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Fitness |OT4| Squat Booty, Summer Cuts, and Super Swoletrophy

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Dash27

Member
Mark Rippetoe: Training pure conditioning without a strength base is a waste of time.

Agree with that. By the same token you cant just ignore conditioning. It's not too hard to find the right balance for yourself so long as you're not ignoring one or the other.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/conditioning_is_a_sham

Now that adequate bandwidth has been restored, here's a shocking statement that applies to all novice lifters, as well as the vast majority of all trainees: training specifically for conditioning without a well-developed strength base is a waste of time.

There's simply no better way to increase your work capacity than increasing your ability to produce force. If your primary interest is being more effective at moving yourself and/or submaximal or maximal loads more efficiently, training for strength contributes much more to your goal than training for endurance.

The reason for this should be obvious. Maximal loads are your 1RMs in the basic lifts. For a 200-pound male of average height, a 1.75x bodyweight squat, a 2x bodyweight deadlift, and a .75x bodyweight press constitute a well-developed strength base.

Although this isn't considered "strong" by competitive lifters, it represents a level of strength that's attainable by 95% of male trainees in a few short months of reasonably efficient training on the lifts. More importantly, it makes commonly encountered submaximal tasks much easier repetitively, and this is what we mean by "work capacity."
 

sphinx

the piano man
My rant could go on and on about guys like him, newbies and newbie groups and all that comes with gyms. of course I will state again, I am no expert and I am sure I do things at times that need correcting.

I don't mind guys doing wacky stuff as long as they know EXACTLY what they want to do as they take the machine or equipment and do it with proper timing or tempo.

there's nothing more annoying than being 3rd in line to use the pull-up bar and watch as a guy takes his sweet ass time to decide which one of his hundred pull-up variations he wants to do next and experiments with the knees like this, the legs like that.... Grab the bar, do your reps and move, alternate if you are not done yet, that's how I see it.
 

Dash27

Member
A few short months? If that is the case, then I am doing terrible lol.

Starting Strength I'd say it took me maybe 4 months of 3x a week going at it to see serious strength gains. SS 3x a week and eating enough to support the gains, plus getting adequate recovery. Some people do too much, others too little, others dont eat enough.. all of that matters in my experience.
 

Cudder

Member
flat benched 80lb dumbbells today :D

Felt really good after being on barbells so long. Gonna stick wirh dumbbell presses for the next little while methinks.
 
Guys what do you think about 1 day high intensity with low volume and 1 day low intensity with high volume full body workout with 2 days of rest in between every week for strength and mass gains as a beginner?
 

Petrie

Banned
Guys what do you think about 1 day high intensity with low volume and 1 day low intensity with high volume full body workout with 2 days of rest in between every week for strength and mass gains as a beginner?

I think as a beginner you should find a tried and true program created by someone reputable, not try t reinvent the wheel.
 

kylej

Banned
people who primarily use free weights shouldn't be too worried about january 1st. it'll be cardio bunnies and lots of machine users on new years.
 

Petrie

Banned
people who primarily use free weights shouldn't be too worried about january 1st. it'll be cardio bunnies and lots of machine users on new years.

My gym gets busier for a few weeks n the weight area, if you go during prime hours. The classes my girlfriend likes get packed, but you're right, it doesn't effect us much beyond being annoying too the less social types.
 
That's an insane picture Darth Wufei. Forearms of peace.

What's your height/weight if you don't mind.
Thanks bud! I am 5'9 184 right now.

darth...i want your arms...not the muscles part, but the length part ;_; i want arms of those proportions..would make basketball much easier haha
I never thought of myself having long arms. I am short and I also have small hands.

It looks like Darth's head was photoshopped onto that body.

That is a compliment.
8) I wouldn't wish my fish face on anyone.

Looking at him I have absolutely no problem believing he's natural.
Always got my back!

Bulking now? Didn't you just finish cutting to 185? Sucks that your coach seems unreliable. Does he have really good credentials? My ideal coach would be someone like Eric Helms or Tuan Tran. Looking great regardless!
He has credentials. I just think he's a very busy person. I know that's no excuse for someone you're paying services for, but I'm not really too bummed. Most of the stuff he has me doing isn't shit I already didn't know about.

Darth, I join the choir of compliments. Comparing your pics from 5 or 6 months ago to the ones you have posted recently (those that make a couple of guys nervous in the other thread, lol), your improvement is amazing.

Sad to hear your trainer is making himself unavailable, that sucks. Ask him to give you your money back.
Thanks bud. I am still a little fatter than back in May.l Overall I would say I'm 5-7 lbs heavier. Guess that sloppy bulk wasn't a total waste.

Khalifa Jayy said:
Darth, I guess you can take this as a compliment but fuck I do not believe you're all natty. No fucking way.
Yeah, a lot of people don't which surprises me. I'm not big enough to look like I'm on anything, or strong enough. If I were over 200 I could see it. I've even questioned myself because people bring it up so much. lol Maybe my supplements were laced or I do crazy shit in my sleep.
 

Noema

Member
people who primarily use free weights shouldn't be too worried about january 1st. it'll be cardio bunnies and lots of machine users on new years.

I don't know. Every day is chest day so both benches at my gym will be taken 24/7 by skinny kids doing pyramid sets nonstop, working up to 75lb and using up every 2.5lb plate in the processes.

Add that to the infinite number of squat rack curlers.

On the flip side, there will no doubt be an influx of fresh new girls training in tight Yoga pants. (Hggggnnnnn.)
 

grumble

Member
Mark Rippetoe: Training pure conditioning without a strength base is a waste of time.

Agree with that. By the same token you cant just ignore conditioning. It's not too hard to find the right balance for yourself so long as you're not ignoring one or the other.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/conditioning_is_a_sham

Well in the article he does say to ignore conditioning (if you don't have a sport to train for) until you're moderately strong (~350lb squat, 400lb DL, 150lb press, definitely achievable in <1yr), at which point you can dial the strength progress back a notch and get some conditioning going (which will go very quickly since you've got a strong base to supercharge you). Makes sense to me.
 

maxxpower

Member
Question, if I'm already pretty much at my desired weight and body-fat percentage(if I can see my abs and obliques then that's good enough for me) can I start eating some carbs again? I don't mean like a re-feed day but just to my daily diet. Right now I don't eat any carbs at all(except for the ones in dairy, green vegetables, oranges, and nuts).
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
Question, if I'm already pretty much at my desired weight and body-fat percentage(if I can see my abs and obliques then that's good enough for me) can I start eating some carbs again? I don't mean like a re-feed day but just to my daily diet. Right now I don't eat any carbs at all(except for the ones in dairy, green vegetables, oranges, and nuts).

I think it's best if you experiment with it. For example you may find that your body composition looks better from that alone. Either way though you should be able to eat carbs. My abs actually look better when I'm carbed up, my muscles are fuller than when I was on keto.
 

TripOpt55

Member
Trying out the 3x5 workout after seeing people post about it in here. Learned a lot from the OP. I have been working out for a while, but some of my notions seem kind of outdated (or to be honest a bit misinformed). Enjoyed today's workout. I got 235 for 3x5 on Bench, but definitely think I could have done a bit more weight, but honestly wasn't sure where to start at.

I have only really been back in the gym consistently for about two months. Been very eradic over the past year. Going really good though and glad to be back in there.
 
I want to get back to this post a little.
Well in the article he does say to ignore conditioning (if you don't have a sport to train for) until you're moderately strong (~350lb squat, 400lb DL, 150lb press, definitely achievable in <1yr)
Anybody here managed these numbers in less than a year? From my experience and seeing others in the gym I find it highly improbable.

I'm talking about fresh newbies who never touched a barbell before, not ex-army and high school footballers.
 

Petrie

Banned
I want to get back to this post a little.

Anybody here managed these numbers in less than a year? From my experience and seeing others in the gym I find it highly improbable.

I'm talking about fresh newbies who never touched a barbell before, not ex-army and high school footballers.

I was close to these numbers in about a year of SS, and I began about as untrained as possible. Wasn't 100% on track/serious that year either.

This is why linear progression to begin with is so great.

For a 1rm these are easily doable in less than a year.
 

Dash27

Member
I want to get back to this post a little.

Anybody here managed these numbers in less than a year? From my experience and seeing others in the gym I find it highly improbable.

I'm talking about fresh newbies who never touched a barbell before, not ex-army and high school footballers.

Those were almost exactly my numbers after 6 months or so doing SS and that was almost exactly my weight. I went from a lean 170ish to 200lbs. No not a fresh newbie. I had a bit of background in lifting prior but my squat went up over 100 lbs on SS. From mid 200's to mid 300's. Similar with DL, press went up maybe 30-40 lbs.

I dont know anyone elses experience with SS but for me when it got heavy it was really difficult. And remember heavy is a relative term. Heavy for me is warm up for someone else. I'm sure there are plenty of guys here who crush my numbers. When I say difficult I mean lying on the floor or breathing heavy like I just sprinted 200 meters after squats. I was actually nervous before getting to the gym once squats to a certain point!
 

twofold

Member
I want to get back to this post a little.

Anybody here managed these numbers in less than a year? From my experience and seeing others in the gym I find it highly improbable.

I'm talking about fresh newbies who never touched a barbell before, not ex-army and high school footballers.

I've been lifting for about 5 months and my 5rms are 320 squat, 365 deadlift and 125lb press. I've been doing a Leangains recomp during this time - I'm pretty sure I could have gotten a lot stronger had I bulked instead. I'm a pretty big guy (6ft3/230lbs), though, so those lifts aren't too impressive for my size.
 

Mr.Fresh

Member
GAF should I start trying to hit the gym every day at the same time? Right now I go different times everyday but someone told me that's bad.
 
Thanks for the responses. I'm 9 months in SS but had a lot of interruptions, it's probably only 5 months of true linear progression. 5rms are 275lbs squat, 300lbs Deadlift and 103lbs press.

Yeah I guess that benchmark is achievable with some dedication and consistency.
 

sphinx

the piano man
maybe a bit offtopic, but anyone here eats spinach?

any suggestions on how to prepare it as low fat as possible and make it tasty? I can't come up with any ideas that don't involve putting loads of butter or cream on it..
 

blackflag

Member
I want to get back to this post a little.

Anybody here managed these numbers in less than a year? From my experience and seeing others in the gym I find it highly improbable.

I'm talking about fresh newbies who never touched a barbell before, not ex-army and high school footballers.

I hit all of those numbers in less than a year without touching a barbell before. It wasn't even that difficult. I was cutting the whole time too so was in a pretty decent calorie deficit. I did weigh 310 when I started though. I weigh 227 now but the lifts are still going up. My 1rm now are well above those listed except for squat. My squat is still at 350 but I've had to reset squat and deadlift a few times because of back injuries.

My OHP and deadlift are well above those numbers though. I don't see bench but my bench is over 300 now too.

I've been doing barbell training for almost a year.
 

blackflag

Member
maybe a bit offtopic, but anyone here eats spinach?

any suggestions on how to prepare it as low fat as possible and make it tasty? I can't come up with any ideas that don't involve putting loads of butter or cream on it..

Well, not really unless you just eat it uncooked. I guess you could try steaming it. I saute it in olive oil.

Don't be afraid of eating fat unless low testosterone is your goal. You should get around .5 gram per lb of bodyweight per day. It is ok to adjust it some but don't go very low. Your hormones need it.
 
I'm currently at

120 OHP
262 DEADLIFT
346 SQUAT
185 BP

I've been going since early June and never did weight training before. I haven't been as serious as I would've liked and didn't follow any program at all the first four - ish months, so take that as you will.
 

Eidan

Member
So I'm thinking of transitioning to PHAT after I finish this deload week. I looked over the program, and there were some things I didn't like about the power days. I made some changes to it. Let me know what you guys think. I bolded whatever I changed.

Upper Body Power Day
Pulling Power Movement: Bent over or Pendlay rows (going to 5/3/1 this)
3 sets of 3-5 reps
Assistance Pulling movement: Weighted Pull ups
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Auxiliary Pulling movement: Weighted Chins (replacing Rack Chins)
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Pressing Power Movement: 5/3/1 Bench (replacing flat DB press)
3 sets of 3-5 reps
Assistance pressing movement: Weighted dips
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Assistance pressing movement: 5/3/1 OHP (replaced seated DB press, some reservations about this one though, as it would mean three big lifts in one day. Not sure where else I could put OHP though).
3 sets of 6-10 reps
Auxiliary curling movement: Cambered bar curls
3 sets of 6-10 reps
Auxiliary extension movement: LTEs (replacing skull crushers)
3 sets of 6-10 reps

Lower Body Power Day
Pressing Power Movement: 5/3/1 Squats
3 sets of 3-5 reps
Assistance pressing movement: Hack Squats (not sure what the difference between these and a leg press machine are)
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Assistance extension movement: Leg extensions
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Assistance pulling movement: 5/3/1 Deadlifts (replacing stiff legged deadlifts)
3 sets of 5-8 reps
Assistance pulling/curling movement: Glute ham raises or lying leg curls
2 sets of 6-10 reps
Auxiliary calf movement: Standing calf raise
3 sets of 6-10 reps
Auxiliary calf movement: Seated calf raise
2 sets of 6-10 reps
 

sphinx

the piano man
Well, not really unless you just eat it uncooked. I guess you could try steaming it. I saute it in olive oil.

Don't be afraid of eating fat unless low testosterone is your goal. You should get around .5 gram per lb of bodyweight per day. It is ok to adjust it some but don't go very low. Your hormones need it.

Olive oil, I'll try that.

I am trying to reduce the fat in everything I eat because so far I haven't been paying any attention to it. I have searched and googled for stuff rich in protein and try to stick to them but all things said, I could definitely improve my eating behaviour...

On topic of eating, 3 different guys that I consider pretty advanced in the gym have told me that I should be doing 5 meals... They claim that eating right is one half of any success story. That's pretty hard, considering my stomach is very much closed for all of the morning :/ ... one guy said bluntly "You shouldn't eat because you are hungry, you should eat because it's the right time to do it. In fact, if you are hungry, you are already late to eating..."
 

blackflag

Member
Olive oil, I'll try that.

I am trying to reduce the fat in everything I eat because so far I haven't been paying any attention to it. I have searched and googled for stuff rich in protein and try to stick to them but all things said, I could definitely improve my eating behaviour...

On topic of eating, 3 different guys that I consider pretty advanced in the gym have told me that I should be doing 5 meals... They claim that eating right is one half of any success story. That's pretty hard, considering my stomach is very much closed for all of the morning :/ ... one guy said bluntly "You shouldn't eat because you are hungry, you should eat because it's the right time to do it. In fact, if you are hungry, you are already late to eating..."

Sorry, not to confuse you more but they are wrong. Eat when you want, make sure you hit your macros. It is that simple. I eat all of my meals most of the time between 7pm and 11pm. If you want to eat 5 meals do it, if you don't have time, don't want to, then eat 1 or 2 or 3. All that really matters is your total consumption for the day and that you hit your macros.
 

Petrie

Banned
I'm currently at

120 OHP
262 DEADLIFT
346 SQUAT
185 BP

I've been going since early June and never did weight training before. I haven't been as serious as I would've liked and didn't follow any program at all the first four - ish months, so take that as you will.

These numbers make no sense. Your squat shouldn't be almost 100lbs more than your Deadlift. What gives?
 

blackflag

Member
Here Sphinx, this is a better explanation from Alan Aragon.

"Hierarchy of Importance

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

* The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
* The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.


NOTE: Please do not misinterpret the above to mean that timing is irrelevant. On the contrary, it's very relevant. Timing just happens to have MUCH LESS impact on results than hitting your macro totals for the day. This doesn't diminish the fact that people need to individualize their meal timing so that it maximizes their training performance (& does not hinder it). The latter manipulations vary widely, because people have different training protocols, goals, and tolerances. For example, some people experience their best training performance in an immediately fed state, while others do best in a semi-fasted or fasted state. Endurance athletes who neglect carbohydrate timing will not optimize their training capacity. Strength/power athletes with minimal endurance demands have much less of a concern for this. There's no way to 'universalize' a nutrient timing prescription that applies to everyone & all types of athletes. But to reiterate, macro totals for the day overshadow timing in terms of importance, especially for bodybuilding. If macro totals for the day are not hit, the most precisely neurotic timing of meals is all for sh!t. "
 

sphinx

the piano man
Sorry, not to confuse you more but they are wrong. Eat when you want, make sure you hit your macros. It is that simple. I eat all of my meals most of the time between 7pm and 11pm. If you want to eat 5 meals do it, if you don't have time, don't want to, then eat 1 or 2 or 3. All that really matters is your total consumption for the day and that you hit your macros.

yeah, I tend to think like that too. I guess they are just sharing their story, which has been successful for them.

EDIT: Thanks for sharing the info in the above post , I'll take note of it.
 

Petrie

Banned
yeah, I tend to think like that too. I guess they are just sharing their story, which has been successful for them.

You just always have to remember that correlation does not equal causation. They could also tell you that they make sure they watch 5 hours of reality tv every night and it would be about as meaningful without any science behind it.
 

blackflag

Member
You just always have to remember that correlation does not equal causation. They could also tell you that they make sure they watch 5 hours of reality tv every night and it would be about as meaningful without any science behind it.

Exactly, and you also have to look at peoples individual situation. For instance, if those guys are on steroids, it probably makes sense to eat all day. In that situation, you can also drop your fat intake very low because you are getting your testosterone from an exogenous source. Basically, what works for others, won't necessarily work for you.
 
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