-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Fire Emblem Heroes |OT|Natural Selection Simulator
- Thread starter Shun
- Start date
- Status
Hours Left
Member
The boost in points is great. I wish I had a 40% hero to really make use of it but even the 20% heroes nets a lot from the bonus.
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
Got another ninian so now I've got to train my old one to 40 because I forgot what nature she had.
It's a "mixed message" because the preface you are reading is on the wrong list. The Inheritance Tier List criteria don't include this, because we actually do take team synergy into account, otherwise Eirika/Ephraim and the dancers would be ranked even lower.
The reason dancers rank lower than readers expect is that the skill is overrated by a large majority of the playerbase. I wasn't sure if I agreed with that stance until I started using three or even four units with Reposition - it makes including a dancer completely unnecessary. With savvy AI manipulation and Reposition, you can take full control of the battle while still fielding four effective combat units. The actual combat capability of dancers is limited comparatively. They still rank highly because dancing cannot be understated, but it doesn't guarantee automatic S tier to us.
With Fury and +Spd Eirika can have 41 Speed and 31 Res - as a support unit she is really hard to kill, in fact she can survive an unbuffed Linde. That's extremely impressive. I wouldn't hesitate to use her on a team with infantry mages, and with her personal weapon and solid base stat total she further provides a good score. Eirika with Reposition can practically fulfill the same role as a dancer while also being incredibly durable against enemies of all colors.
Cancel Affinity is put on defense teams. I have personally run into it - defense Hectors run it, I've seen Ikes run it, Ryomas run it, even a Lucina. If your dedicated red counter is a TA Nowi like mine, you would run into problems. The sheer existence of the skill is a deterrent, it only takes one opponent with it to show up to possibly break your streak. However, as pointed out, it's not really a reason for Olivia and Azura not being S.
toastyToast
Member
I don't really feel like I'm seeing any more 4-5* units than before despite the rate change. It's the same old Stahl/Oboro/Arthur bullshit
Is it just me or are enemies this Tempest have a lot less crazy stats, or am I confused with the absolutely brutal CC 11-12? Finished two runs, both with 2116 points and I didn't even feel any challenge. Delthea being boosted could have contributed to it but Nino is still the one that did most of the heavy lifting; I run a color-balance team so color can't be it.
And that's 4232 points done. If I do this for 14 days, I will end up with around 59k points. I can certainly do low-level auto-battle for the rest of the day. They have added more options this time too; you can now choose something like lv 25 or 30. Previously it was either lv 20 (too low) or lv 35 (too high for the AI to perform consistently). Assuming you get 200 points a pop with auto-battle, that's another 200 * (14 -2) = 2400 points per day, which is 34k points for 14 days. That road to 90k (2 manual runs and 12 auto runs) points sounds pretty ok with me as far as Tempest goes.
Edit: I just tried auto-battling the lv30 5-battle Tempest and with a 40% bonus char, it yields around 400 points a pop; that's a lot more then I thought. With this and the improved continuous multi-battle auto feature, autoing your way to 100k points seems realistic enough!
And that's 4232 points done. If I do this for 14 days, I will end up with around 59k points. I can certainly do low-level auto-battle for the rest of the day. They have added more options this time too; you can now choose something like lv 25 or 30. Previously it was either lv 20 (too low) or lv 35 (too high for the AI to perform consistently). Assuming you get 200 points a pop with auto-battle, that's another 200 * (14 -2) = 2400 points per day, which is 34k points for 14 days. That road to 90k (2 manual runs and 12 auto runs) points sounds pretty ok with me as far as Tempest goes.
Edit: I just tried auto-battling the lv30 5-battle Tempest and with a 40% bonus char, it yields around 400 points a pop; that's a lot more then I thought. With this and the improved continuous multi-battle auto feature, autoing your way to 100k points seems realistic enough!
toastyToast
Member
I have way too many feathers at the moment and I'm yet to get the dream +Spd Nino. Between one that's +Atk/-HP and +Atk/Def which should I promote?
I wonder if there is some sort of bug with Virion on Tempest Trials? He's the only one who doesn't move from his starting position when the first enemy unit has been baited.
Faced him three times and he literally doesn't move around like the others, unless you are in a position where he can attack on his turn. It's costing me an extra turn or two.
Faced him three times and he literally doesn't move around like the others, unless you are in a position where he can attack on his turn. It's costing me an extra turn or two.
Hours Left
Member
It's not just Virion. Some of the maps have units that won't move until someone is in agro range.
You lose the Rally skill that way though, which kinda hamper her primary role a bit don't you think?
I rely on Reposition a lot myself and before I decided to set Olivia as a prime target for merge (I have 10 of her) due to arena scoring needs, I only use red sword with legendary weapons (Eirika -> Ryoma), and literally everybody besides Hector carried Reposition. I agree with dancers being at A+, I just don't think Erika belongs to a tier higher at Ike level. To me, the same tier with the dancers, Xander (without horse buffs), and medic Lucina (who has the same if not better combat performance) is more appropriate for her. But of course that's just my casual thoughts; I won't bang my head against a brick wall when you guys think differently of course. lol
SenorArdilla
Member
Some units don't move at all unit you kill everyone else.
-Def. In this one-shot meta -HP and -Def are essentially the same when facing physical units but the former is worse when facing mages.
Hours Left
Member
Yep. The AI pattern was just carried despite not having a round limit.
Interesting, I'll have to look out for that.
Does anyone know if the tempest score boost is daily or a one-time thing?
EDIT: Just got my first max score of 705. I think the last stage is the easiest boss map when compared to the previous trials. Bridelia, Azura, Celica and Nino for the win!
No, I don't think so. Rallies are not recommended in the arena, I would advise using Reposition over it any time. For offensive units, buffing +3 Atk/+4 Spd/+2 Res is more than enough to make a gigantic difference. Adding +4 Defense to it over having an incredibly useful skill like Reposition isn't really justified in my eyes at all.
In fact I used to have Rally Def on my Eirika because of the build suggestion on the wiki and have constantly regretted the fact that she doesn't have Reposition - it has robbed me of options.
I can definitely see your point but on the other hand:
- Unbuffed Xander doesn't really perform his role very well unless he uses Triangle Adept.
- Healer Lucina wasn't really a factor for the list as we don't consider Renewal her best B in an arena context. She would rather run something like Fury/Moonbow/Vantage or Swordbreaker to be a melee duelist, and that's also her problem - due to being purely a sword melee, she has trouble contributing, especially compared to Ike and Ryoma. Eirika contributes heavily even if she doesn't see combat, and her combat prowess is still impressive - her survivability in particular which is an important factor for running support.
Ephraim is ranked lower because of exactly these kinds of factors - he is slow with low Resistance and blue. He can melee duel other blues but has little chance against mages, and that's a huge aspect to us.
It's unfortunate you describe us as a "brick wall" because we do take feedback into account. Right now we are in the process of drafting a more budget friendly list that doesn't take 5* inherits into consideration, to better provide players an overview of what they can build that still ranks highly.
Hours Left
Member
Twice a day, everyday.
That's Twilight of the Gods, Gaiden/SoV's end game map theme. It is very fitting here
This is funny, they did exactly what I complained about in the last Tempest Trials.
What I complained was the grinding to get orbs in TT and said they should at least let you win 1 orb in every 5,000 point interval between the 10,000 point interval of 3 orbs that you win.
They did exactly that and added feathers and crystals for the other 2,500 and 7,500 point intervals.
What I complained was the grinding to get orbs in TT and said they should at least let you win 1 orb in every 5,000 point interval between the 10,000 point interval of 3 orbs that you win.
They did exactly that and added feathers and crystals for the other 2,500 and 7,500 point intervals.
dreamlongdead
Member
Did my free summon on the Hero Fest, and a few more in the circle.
I still don't know how to feel about the first double 5* on my main account. This looks like the best summon ever at first glance...but guess what the IVs are on both of them?
+RES/-ATK and +SPD/-ATK. You have got to be kidding me! This may be a message that I should whale, but I think I'll resist. I only intended to do one circle, and I need to save.
Could have done worse with 15 Orbs. Didn't show them but the other stones were Shanna and 4* Mathilda. Draug, Shanna, and Mathilda were all blessed with +ATK/-RES, +SPD/-HP, and +HP/-DEF respectively.
Maybe +SPD/-ATK Ike will still be decent. I already slapped the ATK seal on him.
I still don't know how to feel about the first double 5* on my main account. This looks like the best summon ever at first glance...but guess what the IVs are on both of them?
+RES/-ATK and +SPD/-ATK. You have got to be kidding me! This may be a message that I should whale, but I think I'll resist. I only intended to do one circle, and I need to save.
Could have done worse with 15 Orbs. Didn't show them but the other stones were Shanna and 4* Mathilda. Draug, Shanna, and Mathilda were all blessed with +ATK/-RES, +SPD/-HP, and +HP/-DEF respectively.
Maybe +SPD/-ATK Ike will still be decent. I already slapped the ATK seal on him.
SliceSabre
Banned
Spent resources to level Berkut so I could use him in the 14+ TT stuff. This will be my way of training him to get that sweet bonus exp, sp and bonus points.
Not gonna push TT as hard this time around, taking it slow now.
Not gonna push TT as hard this time around, taking it slow now.
BuckRobotron
Member
Got a neutral Ephraim on a one-shot roll while trying for Ninian. He and his sis were notable no-shows despite trying on their intro banner, so I can dig it. Feel free to disrupt the queue yourself next time Eirika. Anyway, Tempest seems yet again more inviting, agreeably so. Lucked out with both Delthea and Gray as 40% bonus units.
Emperor Hol Horse
Neo Member
Finally got Summer Corrin (with neutral IVs which is not horrible)!
Bamboo 竹
Member
Free Hit and Run is awesome. IS is learning after the Tobin failure.
That's my mistake then. Though it's still being represented that this is a individual value list by your own people, and I still have issues with the complete rejection of class specific buffs in a team, or "emblem" setting. I don't think the chart accurately represents the current meta of Arena without it, which is one of the intended purposes of the list based upon the update post. I appreciate the Emblem Tier list as a means of sating those who feel Fliers, Cavalry, and Armors are underrepresented, but pitting them against each other in an exclusive chart doesn't really paint a picture of the meta either.
I can't say that I agree with the reasoning behind the downgrading of Dancers. It almost feels as though Dancers somehow have a stigma of being lazy, uncreative, or unoptimal.
"however in the end, a dancer is a support unit that lets you use the same powerful unit twice when you could just use 2 powerful units with movement assists to get people out of dancer akin to a dancer."
"Just use two powerful units" feels a bit shortsighted. Yes, that's one viable strategy. There are certainly teams that can and should replace the role of a dancer with Reposition. I use Reposition on my most used units, and its value is well recognized. However, it feels as though the above completely mischaracterizes Dancers as unoptimal when there are certain interesting, creative, and viable strategies revolving around Dancers beyond the role of a second powerful unit.
Dancers allow for movement beyond Reposition range, particularly in certain maps where Reposition is less viable due to space constraints. Dancers allow the obvious double KO. Dancers allow multi-assists, or assist/attack combo. Dancers allow for proc of certain skills like a Galeforce Cordelia build. There isn't a one unit replacement for all of what a Dancer can do. And Dancers fit on any team, which appears to be one of the primary criteria for placing in the upper tiers.
Dancers aren't necessary, but necessity doesn't appear to be a criteria of the S-S+ tier. None of those units are necessary. If the question is one of redundancy, then I I still think there are scenarios where a Dancer is optimal and distinct in utility over another independent unit. It almost feel like Dancers were targeted specifically because the general populace values them so highly.
There's also just a lot of seemingly arbitrary criteria in this list. You take IVs and SI into account, but you don't take merges into account. You assume the activation of debuffs, but undervalue buffs. The incredible value placed on Deploy versus Threaten. Some of it feels controversial for the sake of being controversial or new.
I've definitely fallen off of using dancers myself, I do agree with them dropping down a little purely in the context of player-controlled teams. But on a defense team they are a bigger threat than anything else.
+SPD -ATK Ike is 'almost Ryoma' so it's not that bad at all. Would probably swap in Fury in place of Heavy Blade.
The spare Ike I'd probably use for Heavy Blade on someone else. I've got plans for Eldigan if I ever find a +ATK one.
+SPD -ATK Ike is 'almost Ryoma' so it's not that bad at all. Would probably swap in Fury in place of Heavy Blade.
The spare Ike I'd probably use for Heavy Blade on someone else. I've got plans for Eldigan if I ever find a +ATK one.
I don't know if the person that has told you that is on the actual tier list team so I can't really comment, but can guarantee the criteria weren't just 1v1 calculations.
I also don't see how we are completely rejecting emblem buffs considering we made a whole separate list to rank them. I can't really agree with the notion that the metagame is not represented due to it being a separate list.
Putting them on the same list would have been more problematic, because of their large gulf in performance between being buffed and unbuffed. Would we then give all infantry buffs as well? How many? To avoid unnecessary complications we settled on not buffing anyone (with the exception of blade mages to compare them between each other) and comparing units that excel with movement related buffs in a separate list. It's our first attempt at such list so it might not be optimal yet.
I can't second the impression you are getting because we are still valuing them highly. Their assist simply doesn't make them automatic S tier to us due to their comparatively subpar combat ability and them being infantry limiting the range they can provide.
We'll have to agree to disagree here because I have seen Reposition allow for most if not all of the options you are describing, especially on a Flier team. The movement range with four Repositioning fliers is ridiculous, especially if they include mages.
Dancers aren't necessary and I have seen a multitude of situations where Reposition is better, because dancers are exclusively infantry. One shouldn't rely on activating Galeforce with Cordelia (and usually Luna is her better Special anyway) and dancers do not fit on any team. Adding a dancer to my fliers would make the team worse.
Taking natures and inheritance into account are specified criteria, yes. We decided against factoring in merges because then it would only be a +10 list and utterly useless for any but the most high paying players.
Ploy is incredibly more useful than Threaten, to the point where we don't consider Threaten viable over buffs. Ploy has the distinctive advantage of affecting a range spanning the entire map, which allows for insane strategies leading into turn 2 wins, especially involving fliers and Reposition (again, impossible with dancers).
No tier list reasonings or criteria were created with the intention to stir controversy.
Bah, I have absolutely no bonus units in this Tempest at all. Time to grind even more than usual.
Thankfully it's balanced out by better rewards and the improved autobattle system.
I'm trying to run a team with a lot of Renewal units to help them be more self-sufficient when autobattling through Tempest this time around. So far it's working well.
Thankfully it's balanced out by better rewards and the improved autobattle system.
I'm trying to run a team with a lot of Renewal units to help them be more self-sufficient when autobattling through Tempest this time around. So far it's working well.
the maps are kinda shitty for cavalry cheese but oh well. Still nothing I have that clears it faster. I bring in Alm for the last map and even being -atk and no SI the stat boost makes him pretty monstrous. Must be nice for the people with a full squad of bonus units. I'd have happily leveled and used Clive if he was a 40%.
And yeah, only having a 20% hurts, but the triple points twice a day will make a huge difference. I also like that they've added a bunch of stuff to the upper point tiers to make it feel like less of an unrewarding slog. Although it still will be.
also hey maybe I'll pull a Sonya on hero fest with these orbs
And yeah, only having a 20% hurts, but the triple points twice a day will make a huge difference. I also like that they've added a bunch of stuff to the upper point tiers to make it feel like less of an unrewarding slog. Although it still will be.
also hey maybe I'll pull a Sonya on hero fest with these orbs
in b4 Merric
My vanilla Celica is destroying this with her bonus buffs and team buffs. Going to be easy to get the 40k for the seal. I think just running it twice a day will do it. I was planning on doing some SP farming but that may be off the table now, although I'll be able to put whatever I want on Celica after this.
Alkez
Member
Ah thanks! I haven't got round to playing it yet so I hadn't heard it before. I love it when mobile games do versions of songs like this.
toastyToast
Member
Continuous auto is legit. Level 25 seems to work fine although I might be able to bump it up. 3 minutes and 20 stamina scores me 350 points which is right on half of a perfect run on the highest difficulty.
I'll refrain from identifying the specific person unless you want me to, but they did represent the they were a part of the team.
There seems to be a great deal of reluctance in assuming buffs in a player controlled setting within an optimal team that traditionally provides for said buffs, but the list has no issues with assuming the activation or viability of debuffs. It just seems oddly weighted when we're already assuming no cost or teammate restriction and ideal scenarios.
Perhaps the tone from that particular individual colored my perspective on the intent behind the dancer shift.
To me, it's less about the arbitrary letter placement and more about the justification of the shift in general. I'm well aware of the strength of Reposition. I run a dual mage flier team, and it's a beautiful thing. There are still scenarios where enclosed areas lend themselves to Dancer usage, and there's still the ideal setup for things such as Firesweep Cordelia or Galeforce Cordelia with a WoM dancer. It's not an all or nothing replacement. I also don't agree with the notion that a balanced team shouldn't have these issues. There is nothing suggesting that a purely balanced team is actually an optimal team in Arena. The nice thing about Arena is that you have the freedom to run both hyper offensive and baiting defensive teams with the same level of success.
They definitely aren't necessary. I agreed with you on this. I also don't think that's a criteria for being top tier.
I would suggest that the list as it stands borders on that whale player focus, so it's really just a question of how whale-centric do you want your list to be.
Wouldn't some of those strategies require movement specific buffs in tandem with debuffs, which shouldn't be a part of the tier list criteria?
toastyToast
Member
You don't have any Florinas?
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
My decision to blow 40,000 feathers to give L&D3 to Delthea and Gray is paying dividends right now in TT. Delthea has 59 Atk 46 speed.
Yeah, never been a huge Julia fan. Only time I've ever used her outside of leveling up to 40 is in Arena Assault to soak up a Reinhardt or take down a Nowi. I did use her in Squad Assault but she easily could have been replaced by any other green mage.
Celica is easily my new favorite character. I run TT with Wrathful Staff Lachesis so she's constantly full health. I ran Nino, TA MRobin, Celica, and Lachesis and just absolutely dominated. I might throw that up as a defensive team with WoM Azura and see how it does.
Has anyone screwed around with a Olivia/Azura/Ninian/Reinhardt team for defense? I know it makes no sense, but I think I'd be horrified and not know what to do if I saw that..
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
At that speed you may as well tech her with TA and a Breaker skill or QR. she is a green Sanaki at that speed.
Ploy doesn't require assistance from any allied units, Est can do this on her own no matter whether she is supported by anyone. This is the difference between Ploy and being buffed.
I have added some notes to my previous post about how dancers have their own issues due to being infantry. We simply don't value them on the same level as units like offensive player phase fliers that can run Hit and Run and Reposition while also being incredibly potent in combat.
We will have to agree to disagree on this point.
It definitely weighs heavily towards it because we assume full access to skills, but this is where we chose to draw the line. I do not think that it is arbitrary, this is the reason we provide.
No, they would not.
I feel like Julia is really good as an all-round type of mage, but isn't an instant delete button like Nino, Celica, or a good blade tome mage. I use mine a lot though, and consider her one of my best ranged options. Deathless runs have gotten a lot easier since I got her. It's nice to know that you're immune to any blue mage and can oneshot Azura/Ninian anytime. She also packs enough punch to do respectable damage to any character, regardless of color. I'm not sure how much speed factors into it, because I usually don't look at her speed unless I'm doing some sort of G Tomebreaker mirror match.
- Status