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GAF-Hop |OTX| Long Live the Watcher
- Thread starter Esch
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I agree with PD. Obviously Jay gave Kanye his start, but since then Jay has been feeding off kanye's creative talent which Jay lacks. I think that is the crux of what PD is saying. It's pretty obvious to me. Look at the quality of jay's work w/o ye versus the quality of ye's work w/o Jay. The difference is huge. Then you add in the fact that Yeezy carried WTT and largely produced jay's only two albums worth giving a damn about in the last 15 years and... Yeah the argument speaks for itself
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It only speaks for itself if you think rap started in 2001. But I guess that's just how shit goes. People forget there was a time before they were aware.
2014-15=1999.... So i'm just gonna disregard off top.
Kanye did not power Jay-Z from 1999 to his retirement, nor did he produce all of his quality material from that point on. Kanye had no part in American Gangster (which is a good album) and as far as relevance and who is feeding who, Kanye has done commercially better with Jay-Z's help than without. Jay-Z did better without Kanyes involvement numbers wise (relevancy) without Kanye West helping him like on BP3.
The majority of Jay's work in his career that is good, has nothing to do with Kanye aside from the Blueprint 1.
CountBlack
Member
This new DZA tho
It doesn't have a standout track, but the album overall is pretty good and it's a fun album to listen to every once in a while
Fallen and Ignorant Shit.
Hell yeah it does, Roc Boys is one of my favorite tracks.
First off, AG received high reviews from the fanbase and critics, so your perception of it's quality is not in line with how people felt about it. 2nd, "relevance" means sales. And the fact of the matter is that as far as album sales, when you look at the numbers it appears Jay is the one bolstering Kanye, not the other way around. As far as critically, Magna Carta and BP3 basically have similar metacritic levels last time i checked. The question is, if Jay is stealing from Kanye, what is he taking exactly? No one who brings this up ever has the ability to articulate what it is. Is he taking bars from him? Style? Subject matter? Beats (lol)? I mean occasionally I see him wearing some corny hypebeast shit that is clearly Kanye influenced, and a lot of the multilayered production he uses now is reminiscent of WTT Kanye, but not all of it is made by Kanye.
So...?
And what I said still applies; the vast majority of Jay-Z's quality catalogue has nothing to do with Kanye, nor does it have to do with any of the people PD cited (Jaz, Big, Kane)
It's been a while since I listened to the album, so I just can't remember a track right away, but it's a good album, so yeah..
Syph Medwes
Member
CountBlack
Member
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
If that's the entire case, then you understand how crazy it is to compare the Ye now with 2014 Jay? It'd be like some kid who just discovered Kanye with Yezus and thinking he's shit, without understanding the impact CD had on the industry. You can't just hand wave away the entire high point of one persons career and compare him a decade later against somebody who is still closer to their prime. If you compare them both at their prime, things are pretty neck and neck. And again, Stan all you want but trying to rewrite time and space on some "Ye made Jay" stuff is FEMA death camps level of crazy.
Jay makes music for Gwenyth Paltrow not for us, it works for him. He goes in the studio for a month or two every couple of years and that is pretty much it. He only does it at this point so the hip hop press can dickride him and to raise awareness to help business ventures. For instance I doubt ROC nation sports or whatever would have broken into that sector without Jay's media presence. The albums are just injections of money and publicity while he makes power moves.
His artistry has never been about showing his human side so his music feels like a fantasy but we never get to empathise with him. So he'll always have fans but nobody really will go to war for him because he wouldn't do it himself.
His artistry has never been about showing his human side so his music feels like a fantasy but we never get to empathise with him. So he'll always have fans but nobody really will go to war for him because he wouldn't do it himself.
CountBlack
Member
Speak for yourself, I like a little CEO rap once in a while because it gets me amped, that's why i keep Ross and modern Jay on gym playlists. I do agree that he's completely going through the motions on the pen though, and only shows out on features.
Jay has plenty of tracks that are more emotional/sad about his personal life (more than a handful), that just tells me you haven't listened to his catalogue really. Jay's weakness has never been talking about himself, it's talking about things that aren't himself; the world and social commentary.
I never said he sees it as charity work or he is paying homage. But I also don't think he some master evil plan to only sign guys who make him relevant. He is a business man like all record label moguls are. If he thinks an artist is hot and can blow him he will sign him. That's what all record execs do. You said it yourself, so why shouldn't the fans be happy when Jay signs a Cole or Electronica? Good business sense and good opportunity for internet darlings to make it big.
Only when Jay does it, there is some negative connotation people attach to him because its Jay. So everything he does is bad or has some ulterior motive.
I really don't think the mainstream loves the rap god style anything. The song Rap God itself did nothing on the charts, received no radio play, and is only even know because it was Em's single. Any other artist releases that it doesn't even make blip on the radar. The mainstream loves Em so no matter he puts out they will check it out at least but even then it didn't work. The only single he released that work was the most poppy, radio friendly, catchy single.
More than anything they love something that sounds good or catchy. Not even just a club single but something that seems to imply "buy the album there is more where this comes from".
I don't know if there is an exact science behind it all but there is something about an artist holding weight with the audience.
You can produce the biggest hit. Chart of the tops for the whole year and still have your album flop. I'm thinking of Robin Thicke. Did his record even sell? Or you can create a mild hit and go platinum and create an eternal buzz like Kendrick.
I think for as much as people on the internet shit on the mainstream audience, they know when an album will just 1 hot track with tons of filler not even worth listening to or when an artist is more than just the catchy first single.
You got different levels with the buying crowd. The stans of every artist who will make up the core purchasers. You got the young girl crowd that boy bands and pop starts thrive on until they age and have to adapt or disappear. And then you have the kind of following that consists of it all. Very few artists reach this point but when they do, no matter what they put out, they will get press, hype, and sales.
I'd agree with you if Kanye was a producer and producer only. He raps. He considers himself a rapper. He should be judged by the same standards. People gloss over his pop forays, terrible lines, and mediocre ability to rap and brush everything under the rug.
And if Jay really is such a leach who only finds a way to stay relevant off the back of others (as opposed to how other artists do it?), then don't you think if it wasn't Kanye he would have hopped onto or with someone else? So why even hammer the point that he used Kanye? If it wasn't Kanye it would haven been someone else.
Kanye benefited as much, if not more, with his association with Jay Z. Hell that first album of his, I only got around to listen to it because I was mainly only interested in the Jay verse on Never Let Me Down.
Tokubetsu
Member
Lil Debbie the only female rapper I follow on instagram for a reason breh.
PhoenixDark
Banned
808s sure, although it's influence is undeniable (note: I refuse to listen to it). MBDTF was universally praised, let's be real. Yeezus was on multiple best of 2013 lists, let's be real. When was the last time anyone thought Jay released a hip hop AOTY contender?
I'm not stanning Kanye, my views on him are well known. But I haven't read a single argument here that addresses my point.
I like it in the sense that if it's on then I wouldn't mind vibing with his big classic hits or the ones that may be less good but current. As to the emotional stuff off the top of my head lost one and where have you been Jay just doesn't sound sincere to me. Like in the latter song I felt bean's verse more than Jays. Perhaps it's because its because of all that CEO rap and the persona he embodies.
... And that's part of the reason that Jay doesn't venture into personal raps as much, because the general public (and rap fans) don't like them as much as his hustler raps.
Lost One, Where Have You Been, This Can't be Life, December 4th, You Must Love Me, Anything, Song Cry, etc. are some of my personal favorite tracks of his though.
You never had a point though, other than "Jay-Z fell off".
And you and everyone else here still haven't been able to articulate what exactly Jay is stealing from Ye.
Ratking is dope so far, gotta work soon though. I listened to one Mac Demarco track and that shit was really boring, so I didn't bother. I liked that new Swans track though. Oh damn, didn't know SBTRKT had a new EP.
Sorry, this isn't all hip-hop, but I've missed some things I need to talk about.
Sorry, this isn't all hip-hop, but I've missed some things I need to talk about.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I never said Jay is "stealing" from Kanye, although you could argue Jay's sudden fashion interest during the BP3 days was blatant, as was the Coldplay stuff.
My argument is that Jay's popularity today is directly tied to Kanye, although certainly you can also tie it to his marriage to Beyonce as well as Empire State of Mind (his first hit in years). Creatively he is bankrupt, and has done well using Kanye to leverage further success (MCHG comes to mind, which didn't feature Kanye).
I ask again, what good music has Hov made this decade? I'll give you American Gangster even though I don't like it. That's a one hot album every ten year average.
My argument is that Jay's popularity today is directly tied to Kanye, although certainly you can also tie it to his marriage to Beyonce as well as Empire State of Mind (his first hit in years). Creatively he is bankrupt, and has done well using Kanye to leverage further success (MCHG comes to mind, which didn't feature Kanye).
I ask again, what good music has Hov made this decade? I'll give you American Gangster even though I don't like it. That's a one hot album every ten year average.
How long do I have to keep this stupid avatar for?
Actually no you couldn't, Jay has been rapping about fashion and various other luxury products since the Volume days. If you care to remember, a large amount of his fortune is associated with it (Rocawear). I would agree with you that he takes style tips from Kanye, especially when they perform together.
So.... They are associated with each other? As I said look at the album sales, and what becomes clear is that Kanye's music is the one that seems to benefit in terms of relevance. His collab project with Jay did better than his most recent LP, whereas Jay exceeded his former numbers (both WTT and MCHG). One of Kanye's big iconic singles from MBTDF featured Jay as well. I do agree that Jay benefits from being musical partners with Kanye, but Kanye benefits just as much or more. MCHG has nothing to do with Kanye. Beyonce has nothing to do with this argument. This argument was never about quality of music, which I agree Jay has declined on. I still think he makes dope singles and the occasional great feature.
Your viewpoint is based on feelings, not facts.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
We should ban any kanye talk from the next OT.
Also jay>ye
Also jay>ye
agreed. on both.
Discotheque
Banned
Fuck that. I'd prefer banning TDE talk instead
Right now? You're crazy
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I was joking..
As for jay>ye yeah I mean overall.
Ye's first two haven't aged very well. I gave mbdtf a full listen only a week or two ago and so many songs are skips.
I listen to jays music more than I listen to kanyes.
For the record I like kanye, he makes great music. Outside of music he's a delusional cunt.
As for jay>ye yeah I mean overall.
Ye's first two haven't aged very well. I gave mbdtf a full listen only a week or two ago and so many songs are skips.
I listen to jays music more than I listen to kanyes.
For the record I like kanye, he makes great music. Outside of music he's a delusional cunt.
Net_Wrecker
Member
This Ratking album is pretty good. Production's on point and song structure feels fresh all the way through. I like how it jumps from "modern jazz-hop" to "alternate timeline where Dipset sound led the new wave NYC artists" with consistently strong drums and vocals on top of vocals with reggae thrown into the blender. Good stuff.
Not impressed. Even the "okay" Ab-Soul verses people have been talking about are forgettable and thus bad in my eyes. Dude is too far gone, and I don't think he has it in him to recover. His career is over in my eyes.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Couldn't agree more. Well said
Its whatever. Not as bad as Danny's feature though, he kinda ruins High a little.
A Born and bred Ye Stan would spew such hyperbole.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
This new DZA tho
man if he starts to do his thing Jet life could be a tough squad to deny mainstream exposure. I think his problem was he got lazy and started trying to be a mini curren$y (except for that iron sheik jabroni builshit)
Spitta, LE$, and Dza
10/10 use of fluff to replace an argument.
Dude is publicly endorsing terrorists, having breakdowns and lighting flares under bridges with his camp, seems to be having suicidal thoughts after losing close family members, and the nosedive in the quality of his output has been beyond dramatic. I mean, obviously it's not impossible for him to get his shit together, but year for all intents and purposes, his career isn't looking much more prosperous than "dead."
PhoenixDark
Banned
Me and Enzo on the same page today.
Soul sounds lazy on so many recent records. The verse was just forgettable, especially compared to Gibbs'. I really think his career is going to nose dive; he doesn't seem energized on anything lately, from Bronson's mixtape to this.
Soul sounds lazy on so many recent records. The verse was just forgettable, especially compared to Gibbs'. I really think his career is going to nose dive; he doesn't seem energized on anything lately, from Bronson's mixtape to this.
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