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Fugitive ex-U.S. spy Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer
- Thread starter NYCmetsfan
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Exactly. The Espionage Act was never used against a whistleblower until Snowden and it's essentially unfightable in court. He will never get a fair trial as long as the US continues to hold this stance.
But hes a hero because FUK DA GUVMENT XD!!!
John Kowalski
Banned
snowden you can come chill in my place if you want, i promise i'm not in the us
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Yes. He did a stint in Europe and was spying with the NSA
Yeah, he's a criminal and should go to jail for his actions. Nothing he exposed was illegal, or unknown to Congress. He showed not one single instance of improper use of the information that was being collected. In fact, everything he leaked confirmed the purpose of these programs: to stop terrorist attacks, not spy on Americans. What he did was take a government contracting job for the sole purpose of stealing classified information that could seriously damage our nation's security. That's all very illegal, and deserving of punishment.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I'm of the opinion the good he did basically is canceled out by the bad. I would not hail him a hero, or the journalists who decided what parts of international actions were relevant.
Neither Snowden nor the Journalists who went through the information he collected had the right to release information on actions taken internationally. Many will disagree here, but I compare it to someone in the CIA releasing information on covert operations.
At the same time, I don't think he should be jailed, as the US violated the trust between it's people and privacy as to what was expected. In particular much of what is done is secret past the point of necessity. What is particularly egregious is the lack of accountability after. I'm of the opinion that law enforcement and anti-terror ops need access to information, but if there is nothing in place to prevent abuse either during or after the actions are taken, it will be abused. So far nothing has been done to try to remedy that.
Neither Snowden nor the Journalists who went through the information he collected had the right to release information on actions taken internationally. Many will disagree here, but I compare it to someone in the CIA releasing information on covert operations.
At the same time, I don't think he should be jailed, as the US violated the trust between it's people and privacy as to what was expected. In particular much of what is done is secret past the point of necessity. What is particularly egregious is the lack of accountability after. I'm of the opinion that law enforcement and anti-terror ops need access to information, but if there is nothing in place to prevent abuse either during or after the actions are taken, it will be abused. So far nothing has been done to try to remedy that.
Princess Carl
Member
So many fucking awful Americans in this thread. Government has been killing/cheating/lying for decades, the guy has the guts to show this to everyone, and you're gonna get butthurt over foreign talks and pretend that invalidates the totality of what he did?
Give me a break, its fucking shameful.
Can't wait to hear the bullshit about fair trial. Look around, what stories make you confident in the US justice process, ESPECIALLY when there is a specific goal for those looking to press the charges, to shut him up for being a hero.
Give me a break, its fucking shameful.
Can't wait to hear the bullshit about fair trial. Look around, what stories make you confident in the US justice process, ESPECIALLY when there is a specific goal for those looking to press the charges, to shut him up for being a hero.
benjipwns
Banned
I'm not sure if I like this gritty reboot where we're supposed to root against the hero of the film.
A decade sure is a long time I guess:
I misread the thread title. I thought it said he was spying for another country.
The only thing it confirmed was that it's not working:
Washington Post
"Traditional law enforcement and investigative methods" help fight terrorism. What a concept.
Read your question.
Erm no. It was revealed again and again that they spied on millions of Americans. And no, he didn't join a contractor to steal sensitive data. You are rewriting history.
That private contractors could actually do this, with such an extent, because the goverment granted them so much power, should be a warning sign for you.
If none of it was improper why did the NSA feel compelled to lie about it for years?
The company line was always that the NSA was not reading civilian emails because: a) they didn't have a warrant to do so, and b) it is illegal to do so without said warrant. Then the Snowden leaks reveal that, contrary to the NSA's public statements, they actually are reading emails and collecting phone data without warrants.
Which part of this do you consider proper use?
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/10/5396920/drone-strikes-have-killed-innocents-with-nsa-data
Quite the opinion. NSA's intelligence to their consumers often serve as the primary pillars in geolocating and identifying targets for strikes.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
yup.
dehydratedbabies
Member
What don't you like about Snowden as a person?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Hero? No. Every government has shady wrongdoings. He's a traitor.
What does other governments being shady have to do with his actions?
So because other governments are shady, he should not have released anything? That makes him a traitor?
Because it was a clandestine intelligence gathering program and it's literally illegal for anyone at the NSA to talk candidly about it? Spying wasn't invented after 2002 folks, only the methods have changed.
What Snowden "exposed" is that the data collection got too vast to properly audit and monitor, and the potential for improper use. The problem is, he could have done that without compromising the agencies efforts, breaking the law, and actually endangering lives.
Yes he did. He admitted it was the only reason he sought out and took the job.
You're going to have to be specific about calling him a traitor. If you emphasized him taking docs without knowing exactly what he was exfiltrating then that's valid. The bulk of the stuff he took were technical stuff meant for all eyes so they're often missing the exact context. Further he dumped the docs without even really identifying what he took. Imagine robbing a bank blind, that's what he did.
If you want to go further, all of the US's enemies have successfully co-opted the leaked tech because of Snowden, he basically gave them a free technological leap-ahead in cyber warfare. But no, let's just outright call him a traitor without reasoning his incompetence and the whys along with discussing the damage he caused.
In this case, NSA is actually behind law enforcement. There's been large pushes for the "filtration" concept over on the LE side that's just begun to be implemented. IC have been doing the same thing before the Snowden thing. The concept is basically to filter out all irrelevant data collections, it's kind of a band-aid to bulk collection but it's supposed to minimize collateral data collects before it even reaches the analyst's eyes.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Because releasing things about one government doesn't really put us in a better position. Suddenly you have critical information available to everyone, and it puts us in a disadvantage politically.
So yes, he shouldn't have. He's a traitor. I'm not a patriot, but I'm also not an idiot. I don't need confirmation of what this country has done, but I also wouldn't want that dirty laundry for everyone to see. Hell, years after the fact that Snowden leaked the information now it's like...ok so what? So the NSA taps every thing possible. Nobody in the USA has done anything about it. Other countries have asked us to stop. We still do it. What was the end game? People saying 'Oh the USA is totally evil and shady'? What does that accomplish? Edit-If he did any damage, it was putting soldiers over in the middle east in danger. That enough is to sour him in my eyes.
He knew exactly what he was taking, though. He didn't just blindly grab documents.
He did lose a few sympathy points with me when he accepted to participate in this little televised Q&A session with Putin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLC2WbIaq_Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLC2WbIaq_Y
benjipwns
Banned
It's like that other traitorous bastard Solzhenitsyn.
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
The end game was to make people aware of what was happening and to bring about change in the way the intelligence community works, specifically getting them to recognize the right to privacy of the people it works to protect. But that hasn't happened because people would rather bitch about him rather than the shit the government is doing.
"Meta-data" doesn't give you the full story about someone. So you still need traditional spies (on the grown) infiltrating organization (cells) to actually combat terrorism.
He's recanting there. That's like how Al-Qaeda would claim that 9/11 was to draw the US into the Middle East and to force the US to overspend and bankrupt itself. You can go through the leaked NSA docs and realize that half the stuff released is useless without context, and this is context the public won't understand. He pretty much did a hard crawl of the classed network meant for all eyes and did a hard dump.
Right I agree with the deficiencies of just using metadata and I criticize the consumers for relying on two points of intelligence based on such. But I was pointing out NSA's position of contribution in direct strikes against terrorists.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I'm glad you're speaking for him. He said it himself.
Dude Abides
Banned
Giving up, eh? Sigh.
Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?
Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?
So now you're more worried about dirty laundry than what the government does behind all our backs. Yeah, nice priorities there. Then you blame HIM because no one has acted upon the information he released, which makes absolutely no sense.
Because he knows he won't anymore, or if he does, it won't be for very long. The man is a celebrity now, between the documentary and now a feature Hollywood film. He might do some time but afterwards he'll live the life of a rockstar. Think Kevin Mitnick. That's way better than bouncing around shithole dictatorships for the rest of your life.
Then the law needs to be changed.
Have you ever wrote a crawler/used before?
Who is "us"? The government, or its citizens? Sure the government is worse off. That I don't care about. As for the public: It's NEVER a bad thing to be well-informed, so I don't see how the public is at a disadvantage.
1. It was always believed that only conspiracy nuts thought that the government was illegally collecting information about them. But now it's "lol everyone knew that". But regardless, the government LIED about doing it. I don't know about you, but I'm not OK with my government pandering to me to get voted into office and then lie to me once they're there. Especially about something as serious as 4th Amendment rights.
2. How have his disclosures put the soldiers in danger?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is more or less how I'm feeling these days
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Because the Government will keep doing it. The USA isn't a government that you can exactly topple or change their mind. It's sad, but it's the reality of the era we live in. The government is too ingrained that not only will changing their policies take generations(And it's not guaranteed.), but nobody would be against our own safety. If the government stops even one potential terrorist thanks to spying on its people, then can you really be against it? If even one life is saved...yeah it's shitty they spy on people, but they won't stop.
Irrelevant. His word is his word. Even if he didn't specifically search for it, he's saying he cared about the safety. He threw out a wide-net in order to catch a few things, ended up catching alot more. Nobody is surprised.
USA in general is worse off in it's standing. And it's citizens aren't free from that-Biases against citizens will have formed by different countries.
Princess Carl
Member
This is a terrible excuse for the abuse of authority and practically a call for authoritarianism. What a cowardly response to a hero.
I think if Putin wants to have an interview with you, you're gonna have an interview with Putin.
Oh I see, now we get to it. It's not because of what he did, it's because you prefer the "let's all duck our head in the sand" status quo. Yeah well that doesn't make him a traitor, it makes you a lapdog.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
His mercy against whistleblowers will truly be his greatest legacy.
NobleGundam
Banned
Fair trial? LOL
Want better rights than what America has to provide and ran away to Russia and NOW you wanna come back home? You have no home here.
Want better rights than what America has to provide and ran away to Russia and NOW you wanna come back home? You have no home here.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
So what have you done today that frees the people from the governments spying? Yeah, we know about it. Now what?
Yea I know it would be atypical of Obama but Snowden really is a very public embarassment for us as a nation. I can see a pardon being done just to get this out of the spotlight.
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
This is a pathetic stance to take and its the reason mass surveillance happens.
'It's too much to ask so why bother?'
These things don't change by attacking the guy who released the evidence , they change by attacking the people who are doing the fucked up shit.
benjipwns
Banned
Yeah, the guy who's pardoned or commuted fewer sentences than any President since James Garfield (because he got shot and died...or George Washington if you want Presidents who lived longer) and brags about how he gets to murder people without due process is totally going to pardon a pain in his ass like Snowden.
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