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Football Thread 2013/14 |ot21| Get a refund.

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W

wedward

Member
I think this argument really stated when Viva said Arsenal were a world away. I don't think we were.

An in regards to injuries, Arsenal's crisis was worse than any other teams.

When did Liverpool have Gerrard, Sturrige, Suarez and Couthino all out at the same time for a month?

When did City have Aguero, Silva, Yaya and Fernandino out at the same time for a month?

Obviously this is down to our shit medical staff.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
jtb said:
and this isn't the first time we were in the title race since 2011, it's the first time we were in the title race since 2008. 2011 we were never top of the table, iirc. look, we faded badly, that's why we didn't win the title—thanks we all got that—but when you're top of the table for half of the season, that's got to count at least a little bit towards being in the title race.

also, I'm almost certain 79 points is a far larger points total than any other 4th place finisher... maybe in league history. this is not the same kind of 4th place finish of the past three seasons.

was chelsea not in the league title race because they lost key games in march and april? on one hand, Mou said they weren't and we have to take everything that he says as gospel because he's soooo hilarious and such a great troll.

on the other hand, they were clearly in the title race. but because it's Chelsea and because it's Mourinho, we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Yeah it counts for...being in a position where you could challenge, and then throwing it away. Whatever it counts for..it's not really much.

Chelsea were involved till relatively late on, 3 games out they were within 2 points. Don't think anybody buys into anything Mourinho says other than his pet journo's when it comes to those types of comments, not even the journo's were buying into it tbh. Not sure why that's relevant here. Chelsea had a great chance to win it and they threw it away. Think everybody accepts that.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Arsenal fans whining about injuries is hypocritical—Wenger is the one who is almost always directly responsible for these injuries.

Theo was a fluke, but Ozil? Ramsey? Those are on Wenger.
 
W

wedward

Member
Freewheelin' said:
That was bad yeah. But we also had no answer in the Everton away and Liverpool away.


Obviously to the former. No brainer really. But I expected more from Ozil for the price we paid for him. £42m is a hell of a lot of money.
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Eh, just because you paid a lot of money doesn't guarantee anything.

I'll say this, if next season he doesn't improve on this season I will be disappointed and start to worry.

Give him a season.
 
D

dc89

Member
arkon said:
Pitchside view of the Etihad during the title-winning celebrations?
Click to expand...

TNtai3I.gif
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Salvadora said:
How could he sign Ba when Mourinho said no?

Mate, I didn't say you were trolling just that you have a tendency to try and get a rise when it comes to Arsenal related stuff. Reason I'm not answering your posts is that it has nothing to do with your original post about us thinking we had a chance (and later the world away comment).
Click to expand...

wedward said:
I think this argument really stated when Viva said Arsenal were a world away. I don't think we were.

An in regards to injuries, Arsenal's crisis was worse than any other teams.

When did Liverpool have Gerrard, Sturrige, Suarez and Couthino all out at the same time for a month?

When did City have Aguero, Silva, Yaya and Fernandino out at the same time for a month?

Obviously this is down to our shit medical staff.
Click to expand...

I stand by my comment.

As I have said, 10 games away, you never got any nearer. That's not even close. World away, not close, bottled it. Pick whatever words you want but I really can't see how not closing the gap, a pretty big gap too, from 10 games out...can even be anything else.

Genuinely interested to hear what you guys think about that. It paints a stark image when it's laid out like that. Do you really think that's a good challenge? I genuinely believe it's a weak go at it. Yes, relative to your other attempts, it's decent, maybe even good - but that's not really a meaningful barometer.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Vivalaraza said:
Yeah it counts for...being in a position where you could challenge, and then throwing it away. Whatever it counts for..it's not really much.

Chelsea were involved till relatively late on, 3 games out they were within 2 points. Don't think anybody buys into anything Mourinho says other than his pet journo's when it comes to those types of comments, not even the journo's were buying into it tbh. Not sure why that's relevant here. Chelsea had a great chance to win it and they threw it away. Think everybody accepts that.
Click to expand...

Chelsea finished three points ahead of us. They were never as close as the table suggested because City had two games in hand for basically the entire second half of the season. They started collapsing shortly after we did. Is one month the difference? If you collapse in March, you have a great chance and threw it away but you collapse in February after being top of the table all season long and you were never really in it?

like, what's the threshold here? at what point have Arsenal made it?
 
S

Suen

Member
wedward said:
I think this argument really stated when Viva said Arsenal were a world away. I don't think we were.

An in regards to injuries, Arsenal's crisis was worse than any other teams.

When did Liverpool have Gerrard, Sturrige, Suarez and Couthino all out at the same time for a month?

When did City have Aguero, Silva, Yaya and Fernandino out at the same time for a month?

Obviously this is down to our shit medical staff.
Click to expand...
Medical staff, Wenger playing some players far too often without any break and not enough depth in the squad. Seriously, if we had better depth and didn't have as many injuries it's not that crazy to say that we had a very good chance at winning the league. This doesn't mean we should excuse our poor performance against top clubs, especially in our games against United which was simply inexcusable. I think the team lack a strong mentality against stronger opponents.
 
F

Freewheelin'

Member
wedward said:
Eh, just because you paid a lot of money doesn't guarantee anything.

I'll say this, if next season he doesn't improve on this season I will be disappointed and start to worry.

Give him a season.
Click to expand...
Oh, I expect him to be a lot better next season for sure. Madrid broke the transfer record for Bale, and he's been excellent all season...does this guarantee the high fee they paid for him? Yes.
 
W

wedward

Member
jtb said:
Arsenal fans whining about injuries is hypocritical—Wenger is the one who is almost always directly responsible for these injuries.

Theo was a fluke, but Ozil? Ramsey? Those are on Wenger.
Click to expand...

Jack was a fluke also.

If we have Jack and Theo healthy we are in a much better position.

Ozil decided to play for 45 minutes when he knew he was hurt. He could have made it worse.

Wenger is to blame for Ramsey though.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
jtb said:
Chelsea finished three points ahead of us. They were never as close as the table suggested because City had two games in hand for basically the entire second half of the season. They started collapsing shortly after we did. Is one month the difference? If you collapse in March, you have a great chance and threw it away but you collapse in February after being top of the table all season long and you were never really in it?

like, what's the threshold here? at what point have Arsenal made it?
Click to expand...

I don't think the points at the end of the season matter as much as people say they do.

As I said before, we have lost two titles in recent years by 1 points...but we weren't actually close to winning those titles cos we made those points up at the end when it didn't really matter.

Chelsea were 2 points off 3 games out, and that's taking into account the games in hand that City had.

As I said many times before, Arsenal, 7 out with 10 to go, at no stage got any smaller than that.

Not really comparable IMO. And I don't even think Chelsea had any spectacularly close shave either by the way. They have work to do to get closer next season.
 
S

Scum

Junior Member
"Mario Kart 8's character roster criticised for a lack of skin colour diversity."

Mario Kart...skin colour...I don't even.

Gaming side, pls.
 
W

wedward

Member
Freewheelin' said:
Madrid broke the transfer record for Bale, and he's been excellent all season...does this guarantee the high fee they paid for him? Yes.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't guarantee anything.

Neymar was 80 mil. What did that guarantee?

Modric was 33 mil. Did that guarantee a great first season? No, he was worse than Ozil in his first season.

There are tons of examples. Money guarantees nothing. They are just humans. Putting a price tag on them doesn't change that. It changes your expectations, but that's on you.
 
J

jtb

Banned
last season's table:

Manchester United 89
Manchester City 78
Chelsea 75
Arsenal 73

this season's table

Manchester City 86
Liverpool 84
Chelsea 82
Arsenal 79

all the top teams made significant progress this season. we were closer to the title this season than we were last season. more than that, we were clearly a better team this season than last season.

I don't believe in psychologizing about sport. either you get results or you don't. the results are improving. either they're going to match arbitrary targets that matter (ie. winning the league) or arbitrary targets that don't (ie. being in the title race).

honestly, I don't really disagree that 7 points is a lot. and we didn't win the title with much of the damage self-inflicted. but we're clearly improving which is more than I can say for any period of the club post-2008. and we should put the trophy drought to bed this weekend. I don't see any reason not to be optimistic about the future besides Wenger's continued employment by the team.
 
P

Plasma

Banned
Sounds like Sagna is definitely off to City, bit annoyed but it's our own fault really we should have sorted out his contract sooner.

Not sure why he'd want to played second fiddle to Zableta though I'm sure he could get 100k a week from another club and still get in the first team every week.
 
W

Wilbur

Banned
Nah look, viva is saying it like this.

Say with 10 games to go, you're 36 points behind in second place. You win that ten games, the team in first loses the rest of their games. Now you're only six points behind. It doesn't matter.

Chelsea, City and Liverpool all dropped points near the end of the season, distorting a title race that arsenal went out of long before.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Vivalaraza said:
I don't think the points at the end of the season matter as much as people say they do.

As I said before, we have lost two titles in recent years by 1 points...but we weren't actually close to winning those titles cos we made those points up at the end when it didn't really matter.

Chelsea were 2 points off 3 games out, and that's taking into account the games in hand that City had.

As I said many times before, Arsenal, 7 out with 10 to go, at no stage got any smaller than that.

Not really comparable IMO. And I don't even think Chelsea had any spectacularly close shave either by the way. They have work to do to get closer next season.
Click to expand...

I don't really disagree with any of this besides the points total stuff. the points total is the only thing that matters. I don't buy into "players bottling under the pressure during the title race" theories when there's almost always simpler, far more logical reasons to explain why teams get the results that they do. psychologizing is fun because we can say anything we want about it knowing that there's no evidence to support or disprove it. but it's useless.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Wilbur said:
Nah look, viva is saying it like this.

Say with 10 games to go, you're 36 points behind in second place. You win that ten games, the team in first loses the rest of their games. Now you're only six points behind. It doesn't matter.

Chelsea, City and Liverpool all dropped points near the end of the season, distorting a title race that arsenal went out of long before.
Click to expand...

fyi, we were not mathematically eliminated from the title race with 10 games to go. and teams dropped points in the run-in. but I do agree that mathematical elimination is a reliable indicator of whether or not a team has a chance of winning the title, just as it is on the opposite end of the table w/ relegated teams.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
jtb said:
I don't really disagree with any of this besides the points total stuff. the points total is the only thing that matters. I don't buy into "players bottling under the pressure during the title race" theories when there's almost always simpler, far more logical reasons to explain why teams get the results that they do. psychologizing is fun because we can say anything we want about it knowing that there's no evidence to support or disprove it. but it's useless.
Click to expand...

Well - this is moving onto a different point now.

Personally I do believe the mental pressure that comes with games matters. You're right, can't prove it and I'm more than happy to accept there are alternative views on that one. But my inkling is that Arsenal would fare pretty badly if they had to win the last 5 games or whatever. But the thing is, they're never that close for us to even now. That's the crux of my point - they never even get to that stage.

Which is why I am maintaining they're still a pretty long way off.

I agree, Arsenal fans should be optimistic. There is a fair bit to be optimistic about if you're an Arsenal fan, especially relative to the endings of other seasons.
 
S

Salvadora

Member
Vivalaraza said:
I stand by my comment.

As I have said, 10 games away, you never got any nearer. That's not even close. World away, not close, bottled it. Pick whatever words you want but I really can't see how not closing the gap, a pretty big gap too, from 10 games out...can even be anything else.

Genuinely interested to hear what you guys think about that. It paints a stark image when it's laid out like that. Do you really think that's a good challenge? I genuinely believe it's a weak go at it. Yes, relative to your other attempts, it's decent, maybe even good - but that's not really a meaningful barometer.
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I'm not at a computer or else I'd type more, but I can't see why'd you stand by your original post. It was laughing at Arsenal fans who thought we had a chance. Which is absurd when you consider how long we led the table for. As your stuff about the title challenge, I don't disagree. We were out of it long before it ended and were always playing catch-up. However, this has devolved into a matter of semantics on how you define worlds away. It is an improvement on last season and we should look to build on it.
 
J

jtb

Banned
wedward said:
Jack was a fluke also.

If we have Jack and Theo healthy we are in a much better position.

Ozil decided to play for 45 minutes when he knew he was hurt. He could have made it worse.

Wenger is to blame for Ramsey though.
Click to expand...

Wenger is totally to blame for Jack's first injury though. I do believe that. He was criminally overplayed in his breakthrough season, and, unlike Cesc, RVP, never spent any time injured, so there must have been so much stress put on that ankle of his.
 
M

Meier

Member
Arsenal had a great final stretch of the season in terms of wins that left them closer in points than they probably were in reality. I think we will probably finish over 90 points next season. I can't really envision us starting so poorly on the road again -- I would expect it'll be very unlikely we drop points to a newly promoted team next season let alone lose to them.

With that being said, I wouldn't necessarily expect an 8 game win streak in the December/January period again because we'll lose Yaya to the AFCON again next season.

I'm still laughing at "a wee bit new to them" -- that's going to make me chuckle for a very long time.
 
O

operon

Member
Viva is so right. In a season which had no Fergie and a loser in charge if United. An aging chelsea with no striker and city with a new manager who had won nowt. 7 points is a world away.
 
J

jtb

Banned
operon said:
Viva is so right. In a season which had no Fergie and a loser in charge if United. An aging chelsea with no striker and city with a new manager who had won nowt. 7 points is a world away.
Click to expand...

yup, if Liverpool could finish second then it really was a piss poor league amirite
 
P

Plasma

Banned
jtb said:
Wenger is totally to blame for Jack's first injury though. I do believe that. He was criminally overplayed in his breakthrough season, and, unlike Cesc, RVP, never spent any time injured, so there must have been so much stress put on that ankle of his.
Click to expand...

Same with Ramsey's admitted to overplaying him when he knew he needed a rest, I think a lot of it has to do with the medical staff though. We have too many injuries that start of 1-2 weeks and end up being months instead.

I think Chamberlain even said he hired a personal trainer to get him fit for the FA Cup Final and the World Cup.
 
E

Elchele

Member
operon said:
Viva is so right. In a season which had no Fergie and a loser in charge if United. An aging chelsea with no striker and city with a new manager who had won nowt. 7 points is a world away.
Click to expand...

City had never been better before. But Arsenal should move on
 
L

Lightning

Banned
Realistically the league was over after we failed to beat Stoke away. Swansea draw was another slap and no way should we get played off the park by Everton and Liverpool or Chelsea.

You can blame injuries but wenger bottled it with tactics and refusing to acknowledge outside of our starting 11 we have serious issues.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Plasma said:
Same with Ramsey's admitted to overplaying him when he knew he needed a rest, I think a lot of it has to do with the medical staff though. We have too many injuries that start of 1-2 weeks and end up being months instead.

I think Chamberlain even said he hired a personal trainer to get him fit for the FA Cup Final and the World Cup.
Click to expand...

incompetent medical staff, Wenger doesn't rotate, Wenger doesn't buy squad depth—plenty of blame to go around

Lightning said:
Realistically the league was over after we failed to beat Stoke away. Swansea draw was another slap and no way should we get played off the park by Everton and Liverpool or Chelsea.

You can blame injuries but wenger bottled it with tactics and refusing to acknowledge outside of our starting 11 we have serious issues.
Click to expand...

agreed. Everton, Liverpool, Chelsea were lost before kickoff. we may well still have lost them with competent tactics, but holy shit Wenger deserves the lion's share of the immediate blame for those losses.
 
S

Salvadora

Member
operon, that's a Chelsea with Mourinho at the helm. One of the most successful managers in the world. City spent huge amounts of money, again, and already had a world class squad. And Pelligrini is no unproven manager
 
W

wedward

Member
Plasma said:
We gave Rosicky another two years when he was 33, I'm pretty sure the policy has changed at the club already.
Click to expand...

Arteta isn't getting a long term deal because he won't be able to play at this level beyond another season.

If we don't buy a replacement this summer i'll be shocked.
 
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