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[wanderingprostheyltite]

Well jesus tap dancing christ this is a helluva thing to wake up to. Just got my evga 970 SC last month, now I'm wondering how much of a problem this is going to be for the future, especially for VR games once the consumer version of the Rift drops. Was really hoping to use this card for that, now I'm not so sure. Nvidia needs to address this ASAP.

 

[iN1njaCPFC]

... especially for VR games once the consumer version of the Rift drops. Was really hoping to use this card for that, now I'm not so sure. Nvidia needs to address this ASAP.

Very much this!

 

[jony_m]

Well jesus tap dancing christ this is a helluva thing to wake up to. Just got my evga 970 SC last month, now I'm wondering how much of a problem this is going to be for the future, especially for VR games once the consumer version of the Rift drops. Was really hoping to use this card for that, now I'm not so sure. Nvidia needs to address this ASAP.

Yup, just got the EVGA GTX970 SC delivered and installed yesterday with hopes to SLI in the future..

I could return it but I guess I will wait to see what Nvidia says.

Also these have Samsung memory btw (according to Nvidia Inspector), so that is a positive.

 

[Korezo]

So this was probably why Shadow of Modor stuttered like crazy for me.

 

[bj00rn_]

Stuttering/hitching/freezing due to premature lack of VRAM; that's exactly the issue I'm having with SLI 970s when I push the Vram usage up into and past the 3.5 GBs area (970s try to avoid going above) despite retaining under 99% GPU load. Space Engine and Skyrim both clearly exhibit the issue.

If this is directly related, then it's an example of an issue potentially being serious enough for some kind of action besides pointing to a disclaimer, I agree.

I think it's a bit too early to talk about absolutes though. I've seen worse things floating on the surface ending up being absolutely nothing. I can't see how this "investigation" can progress much further without some tangible and meaningful Nvidia input. They can't choose to ignore it, so it will come one way or anther. I just hope it's not serious enough to sink them, they do make good GPUs in general..

 

[LilJoka]

So this was probably why Shadow of Modor stuttered like crazy for me.

Yeah I'm going to test this game tonight.

 

[CSJ]

For me the real problem are games that come out a year or two from now that will require larger VRAM, then the problem will be glaring.

Ding ding ding.
Too many defenders saying "Most games won't even use that much".

That's not the point right? I buy high end gear to hopefully last as long as my previous PC (6-7 years with only 1 gpu upgrade due to it actually dying) so I don't want to have to upgrade because that last few hundred MB of memory is fucking me over.

I also wasn't stupid enough to spend 50% more for 15% more performance

 

[Naked Snake]

I also wasn't stupid enough to spend 50% more for 15% more performance

How do you feel now that it looks like there's a lot more to it than 15% of performance difference?

 

[djplaeskool]

I guess its technically a 4gb 208bit card but that bus is what causes the massive drop in bandwidth over 3gb.

Yeah.
I'm looking at these Nai benchmark results in the OC forum thread and good lord, does the card take a hit.

 

[CSJ]

How do you feel now that it looks like there's a lot more to it than 15% of performance difference?

Optimistic for something to be fixed, if not - yeah I'll kick up a stink and try my best to get what I paid for.

 

[iN1njaCPFC]

So how did the press releases miss all this? They've been out for a good few months now.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Thus is certainly relevant to me due to getting a 1440p/120hz Catleap. I sure hope nvidia thinks of the loyal customers and does the right thing.

 

[Iorv3th]

Hopefully they have to replace these. I was just looking at upgrading to one of these too.

I had problems with Nvidia though in my laptop around 2007.Thing went out 3 times and 3rd time it was out of warranty, then a year later there was a class action lawsuit against nvidia and they were forced to replace and fix it.

 

[Dictator93]

I guess its technically a 4gb 208bit card but that bus is what causes the massive drop in bandwidth over 3gb.

Why would a any card see a massive drop in bandwidth after a certain point within its available VRAm? That seems to defy everything I know about GPUs.

Shouldnt it just have a lower throughput? Not some fall of point where all goes to shit.

 

[Honey Bunny]

Hopefully they have to replace these. I was just looking at upgrading to one of these too.

I had problems with Nvidia though in my laptop around 2007.Thing went out 3 times and 3rd time it was out of warranty, then a year later there was a class action lawsuit against nvidia and they were forced to replace and fix it.

I had this with an Nvidia chip in my laptop too Though the difference was they actually had to reimburse you for it, 2-300 quid I think. There was a support forum with steps on how you could get Nvidia to pay out - of course they fought you on every step and if you didn't have this guide from the forum to help with the carefully worded legalese emails you had to send, their support would keep BSing you and you'd get nothing.

Make no mistake, NV will do everything in their power to not be held liable for this, like any company would.

 

[Xdrive05]

Why would a any card see a massive drop in bandwidth after a certain point within its available VRAm? That seems to defy everything I know about GPUs.

Shouldnt it just have a lower throughput? Not some fall of point where all goes to shit.

Check out the 660 and 660ti.

Maxwell is different, but that's another example. Smarter people than me will be able to explain the math.

 

[Kayant]

I have bought over £10,000 worth of parts over the years so they better sort it out lol.

But I had to Rma a water pump and I was literally tested for user error by their "water cooling expert"... They didn't acknowledge my purchase history or that I was an intel engineering employee either.

That's the only time I dealt with them for an RMA. And obviously I expect a small battle. I got mine around December too I think.

Let's wait for nvidia to play their cards.

that's a lot of stuff... Sounds like we are in for a fight . Yh let's hope nvidia says something seems like they really hoping for it to blow by.

 

[pestul]

How in the bloody heck did this go for months without anyone noticing??.. that part just blows my mind.

 

[ussjtrunks]

How in the bloody heck did this go for months without anyone noticing??.. that part just blows my mind.

The only game i have tried that i can push vram at 1080p enough to cause stutter is mordor with ultra textures honestly i thought it was just the game. In unity it stops at 3.5gb ram but if i set it to 8x msaa and back it holds its 4gb vram usage and performs better so it could be certain games too.

I still think this could possibly be driver related as it wasn't found till recently

 

[Naked Snake]

How in the bloody heck did this go for months without anyone noticing??.. that part just blows my mind.

Maybe because the cards seem to try their best to avoid using the last chunk of DRAM with current/past games. You have to use custom ultra settings to make it do that.

Spoiler

Also, a lot of people who bought these cards haven't actually played much of anything on them yet (me included), because collecting games and talking about them on the internet is more fun than actually playing them

 

[pestul]

True, I just assumed there would be a hundred or so hardware nuts/reviewers out there that would never let something like this go untested. This is especially true if it had occurred with previous generations of Nvidia cards.

 

[Xdrive05]

True, I just assumed there would be a hundred or so hardware nuts/reviewers out there that would never let something like this go untested. This is especially true if it had occurred with previous generations of Nvidia cards.

Definitely. Almost feels like money hats. Conspiratorial, I know, but whatevs.

Gets back to the product reviews as "journalism or marketing" thing.

 

[Zane]

Anyone who thinks they're going to do a recall is delusional.

 

[pestul]

Well this is an encouraging result..

http://www.overclock.net/t/1535502/gtx-970s-can-only-use-3-5gb-of-4gb-vram-issue/300#post_23448215

I don't think it has anything to do with the number of SMM's being cut as my 980M (which is cut down further to 12 SMM's vs 970's 13 SMM's) doesn't appear to be impacted by this nasty bug.

I hope this is resolved for you guys and gals ASAP. I hope it is a software issue only.

GTX 980M 4GB, stock clocks and 344.75 driver:

Maybe it isn't hardware afterall.

 

[iN1njaCPFC]

I'm fairly certain that it'll be resolved with a driver update... Right?.. Guys?

 

[Zane]

How in the bloody heck did this go for months without anyone noticing??.. that part just blows my mind.

Because the card still eats and spits out anything you can throw at it besides unoptimized pieces of shit like AC Unity, which 2 980s in SLI can't even handle at 1080p max settings? You're acting like this card has secretly been a lemon this whole time and it should have been this super obvious thing to discover. It's still a fantastic card.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Because the card still eats and spits out anything you can throw at it besides unoptimized pieces of shit like AC Unity, which 2 980s in SLI can't even handle at 1080p max settings?

actually ac: unity is one of the few games that exceed 3.5 GB, and perf is not impacted on 970s. It maintains a stable 31fps.

 

[pestul]

Because the card still eats and spits out anything you can throw at it besides unoptimized pieces of shit like AC Unity, which 2 980s in SLI can't even handle at 1080p max settings?

Yeah, but testing the VRAM to its fullest in a review seems like a basic thing to me, especially with 4k being a reality.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

Is this something that can be fixed with a driver update or a fundamental flaw with the card?

 

[Zane]

Yeah, but testing the VRAM to its fullest in a review seems like a basic thing to me, especially with 4k being a reality.

How does one "test the VRAM to the fullest" other than testing the card on the most demanding games and applications possible, which all these reviews did? Those benchmarks from 4 months ago showing the 970 destroying pretty much everything even at 1440p? They're not suddenly fake because of this issue.

 

[Dictator93]

Is this something that can be fixed with a driver update or a fundamental flaw with the card?

We will find that out in due time. I have a feeling though that it is a driver problem. If hardware... oh boy is Nvidia in trouble.

 

[Turin Turambar]

From what I understand, it isn't that the memory bandwidth fall to hell when a game or app is using 4gb of vram. Even in that case, it's still only a small part of the vram (the last 400 mb) the ones who are slower than they should be. I suppose that's why it has been hard to detect the problem.

 

[pestul]

How does one "test the VRAM to the fullest" other than testing the card on the most demanding games and applications possible, which all these reviews did? Those benchmarks from 4 months ago showing the 970 destroying pretty much everything even at 1440p? They're not suddenly fake because of this issue.

I see where you're coming from. The benches are real, I'm just surprised no one tried to create 3.5-4GB usage scenarios to really push it to limit with many games. There are certainly scenarios with games at the time where one could do that. It's not the priority for most reviews, I'm just surprised it didn't surface even by accident in this long..

I'm leaning more towards it being a bug issue and that it isn't present in every scenario.

 

[Zane]

From SA

The issue should only manifest when moving >3.5GB of data at a time. It's not about occupying the memory, but moving it around all at once. Game engines won't be doing that though - it's an issue that'll only appear on synthetic tests.

I see where you're coming from. The benches are real, I'm just surprised no one tried to create 3.5-4GB usage scenarios to really push it to limit with many games. There are certainly scenarios with games at the time where one could do that. It's not the priority for most reviews, I'm just surprised it didn't surface even by accident in this long..

I'm leaning more towards it being a bug issue and that it isn't present in every scenario.

Yeah my understanding is this doesn't affect common usage scenarios, which include games and... well, games, really.

 

[The Llama]

From SA

Then what about the real world scenarios where people have seen problems? It's not like this problem was discovered via a synthetic benchmark...

 

[Serandur]

actually ac: unity is one of the few games that exceed 3.5 GB, and perf is not impacted on 970s. It maintains a stable 31fps.

The issue isn't FPS with VRAM shortages outside of the most severe ones where a card doesn't have close to enough to flawlessly render a scene. It's frametimes and transitional stuttering that people need to keep an eye out for, not FPS. Furthermore, 31 FPS is a pretty low bar to set. With such a low performance bar, do you even notice or care about frametime spikes?

 

[iN1njaCPFC]

From SA

SA?

 

[Naked Snake]

SA?

Something Awful I think, it's another forum.

 

[Kezen]

It could be Charlie's Semi-Accurate as well.

 

[mugurumakensei]

The issue isn't FPS with VRAM shortages outside of the most severe ones where a card doesn't have close to enough to flawlessly render a scene. It's frametimes and transitional stuttering that people need to keep an eye out for, not FPS. Furthermore, 31 FPS is a pretty low bar to set. With such a low performance bar, do you even notice or care about frametime spikes?

My frametimes are consistent.

 

[Xdrive05]

From SA





Yeah my understanding is this doesn't affect common usage scenarios, which include games and... well, games, really.

But doesn't this very test which shows the issue move the data in sequential chunks and not all at once? And it is final chunks which move like crap.

 

[Zane]

The issue isn't FPS with VRAM shortages outside of the most severe ones where a card doesn't have close to enough to flawlessly render a scene. It's frametimes and transitional stuttering that people need to keep an eye out for, not FPS. Furthermore, 31 FPS is a pretty low bar to set. With such a low performance bar, do you even notice or care about frametime spikes?

There are many real-world benchmarks out there showing the 970 has one of the lowest frametimes of any modern card out there.

 

[dgrdsv]

This benchmark is fishy as hell.

We need real world applications to manifest any kind of unexpected performance on 970 compared to 980 - or any other NVIDIA card with 4 GB VRAM.

Also this may be due to crossbar not being fully loaded on data transfer operations because several SMs on 970 are disabled.

There is a crap load of possible reasons for this and it all boils down to real world apps/games - if all of them are running on 970 within the expected margin from 980 then there is no problem.

Edit: stuttering in games which are loading all 4GBs is expected and is likely to be caused by PCI-E bus data swapping to main RAM. The only way to prove that this is an issue is to get this stuttering on 970 while 980 will work smoothly.

 

[The Llama]

There are many real-world benchmarks out there showing the 970 has the lowest frametimes of any modern card out there.

That doesn't even make sense, seeing as the 980 is objectively a faster card.

 

[Serandur]

My frametimes are consistent.

What settings, exactly? I'll load up my copy of AC Unity with them.

 

[Zane]

That doesn't even make sense, seeing as the 980 is objectively a faster card.

typo. I meant to say "one of the lowest frametimes out of any modern card out there"

 

[mugurumakensei]

That doesn't even make sense, seeing as the 980 is objectively a faster card.

the 980m which is objectively slower than a 970 performs better in this synthetic test.

 

[Bubba77]

Hrm. My second GTX 970 ASUS Strix actually just shipped from Amazon. Hopefully its a driver thing. I have been absolutely satisfied with my single gtx970 so far and am looking forward to the second arriving on Monday.

 

[mugurumakensei]

What settings, exactly? I'll load up my copy of AC Unity with them.

all max with 8XMSAA at 1080P along with framerate capped to 31fps via nvidia inspector and half refresh rate vsync set.

 

[Dictator93]

Yeah my understanding is this doesn't affect common usage scenarios, which include games and... well, games, really.

This issue manifests on my brothers rig when attempting to play Ryse @ 4k. He has the GPU oomph but it stutters like crazy.