Can you only think in the short term? He only leaked it a few years ago. Things rarely change overnight. People's perceptions have changed and we're talking about it more and more.
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Fugitive ex-U.S. spy Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer
- Thread starter NYCmetsfan
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Can you only think in the short term? He only leaked it a few years ago. Things rarely change overnight. People's perceptions have changed and we're talking about it more and more.
You are confusing Snowden with the journalists who actually revealed those things. He gave the documents to journalists and they revealed what they thought was in the public interest. Although there were things Snowden didn't want released, he had no say in what was actually released.
I think Snowden is a hero. What he has done is given the people a chance to decide for themselves if they want to live in a world of mass surveillance. The danger isn't necessarily in what they are currently doing with the system they have created, the danger is in the system itself. As Snowden said, all it takes is a policy change.
The information is there, if people choose not to act, that is not Snowden's fault, it's the apathetic publics. Going by your logic, Rosa Parks should have just sat on that bus and kept her mouth shut because things didn't change overnight.
Laughed pretty hard at this. Thanks.
If the US doesn't give him a fair trial than he is vacuously venerated as a hero. Which defeats your agenda.
Honestly one major problem is that he had no ideal way to internally handle the issues at hand. Even if secrecy and violation of privacy could be used to benevolent ends, it doesn't account for the problems. He had no way of discretely dealing with the problems other than to stick his neck out. Yeah there were side effects from this, yeah there was sensitive information disclosed. He couldn't have done it the right way, because they denied him that. It was the lesser of two evils. The US government is not some homogenous perfect god ordained entity. It is a valiant but flawed and multifaceted attempt at carrying out human governance. Butting heads with ones government is not indicative of treachery, it can equally be an attempt to better shape and hone it. To compel it with greater responsibility.
JaseMath
Member
Watch the Frontline episodes on the NSA and you'll change your tune pretty quick.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
I second this. I was pretty down on him before watching those episodes. Dude is a hero in my book. Sucks that he got stuck in Russia.
So many ignorant people conflate their government with themselves. You're not patriots, you're deluded nationalists, and this is simply another example of why George Orwell regarded you as the worst enemies of peace.
He has done more for his country than you ever will and has more right to be in the US than you do.
He has done more for his country than you ever will and has more right to be in the US than you do.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Maybe. But it's also asking the government to stop spying on everyone. That's a tall order, one that would put us at a disadvantage against terror attacks, and especially recently a woman was stopped from joining ISIS.
Maybe one day when the world has peace we can rally against spying, but in todays climate..it'd be a disadvantage to do so.
The fact that so many consider him a hero should warrant reconsideration of the laws he's alleged to have broken. Did he cause harm to anything besides foreign relations? Even then, was the harm tangible in any way? Nothing has changed since the leaks. Nobody has died due to information he released, nobody at the NSA even lost their job. Someone, please identify the harm he's caused that justifies vilifying the man by charging him with such a Cold War-era crime.
Snowden is not a fucking spy. It's pathetic that the bar is so low that a goddamn desk jockey telling the public that their rights are being systematically infringed upon grants him hero status.
People sure do want the law rigidly enforced when it's not a government agency in the hot seat. A pitiful stance, it takes no critical thought to be so entrenched in your nationalistic fervor.
The right thing to do would be to let him back, give him a stupid medal, appoint him as NSA overseer and live happily ever after. Instead, he'll wind up dead as soon as he's faded into obscurity, and the world will continue being the shitty place that it's always been.
Sickening.
Snowden is not a fucking spy. It's pathetic that the bar is so low that a goddamn desk jockey telling the public that their rights are being systematically infringed upon grants him hero status.
People sure do want the law rigidly enforced when it's not a government agency in the hot seat. A pitiful stance, it takes no critical thought to be so entrenched in your nationalistic fervor.
The right thing to do would be to let him back, give him a stupid medal, appoint him as NSA overseer and live happily ever after. Instead, he'll wind up dead as soon as he's faded into obscurity, and the world will continue being the shitty place that it's always been.
Sickening.
benjipwns
Banned
Actually, that's basically what she did.
"Ideally" she would have got up and moved to the back of the bus or gotten off. And perhaps ironically to this discussion, Parks deliberately sat in a whites only seat. It had been discussed and she had volunteered and been chosen to be the one to do it as part of the continued campaign of civil disobedience*. It didn't just happen to happen randomly. It was a response to Claudette Colvin's arrest nine months earlier.
*Which it should be noted, is illegal.
If it's illegal for the director of the NSA to testify truthfully about the nature of their activities that they're being questioned for, then what, pray tell, are they doing testifying before a Senate committee in the first place? What's the point of Senate committee hearings if the expectation is that they'll lie?
The NSA said they weren't reading emails or collecting phone records, and that doing so would require a warrant. Snowden reveals that the NSA actually is doing so, and doing it without warrants. But the NSA is blameless here because we can't expect them to ever speak candidly about what they're actually doing?
Basically what it boils down to is, where the fuck is the accountability here?
How? If it's illegal to tell the public about the bulk collection of phone records, and reporting to his supervisors is useless since it's his supervisors who are overseeing the project in the first place, then what's the third solution? How does he "get that done without compromising agency efforts, breaking the law and endangering lives"?
Right, but you know what I mean.
She should not have took a stand and stirred the pot is the comparison.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in this thread who is against legitimate spying, such as: monitoring domestic at-risk targets with a warrant, monitoring overseas governments and infiltrating terrorist groups (domestic and abroad).
What people do have a problem with is blanket/mass spying that usurps the Fourth Amendment, but is supported by the fear mongering PATRIOT Act. Spying on American targets without a warrant (and no not a FISA court rubber-stamp warrant), should be illegal, full stop.
benjipwns
Banned
But you're ignoring that her actions alone didn't make it so blacks could ride in the front of the bus.
Princess Carl
Member
Seriously, its disgusting. I don't understand how some of these posters ever got into this mindset. Truly shameful.
This is my favorite part, the "everyone really knew"
Then how come people that did believe it were referenced as Tom Clancy nutjobs, or crazy conspiracy theorists.
benjipwns
Banned
Which is why she shouldn't have even bothered.
The government is us. When people speak ill of the United States government or Americans, etc. they're really attacking us personally.
Our honor must be defended. At any cost.
I never really thought Snowden was in the wrong and Citizenfour really confirmed that. He left his girlfriend and family knowing he might not really get to see them again to get this information out. I'm not sure coming back to the US will be a good thing for him since he'll probably end up in jail forever. Hopefully he can find a nicer place than Russia to stay.
Oh, I see you're being sarcastic, I didn't realize.
Snowden's revelations caused Brazil to back out of a multi-billion dollar deal with the US and Boeing. - http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/20/us-boeing-brazil-insight-idUSBRE9BJ10P20131220. That's the big one I remember, but there were likely smaller deals that were similarly affected.
FullMetalx117
Member
He's probably the closest thing to being the The Dark Knight of this world...
He needs to find asylum in a nicer place. He'd be put away in jail forever
He needs to find asylum in a nicer place. He'd be put away in jail forever
Many other people involved with the NSA have tried to do this, and they were either sidelined or fired.
benjipwns
Banned
That's always a good one. He should have reported to his bosses that his bosses were doing illegal and shady things. Followed the chain of command.
Yeah I love that argument. They don't like the WAY he did it.
What other way would there be without them instantly arresting him and throwing away the key?
We may never know if any agents or informers were harmed because of Snowden's actions. This would be my main concern about giving him a medal.
I'd sit down and have a cup of coffee with him.
If it could be proven that his actions did not put any intelligence officers in harms way, I say give him the keys to what ever city he wants.
I'd sit down and have a cup of coffee with him.
If it could be proven that his actions did not put any intelligence officers in harms way, I say give him the keys to what ever city he wants.
Gnome Scat
Member
I hope he finds asylum somewhere other than Russia.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Plenty of people who have absolutely fucked this country didn't face a trial. This guy absolutely shouldn't have to face a trial.
SugarDaddy
Member
If I were him, I would never come back.
Doesn't change whether or not he deserves to be able to, in my eyes he did a noble deed, and personally, I'm tired of the nationalistic attitude that the U.S. is somehow impervious to criticism and internal corruption.
I hope for his sake he doesn't return, and finds a home somewhere a little more tolerable than Russia and a bit more inviting than the U.S. is presently.
Doesn't change whether or not he deserves to be able to, in my eyes he did a noble deed, and personally, I'm tired of the nationalistic attitude that the U.S. is somehow impervious to criticism and internal corruption.
I hope for his sake he doesn't return, and finds a home somewhere a little more tolerable than Russia and a bit more inviting than the U.S. is presently.
I've lost count of how may times I have said this, but there have been arguments made in the past by tech experts who have said that spying on everyone is less efficient not more efficient. I'm not sure people grasp the sheer scale of the data they are collecting. They collect so much data they are now building huge data facilities to store it all. They're literally drowning in it. .
Considering how much data they are collecting (literally everything) the amount of hits they would get back from searching keywords would be ridiculous. You would have to target your surveillance really to filter out the noise. Limit your surveillance to areas that are more likely to yield results/
Mass surveillance is great for retroactively looking back on people, but not so good for stopping terrorist plots you know very little about. There is simply too much data to sift through. It is likely to be missed. Generally speaking, they are far more likely to stop a terrorist plot if they have an actual target than not. Of course if they have a target then their surveillance capabilities become an extremely powerful tool.
Skellig Gra
Member
Yeah, I would never come back if I was him. Does he want to go to jail because that's pretty much guaranteed if he goes back. Plenty of other nice countries to live in.
Coriolanus
Banned
Or had their houses raided and guns pointed at their head while they took a bath.
But hey guys, going by the proper channels would've totes worked.
Dunno man, don't feel like taking a bullet for people badmouthing alabama.
Oh jesus christ.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Who are these individuals with plagued with ultra conservative ideologies and blind patriotism boarding on fanaticism?
How is snowden a traitor? The government was doing something illegal.
As Martin Luther King says some people are more devoted to order than to justice.
How is snowden a traitor? The government was doing something illegal.
As Martin Luther King says some people are more devoted to order than to justice.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I was going to bring this up, that they possibly can't sift through all the data but I stopped when they propped up their strawman.
It's akin to take a camera, getting in a car, and just filming through windows while driving across various suburbs for 24 hours. Sure you're invading peoples privacy, but one person having to sift through and catalog everything they see through a window is inefficient.
That's an analogy. Yeah, the US is illegally spying on every goddamn microbe in the USA, but they don't have the staff or capabilities to sift through every single thread, in that if your info is read off by someone, it'll mostly likely be a bot categorizing it. And if they focus on anyone, it's because they have reason to believe they may be planning or working with a terrorist-not just because you're an average joe.
Princess Carl
Member
He does, more than any of us on this board who claim to be an American. Being a shitty capitalist doesn't make you worthy.
Sorry wait, he should have followed chain of command and have nothing come of it, because for some reason you have a boner for that scenario.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
THe people who think Snowden is a traitor im sure are the same individuals who don't care about civil rights.
He may have changed history.
Imagine if people hadn't seen the hard evidence. I've only read the news, but people have been whistleblowing this stuff since the late 90s, and no one paid attention until other countries were pulled into it and the logical progression of wartime national security concerns that would have grown the project.
The US gov is kind of pinned into a corner with its responses. Not like they can confirm or deny anything. All they can do is point to the breach.
At this point it's the responsibility of the citizen who is informed to think and process and act through their civic powers to determine what should occur. If you spend your time waiting for cues on how to feel about this, you're not being a good citizen of where ever you live.
Imagine if people hadn't seen the hard evidence. I've only read the news, but people have been whistleblowing this stuff since the late 90s, and no one paid attention until other countries were pulled into it and the logical progression of wartime national security concerns that would have grown the project.
The US gov is kind of pinned into a corner with its responses. Not like they can confirm or deny anything. All they can do is point to the breach.
At this point it's the responsibility of the citizen who is informed to think and process and act through their civic powers to determine what should occur. If you spend your time waiting for cues on how to feel about this, you're not being a good citizen of where ever you live.
Everyone on that Senate committee already knew the NSA was collecting metadata about phone calls and emails. Why? Because they voted on the fucking bill that authorized it. So what you really had here was a witch hunt trying to pin this on a single individual, and Clapper was trying to give the best answers he could without compromising the program. We've known about the phone metadata since 2005, at least, so let's drop the pretense that they were trying to hide something here.
That's not the illegal part though, or well, not the part that he should be charged for. He should be charged for taking a federal job with intent to commit treason, stealing tons of sensitive data related to counter-terrorism, and giving it all to a member of the media. He would have never even had to leave the country if all he did was give one of those faceless interviews to CNN about how fucked the NSA was.
benjipwns
Banned
Or you may just be looking up the hot girl you saw at the bar or your ex-wife. Or something.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ting-sites-criminal-records-article-1.1914601
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nment-builds-a-huge-database-about-americans/
http://www.wired.com/2012/11/payout-for-cop-database-abuse/
http://www.copwatch.org/databaseabuse.html
Thankfully federal officials are trained better than this.
lololol
SliceSabre
Banned
So how do we prove we are true Americans to you oh great decider of who is a true American and who isn't?
I AM MORE AMERICAN THAN YOU seems like a really childish argument. That no one is making. Except for that one guy.
No joke man, have you ever taken a federal job? They literally make you sign a piece of paper saying you're not here to fuck up the government's shit.
Before my current career, i spent 1.5 years working network support for a safety agency under the DoT. I put some of the forms in the hire packet in my desk to fill out later and turn in but forget and never did. And the whole time I was there, nobody said a word about it.
benjipwns
Banned
Violating employment contracts aren't one of the specific criteria listed for treason in the Constitution.
That doesn't make it legal. I can have you sign a paper that says you are my indentured servant until 2030, that doesn't mean it holds legal scrutiny. Of course, in this case it doesn't matter anyway since the law is completely manipulated. They don't have any law to answer to since the very act of telling someone, "Hey, we may have a problem here" would land you in jail.
A traitor to who, the government? What he did was good the us citizens and that's all that matters. He exposed a huge spying program.
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