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Fitness |OT8| Dad Bods, Bulge Swelfies, and Wait...Do you even lift bro?

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Psychotext

Member
Teggy said:
Well, there's a slight difference between the human and bee body. Just a smidge ;)
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Ha, no, I mean on the subject of it being a human invention. Honey is basically slightly flavoured sugar (and I say this as a beekeeper who doesn't buy into its mystical powers).

...and amusingly, honey can be up to half fructose, so basically the same as "sugar" as most people would describe it (sucrose, which is about 50% glucose, 50% fructose).
 
F

FreddieQuell

Member
Psychotext said:
Yeah, it can have stock issues the same as any other product. Annoying.

Unrelated, was just flicking through the "Sugar Conspiracy" thread, and couldn't help wondering to myself why we always need something to blame? There's no question that a lot of people have better diet adherence on low carb (for some very good scientifically based reasons), but I can't help wondering if we're going too far in the other direction now and demonising sugar in much the same way as we demonised fat. In ward studies (basically they feed you, you have no control over your intake) we've proven that there's no meaningful difference between high carb and low carb in terms of weight gain (controlling for TEF), but we're now convinced that if we make everything low sugar that we'll be ok.

Interestingly, this seems at odds with (UK based) statistics that I've seen recently that show sugar intake has dropped drastically since the 1980s (ask any 80s kid what we ate back then), whilst obesity rates have increased in leaps and bounds. It's an interesting one, but sadly there seems to be a bit too much passion on either side to have a good discussion on the subject.
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I've been asking some questions in that thread and I'm a little frustrated with the need to over-complicate the cause and obvious solution (at least in my mind) of weight gain. The answer is just to reduce calories isn't it? There are certainly other intricacies to it, but the 70% solution is just consume fewer calories. And that should be the answer given to the question of, "How do I lose weight". Not sure if its worth pushing that agenda though.
 
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Psychotext

Member
Well, it's the basic truth of the matter, but it comes with certain complications.

We know that fat and sugar interact to make certain foods hyperpalatable. You can essentially eat far more of it together than you could of it alone (see cream vs sugar vs whipped cream).

We know that low carb diets blunt hunger for some people, and high protein diets increase feelings of fullness.

We know that it's much easier to cut calories if you're dropping an entire macro group (be it fat or carbs).

We know that spikes in insulin can cause the storage of calories as fat (however, we also know that you can store fat just fine without insulin).

So yeah, whilst we know on a basic level that calories in vs calories out is right, it because somewhat more complicated when you take into account human physiology and psychology. That's before we even get to how bad we are are product labels and calculating the exact calories in food.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Psychotext said:
In ward studies (basically they feed you, you have no control over your intake) we've proven that there's no meaningful difference between high carb and low carb in terms of weight gain (controlling for TEF), but we're now convinced that if we make everything low sugar that we'll be ok.
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Which studies are you talking about? Not in a "citation needed" sense, but I'm genuinely curious in reading the studies and the contexts in which they were carried out.
 
mdsfx

mdsfx

Member
My wife caught me weighing an ounce of cheese. "Really?!"

Leave me alone woman!

don't tell her I said that
 
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Psychotext

Member
Zefah said:
Which studies are you talking about? Not in a "citation needed" sense, but I'm genuinely curious in reading the studies and the contexts in which they were carried out.
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Ugh, that's going to be hard to find. I've read literally hundreds of them over the years and I have no idea how to get back to them.

Edit - Try this article as a starting point: http://anthonycolpo.com/sinking-another-boot-into-low-carb-metabolic-advantage-dogma-mad/

He's an arsehole, but he's good with the science.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Psychotext said:
Ugh, that's going to be hard to find. I've read literally hundreds of them over the years and I have no idea how to get back to them.

Edit - Try this article as a starting point: http://anthonycolpo.com/sinking-another-boot-into-low-carb-metabolic-advantage-dogma-mad/

He's an arsehole, but he's good with the science.
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I believe I've read that blog post before. I was hoping for a link to a study that you claims has already proven something, not a link to Anthony Colpo's site :/

Anyway, in terms of your guy's "we know" discussion, I don't think that is true at all. You don't see a lot of well controlled studies to really investigate the issue, but we have tons of anecdotal evidence of nutrient composition dramatically affecting body composition even when the caloric load is unchanged or even increased. I know it's true for me. I eat a massive load in terms of sheer caloric potential in the form of fat and protein every night and I do not put on fat. I used to put on fat very easily when I would eat lower caloric loads (still not below my daily energy requirements, obviously) in the form of bread, pasta, and beer.

One well documented anecdote I like to share around is Sam Feltham's 5,000+ calorie challenge.

Low-carb version:
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

High-carb version:
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-did-get-fat/

Vegan version:
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat/

Obviously it's one person, and over a fairly short period, but still interesting stuff.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
Funnily enough, on the subject of sugar... I went batshit mental yesterday just to try and get one day with some weight gain (over 270g of sugar, over 500g of carbs)... lost half a kg. lol

Zefah said:
I believe I've read that blog post before. I was hoping for a link to a study that you claims has already proven something, not a link to Anthony Colpo's site :/
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He discusses a ward study at length. I appreciate the guy is a dick, but I'm not sure why you're so quick to dismiss the information.

Oh, and as I posted above, we know that certain diets work better for certain people. There's no question of that, however, I'm talking from a macro standpoint, and we also know that on the whole there's very little in the way of (at least rigorously performed) studies that show a significant advantage for one diet vs another (again, matching intake and accounting for TEF).

Thing is, this thread is a great example. There are people here who have great results on high carb, and people here who have great results on low carb.

Edit - Just looking at that 5,000kcal challenge. His protein intake is nearly double on the low carb diet vs the high carb diet. Pretty significant difference there, makes it hard to really draw any conclusions at all from what happened.
 
I

ILoveBish

Member
Been to the gym 3 times in the past 2 weeks. I hate the gym so much I don't even care. Waiting for the floor guy to start putting in the wood floors then we move in.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Psychotext said:
Edit - Just looking at that 5,000kcal challenge. His protein intake is nearly double on the low carb diet vs the high carb diet. Pretty significant difference there, makes it hard to really draw any conclusions at all from what happened.
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What is your implication there? He was still getting well over 150g protein per day with the high-carb diet. Are you suggesting that he would have put on less fat if he upped the protein and lowered the carbs a bit? I thought your assertion was that it was all about the calories.

Not trying to be confrontational, but I just want to understand what you mean.

I agree that we certainly can't draw conclusions that should be applied other people based off his individual experiments.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
Zefah said:
What is your implication there? He was still getting well over 150g protein per day with the high-carb diet. Are you suggesting that he would have put on less fat if he upped the protein and lowered the carbs a bit? I thought your assertion was that it was all about the calories.

Not trying to be confrontational, but I just want to understand what you mean.
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That scientifically, messing with anything other than the variables you're trying to measure the effect of is stupid. You don't change two things at once and try to draw conclusions from the results.

Beyond that I have no comment on the data. As you already said, results from one person are largely meaningless anyway (especially given how many other variables could be at play in his life at any point during the experiments).

ILoveBish said:
Garage. But not taking anything to the home till we're done having people work on it. Just got safety.
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Not long now at least. Funnily enough I had my offer on a house accepted in October... still not sorted out. Who knows how long it'll take.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Psychotext said:
That scientifically, messing with anything other than the variables you're trying to measure the effect of is stupid. You don't change two things at once and try to draw conclusions from the results.

Beyond that I have no comment on the data. As you already said, results from one person are largely meaningless anyway (especially given how many other variables could be at play in his life at any point during the experiments).
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Hmm, not sure I agree with that. It really depends on what the goal of your experiment is.

He was trying to investigate the effect of different macro nutrient compositions that are otherwise largely the same in terms of caloric load, which is why each experiment was performed with the same arbitrary number of around 5,000.
 
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Psychotext

Member
That's fine if you're measuring high carb and moderate protein vs low carb and high protein I guess. I'm not sure that was his intention though.

But yeah, going back to the original discussion, I find the following fascinating:

In Australia, the UK and USA, per capita consumption of refined sucrose decreased by 23%, 10% and 20% respectively from 1980 to 2003. When all sources of nutritive sweeteners, including high fructose corn syrups, were considered, per capita consumption decreased in Australia (−16%) and the UK (−5%), but increased in the USA (+23%).

Furthermore, there was a reduction in Australian sales of sweetened beverages by 64 million litres from 2002 to 2006 and a reduction in the percentage of Australian children consuming sugar-sweetened beverages between 1995 and 2007.

Despite this, the prevalence of obesity increased threefold in Australia since 1980.

The findings confirmed what the Aussie researchers labelled an “Australian Paradox” – a substantial decline in refined sugar intake over the same period that obesity increased markedly.

As the researchers noted, “the implication of these findings is that efforts to reduce sugar intake may reduce consumption but may not reduce the prevalence of obesity.”
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Pretty much the same story in the UK as Australia in that obesity levels have increased significantly despite intake of fructose / sucrose decreasing.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Psychotext said:
That's fine if you're measuring high carb and moderate protein vs low carb and high protein I guess. I'm not sure that was his intention though.
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His intention was to experiment with the idea that all calories are the same regardless of source in terms of their effect on body weight and body fat. Or, in his own words:

Sam Feltham said:
I have always been a sceptic of the efficacy of calories use in how we interact with food, as I have always thought that I eat more than I burn yet remain the same weight and waist measurement. With this in mind I decided to take action on this challenging question by conducting a 21 day experiment where I ate 5,794 calories of a high fat low carb diet of natural foods to see if I put on as much weight as the calorie formula says I should.
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Psychotext said:
But yeah, going back to the original discussion, I find the following fascinating:

Pretty much the same story in the UK as Australia in that obesity levels have increased significantly despite intake of fructose / sucrose decreasing.
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Sure. It's obviously not *just* processed sugar that's making people obese.
 
B

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
BumRush said:
When's your next competition brolic? You look hungry in these last few videos
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It was May/June. Real life is getting in the way (don't feel like getting into it), so probably just gonna do another small regional meet in July and maybe a strongman comp in September.
 
S

steveovig

Member
I'm having a bit of a conflict with my Deadlifts these days. I've been committed to doing standard deads for strength, for the last couple years. I have gotten my max up to around 320 before I started cutting back in November. However, I think I haven't been hitting form properly this whole, and mostly lifting with my back. I can't seem to get a neutral spine and I have a slight flexion in my back. I never have back soreness though but I never usually feel anything in my hamstrings when I'm doing the lift either.

My goals are for hypertrophy but I still feel the need to do 3 sets or so of strength work each workout because I'm not very strong, IMO. I also feel that if I just keep going with how I'm doing things, I"m going to injure myself down the road. I'm frustrated with them and would like to switch to Stiff Legs only because I feel more comfortable doing them. Has anyone, with similar goals as me, tried lifting without standard deads in their routines?
 
mdsfx

mdsfx

Member
Brolic Gaoler said:
It was May/June. Real life is getting in the way (don't feel like getting into it), so probably just gonna do another small regional meet in July and maybe a strongman comp in September.
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Ugh, life is certainly good at throwing curve balls. Hope whatever it is works out.
 
B

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
BumRush said:
It happens man. I hope all is well!
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mdsfx said:
Ugh, life is certainly good at throwing curve balls. Hope whatever it is works out.
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Let me head this off real quick. It's not a big deal to me, not a major thing. Just enough to get in the way of competing in another state at the national level. It involves people outside my immediate family. I appreciate the thoughts though.

MjFrancis said:
This is absolutely one of the most important and overlooked facets of weightlifting.

Sleep, bros, sleep.
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Look at this mother fucker just randomly dropping by. How the hell you been bud?
 
M

MrToughPants

Brian Burke punched my mom
Late night snack, maple syrup beans :D

DDp4i7n.jpg
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S

SilentSoldier

Member
Fitbros, its been so hard to stay focused on health and fitness with this stupid test looming in the distance. I skip the gym because it gives me more time to study but then I feel all guilty that I'm not at the gym. I want this thing to be over so I can regain some semblance of balance again. At least the diet hasn't taken a huge hit.
 
D

despire

Member
Zefah said:
Hmm, not sure I agree with that. It really depends on what the goal of your experiment is.

He was trying to investigate the effect of different macro nutrient compositions that are otherwise largely the same in terms of caloric load, which is why each experiment was performed with the same arbitrary number of around 5,000.
Click to expand...

Different people respond differently to different macros so making any conclusions based on one mans experiment is pretty meaningless tbh. Interesting maybe but it doesn't serve any real point because you can't draw any real conclusions.

Some people do well on high carb/medium fat and others do well on high fat/low carb. This we know. We have examples of both in this very thread.

Everyone would do well to experiment with different macronutrient ratios and see which they body prefers. Or alternatively do a DNA test if you have monies :p

Anyway, we know enough that it's not possible to make planket statements in favor of any dietary approach anymore. Everything works more or less. Everything has their pro's and con's. Generally speaking, you lose equal amount of fat wether you eat high carb or low carb. Some things work better on some people though but it's hard to know those things before those people try it themselves.

Teggy said:
Well, there's a slight difference between the human and bee body. Just a smidge ;)

EDIT: oh, did you mean bees make sugar? Well they make honey, which is not the same as processed sugar, which along with corn syrup is actually what's in all of our food.
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Honey is sugar. Sugar is sugar.
 
I

ILoveBish

Member
BumRush said:
I hear ya bish. How much longer for the floors?
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Dude is starting Saturday at 7am. Said 3-4 days. I really hope so. I'd love to move in by next weekend.

Psychotext said:
Not long now at least. Funnily enough I had my offer on a house accepted in October... still not sorted out. Who knows how long it'll take.
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Yah, almost there. Buying property in the UK sounds difficult. Although most people tell me it's rough here in southern California. We found our house first day looking and they took our below asking price offer 4 hours after submitting it. And escrow finished in 4 weeks or less. Literally couldn't have been easier.

I've been extremely blessed, and the blessings are not stopping at all. It's nuts. But life is changing so much and I really want to be back in a routine. So I feel like I'm in chaos most of the time. Everything is all over the place.
 
V

velociraptor

Junior Member
MjFrancis said:
This is absolutely one of the most important and overlooked facets of weightlifting.

Sleep, bros, sleep.
Click to expand...

True. I struggle with sleep so much. Today I've only managed 5 hours. I think it could be a reason why I have dropped more strength than anticipated on my 'attempted cut'. Heh.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
despire said:
Honey is sugar. Sugar is sugar.
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On a low level, they're fairly similar. Sucrose is 50% fructose, 50% glucose. Honey is anywhere from 50-75% fructose, 25-50% glucose... however, sucrose obviously needs breaking down first to get at the fructose and glucose.

Interestingly enough, bees are fed massive amounts of sugar in either "cake" form or as a liquid solution at many points in the year.
 
H

Hoo-doo

Banned
Your thread inspired me to take my fitness game more seriously, Sean. Amazing work.

I've been doing some improvised lifting at the gym three times a week for a good while now. Mostly free weights and machines. But I think it's time I get serious and start working on core compound lifts with the barbell so i've been eyeing stronglifts' 5x5 routines and starting strength.

My main goal right now is to get familiar with the deadlift, bench and squat and go from there, building strength. One thing i'm wondering though, do these lifts require a spotter at all times? Because my preferred gym time is usually pretty late in the evening and i'd hate to have to make sure there's someone around everytime I want to go lift.
 
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