is not strong enough to get rid off it. IIRK, Bahamut says to Noctis that if he gets the power of the ring and of the kings of Lucis, he will be mightier then the astrals.
Ah thanks! Didn't know that the scourge originates from Solheim (haven't cleared the postgame stuff or read the guidebooks yet). Your explanation sounds very interesting!
I also hope we will learn more from Ultimania.
The Emperor
Member
Any of these facts would have been major twists and reveals in any FF game
But XV just didn't want to give them to you...in any form in the game bar the microscopic organism bit
I just had to stop myself from thinking about it. Cor's re-appearance was one of the things that just made me roll with it. The game literally shows you how much he outclasses you, and then:
"I'm sorry I wasn't there for your father... I'm not going to help you though. Got some random (unimportant) monsters to hunt."
Ok game. Ok.
The Emperor
Member
The same reason Fal'cie couldn't do what they wanted without humans.
It is clearly a leftover element from FNC in some ways.
LordKasual
Banned
Type-0 was an FNC title. FFXIII, Type-0 and Versus XIII all having the same approach to telling its story is likely not a coincidence.
It's likely this issue came from the way they decided to write the games. And XV's story clearly still has alot of the FNC lore in its DNA.
You're going to have to jump through way too many hoops to actually pin this on Tabata, Nomura, or whomever as a main culprit.
FFXIV was developed around the same time, with a more expansive lore than any of the FNC titles, and it didn't suffer this problem, despite its initial release being horseshit.
Great question. Maybe they don't have the power to actually do it (since Bahamut himself is not physically present in Eos) or Arydn proves himself very skilled at evading their grasp.
Perhaps the great Astral War was a conflict between the Astrals on how to handle the Starscourge. I wager half wanted to kill all of humanity to stop the Scourge (Leviathan, Ifrit, and Titan) while the other three wanted humanity to survive (Ramuh, Shiva, and Bahamut). The good ones (thankfully) won and created the Oracle and Lucis king solution to the problem. It works in the end and humanity gets to live on.
What FNC DNA is really left though? There are really no concepts of Etro, the Unseen Realm, Bhunivelve, or the I'Cie left. The Astrals are more akin to FFIX's Eidolons and XI's Celestial Avatars than anything in the FNC framework.
The Emperor
Member
I don't think FNC is to blame. More likely to be the storytellers.
Toriyama sucks at it (despite being amazing at the cutscene direction side).
Tabata sucks major time at it (Type-0 had nothing good, XV he made the characters real people at least).
Had FNC had a good storyteller at the helm I'm sure the story would be fine. Blaming 'FNC loretelling' doesn't make any sense frankly.
A few thoughts:
1. I forgive prompto not knowing. He's a moron. I don't forgive noctis. I certainly don't forgive ignis.
2. The naming issue bugged me throughout the whole game. You have noctis Lucis caelum, prompto, ignis, gladiolus, etc. and you also have characters named Jared and Monica. Lol. It's like so strange to me. I think this is a vestige from versus honestly. The empire seems similarly all over the place. Tenebrae is a Latin word and there are characters named LUNAFREYA and Ravus from there. The emperor and his deputy have Latin inspired names. Then you have Cindy.
Whatever lol
I actually think the main reason they chose him is because he was more or less a child when you last saw him. Then when a middle aged dude picks you up and its revealed that he was that little kid, it would have slightly more impact on the time that passed by. I think that's literally the only reason that was Talcott and not anyone else.
Ravus literally means gray in latin, Sylva also means forest. Luna's full name mixing latin and german is also a concept from the Versus era days, since Stella's full name mixed latin and french.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Final Fantasy is one of the few games where I don't mind watching a CG cutscene.
Should have just cut to that since they've done that since VII.
Didn't someone say in Japanese, Cindy sounds closer to CID-ney.
Her name should have been Cidney/Sidney in English.
Yes, you need to finish the Platinum Demo.
And Carbuncle can only be summoned on Easy Mode in the final game.
What really annoyed me was the loopy pronunciation of Iris. Like I get that's how the Japanese and French pronounce it, but all the normal Western names are pronounced as if they were in an English speaking country. Just seemed to stand out as inconsistent within the naming conventions that were already swinging between normal and nonsense Latin.
Can only imagine what trying to record the VO was like.
"Okay Ravus, Caem, Lunafreya, Lucius Caelum... oh Iris, there's a normal name!"
"Actually we're going to need you to put a spin on it for every line reading."
Oh....Ooooooh.
OK, I'll just forget it then, shame.
Yeah I think it's a real shame that Carbuncle seemed like such a major figure in Noctis' life and dreams and was built up to be a pretty integral part of the story(between Platinum demo, the carbuncle surprise stuff, etc) and he's not even in the final game to any substantive degree.
Zomba13
Member
To be fair it's more fitting this way. Carbuncle joins the ranks of every other bit of seemingly important shit from pre-release media!
DiipuSurotu
Banned
If Noctis is so strong then why didn't he just rebel and destroy both the Astrals and the Starscourge instead of committing suicide? In every other FF this is what would have happened. But since SE had to make sure that there is no room for sequels and that the logo has some meaning, they made Noctis accept his role as a pawn of the gods :/ :/
Why destroy the Astrals? Outside of Ifrit, they are protecting the world itself.
What would be Noctis' motivation to destroy the Astrals?
The Emperor
Member
Sad at the FFXV snubs so many sites are doing in their top 10 2016 lists! Not even in honourable mentions for some
I may have understood the story wrong:
-Isn,t the Starscourge basically Ardyn? So to destroy him, Noctis absolutely needs to summon the past kings and pay the blood price, or else Ardyn would just keep coming back from the beyond, no?
(I personally always call that last summon Knight of the Round, sounds more classic.)
LordKasual
Banned
The concept of the gods of the realm manipulating you against your will and controlling your fate from the sidelines, and the concept of your whole conquest being pushed along by the bad guy just so you can kill him at the end. The whole "fighting fate" thing also shows up but seems to be subverted because Noctis/Luna/Ardyn dying was orchestrated by the gods but actually worked in all of their favors just as much as it worked against them. (They died, but they all also won, in their own ways)
It's loose, but it isn't that hard to gleam.
All of the FNC games had really bad development woes, though. Which is why even though XIII's story was a dumpster fire, i can't place the sole blame on the director or the writers.
For Tabata, even the atrocity that was Type-0's narrative I can't even really blame him for. The lore was clearly extensive, but they were given a PSP budget to complete a game with a story that could have spanned an entire RPG. FFXV is no different, we have a story written for a trilogy that had to be condensed, re-written, and made to work within a single title for a game being made with an engine still in development and clearly released before any of the actual developers would have wanted to.
You don't need to look any further than FFXIII-2 to see what went wrong in FFXIII. They cut so much shit out of the game that they said they could make another whole game out of it. THAT is bad management, but it's still a complicated thing because that was the era where all of Japan was constantly bitching about Next-Gen development. And Square complained about how shitty Crystal Tools was the moment they got the greenlight to drop it.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Omg, that is pretty good. Ramuh is about to give me a Cup of Noodles lol.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Survive?
Tidus didn't want Yuna to die in FFX and they found a way.
Their world protection is pretty fucked up since it involves sacrificing people.
If there ever was going to be a Cup Noodle FX add-on to the game, I'd buy it, no joke.
It doesn't even seems like they copy/paste their brand everywhere, it looks to be literally in-game. :lol