Fabieter
Member
I mean the fact that 95% of the people just go after final fantasy after this report shows that people minds were already set.
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Final Fantasy XVI and Final Fantasy VII Rebirth underperformed, says Square Enix
I mean the fact that 95% of the people just go after final fantasy after this report shows that people minds were already set.
Felessan
Member
They obviously have no clue what to do with it's HD business dying, so they just shoot in every direction in hope something somehow will work out.
It's a lame excuse and trying to save a face when it's obvious that their biggest problem is Genshin&co sweeping their home territory away from them.
They tried to appeal more to western auditory - didn't work, appeal with smaller budgets - didn't work, appeal to nostalgy - worked a bit but not enough to offset losses.
They need FF themed Genshin, but japanese gacha kinda stuck atm
SE management can't just go out and say "we are f***ed". They need a plausible reason to explain poor performance or there will be a question about their incompetence
majestix1988
Member
16 problem is centralized for new gamers that not yet fans for Final Fantasy adding its gameplay that action like DMC with exploration of older Final Fantasy games on SE judgement it still JRPG but its not really its Action-Adventure game(think of 85% Action/ 15% RPG) thus some older FF fans doesnt like it or judge it on watching its gameplay or its demo(some of them they are waiting for Price-drop of it than buying it on full price or even PC version of it)
+ dont forget FF15 fiasco(that game its like KH-fied system but as update it became RPG due constant update such as Char-switch and "tactical mode" or slow mode but its base game its feel KH like game(simplified RPG with mini customization[skills are just truly meh or lack appeal to be jrpg)+ only MC control) dont forget equipment its just upgrades no tactical approach for it especially weapons...
meanwhile on FF7 Rebirth its just good evolution of Final fantasy but its trilogy thus affected by players who doesnt like to spoil themselves want a fulll experience of FF7remake or to wait the game to be completed + the issue of open-world travel fatigue
+ dont forget FF15 fiasco(that game its like KH-fied system but as update it became RPG due constant update such as Char-switch and "tactical mode" or slow mode but its base game its feel KH like game(simplified RPG with mini customization[skills are just truly meh or lack appeal to be jrpg)+ only MC control) dont forget equipment its just upgrades no tactical approach for it especially weapons...
meanwhile on FF7 Rebirth its just good evolution of Final fantasy but its trilogy thus affected by players who doesnt like to spoil themselves want a fulll experience of FF7remake or to wait the game to be completed + the issue of open-world travel fatigue
Astray
Member
How can Square release any of their current AAA slate on Switch 1/2? How can they guarantee a decent-enough look for 7 Rebirth or 16 on Series S? The answer is they likely can't because they focused so hard on graphical fidelity.
Merely releasing more on other platforms is not sufficient to fix the issues they're facing. They need to thoroughly re-examine their pipeline and franchise fanbases very carefully and make the correct moves to fix their pipeline, because right now, it's not desirable enough to generate the revenue they want.
You know what SEGA and Capcom have in common, that Square simply never bothers to do?
- They frequently survey fans (I have participated in at least 2 surveys from each), and whenever a creative change is needed for any big franchise, they ensure that fans of the past playstyle aren't left hanging (Capcom going First Person for RE7/8, while maintaining 3rd person for RE2/3/4 remakes, and SEGA ensuring that long-time Yakuza fans are still serviced with the gameplay they like when the mainline series went JRPG). Conversely, look at FF7 remake trilogy, a project that only a minority were asking for got turned into a vanity project for Kitase and Nomura.
- They both frequently re-use assets and engines, and try their hardest to release on past-gen as well as current-gen consoles (Square literally did the opposite of this, even their big PS exclusives managed to exclude PS4). This is because they have stopped trying to compete on cutting edge graphics.
- They both focus on consistently releasing things for their big franchises, they don't leave their consumers for upwards of 3-4 years to deliver a new installment, as a result, fans are always engaged and their expectations are kept in check (meanwhile mainline DQ is now slipping into the same tunnel FF got into).
- They both make far better use of their back catalogues of IP, meanwhile Square has troves of IP (especially if you count their Gangan manga/LN publishing arm) that goes unused for years and years.
There's a lot to fix at Square besides the PS exclusivity thing.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
It can't be enough when their whole line-up of games generated a meager 750 million USD. That IS low when you have released historical IPs like FFXVI and 7 Rebirth.... they should be cracking 1 billion easy.
It is hardware and software combined and that graph was done by a moron at WSJ. PC hardware sales did decline, but not by that much (23ish billion down to 20), software revenue was up. I posted the actual Aldora report WSJ used for the graph and Aldora themselves are saying that the PC hardware segment proves resilient, as they expect console hardware to come crashing down next FY.
WSJ - PS5 shipped 61.7M and Xbox Series 28.3M WW, as of the end of june 2024, PC Sales Falling
Sony isn't focusing on PC tho. Their first party studio games are still coming to PC 1 to 2 years after release. True. But can you list how many? Do you still think releasing just one or at most 2 exclusives per year is enough for gamers to continue supporting the console? PS2 to PS4...www.neogaf.com
Thanks for the full context.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think it's a safe bet that Rebirth probably hasn't.
They put out an FF16 PR about it selling 3 million copies on their press website within a week of the games release (June 23rd release - June 28th PR), for comparison.
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Fabieter
Member
We always do this with everything. People also did this why it's stupid for square enix to even release exclusives. So this goes all ways.
We(including me) also hated on the ps5 pro with very limited data. It's our bread and butter.
Fabieter
Member
I think it's a safe bet that Rebirth probably hasn't.
They put out an FF16 PR about it selling 3 million copies on their press website within a week of the games release (June 23rd release - June 28th PR), for comparison.
You say safe and probably in the same sentence. What is it? The only thing that's safe it's that the HD segment has problems including a shitton of smaller multiplatform aa games which are still really expensive to make.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The lack of any kind of PR, tweet or announcement is pretty damning evidence. Also industry folks like Nico Partner's Daniel confirming that the game has indeed underperformed is all 'proof' we need since Square isn't talking numbers.
Even the blurb of the presentation specifically name calls XVI and Rebirth (Rebirth in two different occasions).
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Woopah
Member
Of the two, I would say that is more likely to have underperformed yes.I think it's a safe bet that Rebirth probably hasn't.
They put out an FF16 PR about it selling 3 million copies on their press website within a week of the games release (June 23rd release - June 28th PR), for comparison.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
How I hate the "authority fallacy"...
SE management can't manage their own IPs, so that should give you a hint as to why their words can't be taken at face value.
Sure, if they set unrealistic expectations, their games will "fail" despite being profitable. The truth is only PC could give them additional sales, but as some people have pointed out that's not the root problem. They can't expect Final Fantasy to sell like Zelda or Monster Hunter because they have been shitting on the IP for two generations and that has consequences. Of course, the people who fucked up wont tell you that, they rather put the blame on exclusivity deals and other parties.
Lethal01
Member
This is what happens when you bind yourself to a single console that has only been out around 3 years
If they did then their sales expectations would be higher, and they would proceed to still be dissapointed when the sales don't reach them
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BbMajor7th
Member
FFVII Rebirth shouldn't shock anybody. The biggest draw of the FFVII remake project was seeing an iconic world realized with modern visual tech - it was exploring a fully realized Midgar as a fully rendered Cloud Strife for the first time. Once you've done that, the appeal diminishes, so you see attrition in sequels unless the game makes a particularly strong case for its own existence outside of being a prettier more performant take on the original (FFVII Remake did not).
Fabieter
Member
Because they are the only big games. Everything in the op calls the whole HD gaming segment shit. It's really weird to call out Final Fantasy specifically. It's click baity at best.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ok, like you said they're the big games.
A relatively small budgeted game like Diofield or Star Ocean 2R not selling well will not the same impact as a high budgeted game like 16 or Rebirth. Naming them shows that Square had higher expectations of those two.
I do agree with what you said on an earlier page that Square has bigger problems than just FF and they need kind of a big restructuring of how they deliver content.
As of right now, they're mostly coasting off of FF14.
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Fabieter
Member
If the small game costs 70m and sells just as much to break even than they would still be disappointed with the profit when all those smaller games which are still expensive don't make money. If you don't have numbers for every game with budgets than we dont have a case here.
I still think that the ff games slightly underperformed but their problems are alot deeper with basically their whole HD Library.
I still think that the ff games slightly underperformed but their problems are alot deeper with basically their whole HD Library.
Last Hearth
Member
They they should have designed the game around being able to be released on the SW, rather than pointless chase "graphical fidelity".
Astray
Member
That's exactly what I'm advocating for.
But this isn't a road without risk for Square, they need to retrain people to accept concessions in graphics and maybe scope to make that kind of game a success.
asdasdasdbb
Member
They should be able to do both Rebirth and FF16 on Switch 2. Albeit with some graphical cutbacks and 30 fps only.
I had thought that the 3 month exclusivity for Rebirth might have been signed at a time when they thought the Switch 2 was going to be released in Mid 2024.
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Astral Dog
Member
Overall i don't disagree, but obviously at the time it made sense to make a deal with Sony, instead of any other company.
Maybe they simply didn't wanted to cover all the costs by themselves,FFVIIR and FFXVI look to be very expensive projects,they are just saying the sales are lower than they projected for PS5
fart town usa
Member
FF7 remake project is brilliant stuff.
I really wish FFXVI was a different game entirely, I did not like it at all but I still want square to be successful. I also want them to stop working with SBI. WTF...
I really wish FFXVI was a different game entirely, I did not like it at all but I still want square to be successful. I also want them to stop working with SBI. WTF...
StereoVsn
Member
Yep, it was much better vs the first game. Also, Star Ocean 2 Remake was excellent. Triangle Strategy was good.
Their Mana and Saga games seemed to have underperformed though I think if anything they were releasing too many AA games.
Diofield Chronicles, Tactics Ogre, Triangle Strategy, Live a Live, Star Ocean, bunch of Mana and Saga games, Octopath 2. That’s a lot of titles.
StereoVsn
Member
This is the same company that put Kingdom Hearts on Epic Games exclusively for years PC side. So eh, I am not sure of their business acumen in all cases.
Madserb2023
Member
What has hurt Square Enix is that something like FF16 and Rebirth couldn't have been brought to the Switch. I actually don't think bringing it to Xbox and PC will make much difference as that's not where the base is. Hopefully the Switch 2 is powerful enough to have some version of a mainline FF game as it would probably sell millions on that.
It’s not ‘unrealistic’ to have had better sales expectations for a mainline Final Fantasy game. It used to be the JRPG royalty, it has AAA production values, very decent marketing and was well received by critics In previews. It’s probably under 3.5 million units sold, which IS lower than most would have expected.
Most of the ‘shitting on the IP’ was from accepting exclusivity deals that translated to constraining the IP’s audience.
cash_longfellow
Member
I agree, but better to be disappointed with more sales, than disappointed with less sales.
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Haint
Member
And it's still a PS exclusive 6 months later, despite fine print marketing materials suggesting Sony's deal was only for 3 months. These clowns have no idea what they're doing. This shit should have been bundled with Integrade for $70 and put up on Steam and Xbox 3 months ago. Abject. Retards.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Going forward. Not historically. The next Witcher game would easily sell over 10 million copies within the first 3 months.
Switch 2 will have FFVII remake and rebirth and FF16 for sure, if they are launch titles, the sales will get a strong bump
Lethal01
Member
depends on how much Sony is paying them to make up for it.
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cash_longfellow
Member
I only “lol” emoji because of the spell correct there
Trekinspace88
Member
I kinda hope FF17 will be in the same vein as the recent pixel masters. Return the series to it's 2D turn based roots and they wouldn't need a big budget for it.
JimboJones
Member
It was a pretty dumb move, Final Fantasy had been heading in a multiplatform direction for years. Then they decide to be retarded and lock it down on one system.
asdasdasdbb
Member
The poor performance of Square's games on PC suggests otherwise.
Switch is the one exception. And they've obviously ignored it for their AAA titles because of the outdated hardware.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
XVI is the only FF I've played because I loved the combat, setting, and tone of the story. If they don't do another similar one I have no interest in buying another.
srerwws
Neo Member
Now, the consequences have come to a head, with Square itself acknowledging that it was a disastrous decision.
Woopah
Member
It would be really interesting to know the platform split if KH4 is PC/PS/XB/NS.
I expect Final Fantasy leads on PS and Dragon Quest leads on NS.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Read the thread title. The poor performance here is Final Fantasy XVI and Final Fantasy VII Rebirth on PS5.
Saw a post on Reeee from a verified account with some deep analysis and long story short, his thought was that FF16 has sold around 4 million and Rebirth around 3.5 million.
Disappointing sure, but there’s a lot of exaggerating about the demise of FF. That over half a billion dollars spent on FF games in barely more than a year. Square needs a multiplatforn strategy (Switch 2 more important than PC) and release games like Rebirth that people like and they’ll be okay.
Disappointing sure, but there’s a lot of exaggerating about the demise of FF. That over half a billion dollars spent on FF games in barely more than a year. Square needs a multiplatforn strategy (Switch 2 more important than PC) and release games like Rebirth that people like and they’ll be okay.
YOU PC BRO?!
Member
Square Enix sets its targets so high that no game can actually hit them…
thismeinteil
Member
Ah yes, because the 1000 copies they would have sold on the Xbox would have made it a hit. It has nothing to do with exclusivity, not when we have seen exclusives selling very well on the PS4/5.
It has to do with disappointing games.
FF7 Remake, in particular, was not what we were sold it was going to be, a faithful remake. Instead, it turned out to be some fanfiction pseudo-sequel. I'm sure once many figured that out, the sequel wasn't very appealing to them.
JimboJones
Member
Final Fantasy XVI beats Final Fantasy 7 Remake's concurrent players on Steam
Hey at least it's doing better than 7 remake although the exclusivity with EGS probably harmed that release on steam.
Hey at least it's doing better than 7 remake although the exclusivity with EGS probably harmed that release on steam.
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mayham2199
Member
I hope they don't do that. I don't mind them toning down the graphics and I would actually prefer if they went a little more linear with their stories like FF7 Remake. Not everything needs to be massive.
Lorianus
Member
But isnt it obvious why ?, release your game a year after on the platform for full release price when every potential buyer on pc has been spoiled the full story and or watched a full playthrough of the game on stream/youtube.
Sucks out the whole momentum that game would have had.