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[Xando]

Germany's Interior Ministry on Friday banned and ordered raids on a portal popular with leftist readers and activists. Possibly the last posts from linksunten.indymedia.org - commemorations of a 1992 far-right mob attack on apartments where foreigners lived in Rostock-Lichtenberg and reports of racist graffiti on a memorial to a young woman killed by neo-Nazis in the United States - went live the previous night.
The site was closed for "sowing hate against different opinions and representatives of the country," said Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière, adding that the operation of the site was now "a criminal offence."
He said authorities were treating linksunten.indymedia.org as an "association" rather than a news outlet, which would help officials get around constitutional protections on freedom of expression. De Maizière said at least two people constituted an association - the site has up to seven administrators - and the ban would not affect the international award-winning Indymedia network.
"We are currently searching multiple facilities," said Baden-Württemberg state Interior Minister Thomas Strobl, a member of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, which is also de Maizière's party. Though the authorities planned to confiscate computers and other goods, arrests were not in the immediate offing, he said. Knives and clubs were apparently found at some of the properties.
The ban comes seven weeks after demonstrations around the G20 meeting in Hamburg, during which TV viewers were treated to images of what appeared to be pitched battles between police and protesters. Though fact-checks and follow-up reports debunked much of the more sensational coverage, and only one person has been charged with anything so far, Germany's main political parties promised a crackdown on dangerous dissenters.

News of the ban triggered a heated debate on social media. While conservative political parties welcomed the ban, Alice Weidel, candidate for the nationalist right-wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, suggested on Twitter it had been motivated by the upcoming German election.
"Indymedia ban [is] indeed a result of the 2017 election campaign, but [is] a correct and long-overdue decision," Weidel's tweet said, plus the party's election slogan "trau dich Deutschland," which loosely translates as a call to Germans to "have courage."
Other Twitter users pointed out that the site was often used as a source by domestic intelligence agencies to track left-wing extremism - a point also made by the association of German criminal police officers (BDK), whose Hamburg chief Jan Reinecke said the platform "had even been important for police tactics, as a way to observe the leftist scene, their plans and claims of responsibility. That will be lacking for police officers in future."
Reinecke told the Hamburger Abendblatt that "determined action against left-wing extremists" was important, but that the Interior Ministry's measure was "more election campaign symbolism than a meaningful action against leftist radicals."

Justifying the ban, de Maizière said that the measures were a "consistent" action against "left-wing extremist hate speech," before adding, "The call for violence against police officers and their description as 'pigs' and 'murderers' is supposed to legitimize violence against policemen. It is the expression of an attitude that tramples on human dignity."

Full article here:
http://www.dw.com/en/interior-ministry-shuts-down-raids-left-wing-german-indymedia-site/a-40232965

 

[Stranya]

The comma in the thread title confused me. Maybe replace with "and"? Don't mean to be pedantic!

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

 

[radios shipping overview]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

👀

 

[Zaru]

So... they just found a loophole to close down pretty much anything they want. Just call it an association and you're done.

 

[Xando]

So... they just found a loophole to close down pretty much anything they want. Just call it an association and you're done.

Not really. Still has to stand in court

 

[sankt-Antonio]

This is election dick waving. Had no problem with Pegida bullshit but the leftist are the problem. :/

On the other hand, I rather have Angela cater to the right leaning fucks and stop giving in to their demands after election then to have a right wing party giving any legitimate power.

Like Strauss said back then "there should not be a party to the right of the CDU"

 

[Dopus]

Pathetic.

 

[Trojita]

And this is why freedom of speech is good. Making operating a website a criminal offense is ridiculous.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

Yep.

 

[Dehnus]

Isn't this the interior minister of the state and not the country? Still fuck you for your rightwing dickery Germany!

 

[SheSaidNo]

Justifying the ban, de Maizière said that the measures were a "consistent" action against "left-wing extremist hate speech," before adding, "The call for violence against police officers and their description as 'pigs' and 'murderers' is supposed to legitimize violence against policemen. It is the expression of an attitude that tramples on human dignity

Wow, it sounds exactly like what republicans would say to ban stuff like BLM. Good thing we have protections for stuff like this in the US

 

[Hektor]

And this is why freedom of speech is good. Making operating a website a criminal offense is ridiculous.

?

Wether this websites in particular was illegal or questionable, i cannot judge as i haven't visited it, but websites should behold to the law like anything else.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

And this is why freedom of speech is good. Making operating a website a criminal offense is ridiculous.

??????????

Wow, it sounds exactly like what republicans would say to ban stuff like BLM. Good thing we have protections for stuff like this in the US

Except German police isn't known for murdering people.
You can't compare the situation 1:1

 

[Shadowhelper]

This is pathetic. Seems like it was motivated by the coming elections.

Ridiculous to equate anarchists to rightwing extremists. Yeah, they are disorderly, but idiotic comparison, imo.

Wow, it sounds exactly like what republicans would say to ban stuff like BLM. Good thing we have protections for stuff like this in the US

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

 

[Xando]

Wow, it sounds exactly like what republicans would say to ban stuff like BLM. Good thing we have protections for stuff like this in the US

Except they were posting letter of claims and instructions on how to build weapons on that website.

This is pathetic. Seems like it was motivated by the coming elections.

Ridiculous to equate anarchists to rightwing extremists. Yeah, they are disorderly, but idiotic comparison, imo.

You mean the anarchists that demolished a whole districts during G20? Or the Anarchists destroying train tracks? Or the ones burning down civilian vehicles?

They're the same scum as nazis and islamists

 

[Muffin1611]

And this is why freedom of speech is good. Making operating a website a criminal offense is ridiculous.

This is not satire, is it

This line of thought doesn't even work in the US

 

[Hagi]

Except they were posting letter of claims and instructions on how to build weapons on that website.


You mean the anarchists that demolished a whole districts during G20? Or the Anarchists destroying train tracks?

They're the same scum as nazis and islamists

Yeah but freedom of speech though.

 

[Kinyou]

This is pathetic. Seems like it was motivated by the coming elections.

Ridiculous to equate anarchists to rightwing extremists. Yeah, they are disorderly, but idiotic comparison, imo.

The events in Hamburg pretty much forced a reaction. Politicians don't want to be seen as doing nothing so the try something more drastic

 

[Fritz]

Woah, that is tricky. The administrators should certainly file a complaint and take it to the courts.

 

[psyfi]

Whoa this is really fucked up

 

[Onlinehero]

What is left-wing extremism in Germany? Is there a revolutionary communist vein in there somewhere or is it just anarchists like the rest of Europe?

 

[Trojita]

?

Wether this websites in particular was illegal or questionable, i cannot judge as i haven't visited it, but websites should behold to the law like anything else.

??????????


Except German police isn't known for murdering people.
You can't compare the situation 1:1

This is not satire, is it

This line of thought doesn't even work in the US

You guys are seriously defending this?

 

[Albino_Yeti]

Except they were posting letter of claims and instructions on how to build weapons on that website.


You mean the anarchists that demolished a whole districts during G20? Or the Anarchists destroying train tracks? Or the ones burning down civilian vehicles?

They're the same scum as nazis and islamists

Yea they get no sympathy from me. All they did was destroy private property. How does torching some old ladies car help any political message?

 

[psychowave]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

Extreme right: run a car into a crowd of protesters, killing a woman
Extreme left: burn some cars (allegedly) and fight nazis

Yeah they look pretty samey to me.

 

[Trojita]

Except they were posting letter of claims and instructions on how to build weapons on that website.

Why wasn't this used as the justification for removal? They cite "hate speech" against cops as one of the reasons.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

I like my extremism excellent.

 

[diaspora]

Extreme right: run a car into a crowd of protesters, killing a woman
Extreme left: burn some cars (allegedly) and fight nazis

Yeah they look pretty samey to me.

Extreme left in the US isn't the same thing as extreme left in Europe.

 

[Shiggy]

Good decision if it's true what they say. That they found weapons such as the banned butterfly knifes with the owners is already telling enough. Though it looks like they have big trouble taking down the site.

This is pathetic. Seems like it was motivated by the coming elections.

Ridiculous to equate anarchists to rightwing extremists. Yeah, they are disorderly, but idiotic comparison, imo.

Germany has more cases of leftwing motivated violent crimes and criminal damage than rightwing motivated violent crimes and criminal damage. Why only focus on right-wing extremism?

Why wasn't this used as the justification for removal? They cite "hate speech" against cops as one of the reasons.

It's cited as their justification.

 

[MisterShine]

Well after reading the article... you done fucked up Germany. Apparently, even you guys dont know what "Free speech /=/ Hate speech" means.

 

[cyba89]

And this is why freedom of speech is good. Making operating a website a criminal offense is ridiculous.

Oh, I can think of a few cases were operating a website is/should be a criminal offense.

Germany has more cases of leftwing motivated violent crimes and criminal damage than rightwing motivated violent crimes and criminal damage. Why only focus on right-wing extremism?

That's not true.
http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2017-04/polizeiliche-kriminalstatistik-bundesinnenministerium-gewaltkriminalitaet-wohnungseinbrueche-jugendkriminalitaet

23.500 right-wing vs 9.400 left-wing

 

[Hektor]

You guys are seriously defending this?

I'm defending the fact that websites should be held accountable for potentially illegal content, which you disagreed with, yes.

To repeat myself, i'm not even defending this case specifically as i never visited the website in question.

Well after reading the article... you done fucked up Germany. Apparently, even you guys dont know what "Free speech /=/ Hate speech" means.

Our hatespeech laws are actually very clearly definied and expressively includes calls to violence, which this website allegedly contained.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Extreme left in the US isn't the same thing as extreme left in Europe.

Feel free to talk a little more about what you dislike about the "extreme left" in Europe.

 

[YoungFa]

Feel free to talk a little more about what you dislike about the "extreme left" in Europe.

They pretty much destroy private property of random citizens just for fun.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Right wing government does right wing things, who is surprised. Bunch of cunts.

 

[MisterShine]

...
Our hatespeech laws are actually very clearly definied and expressively includes calls to violence, which this website allegedly contained.

Calling them pigs and murderers supposedly makes violence against them easier... that's the only claim to a "call of action" in the article. That's all you need huh?

 

[Hektor]

Calling them pigs and murderers supposedly makes violence against them easier... that's the only claim to a "call of action" in the article. That's all you need huh?

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

"The call for violence against police officers and their description as 'pigs' and 'murderers' is supposed to legitimize violence against policemen. It is the expression of an attitude that tramples on human dignity."

 

[Trojita]

Oh, I can think of a few cases were operating a website is/should be a criminal offense.



That's not true.
http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2017-04/polizeiliche-kriminalstatistik-bundesinnenministerium-gewaltkriminalitaet-wohnungseinbrueche-jugendkriminalitaet

23.500 right-wing vs 9.400 left-wing

Because those websites deal in illegal things. What they were detailing in the article did not sound illegal.

 

[Fritz]

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

"The call for violence against police officers and their description as 'pigs' and 'murderers' is supposed to legitimize violence against policemen. It is the expression of an attitude that tramples on human dignity."

Also FAZ stated that they were planning and scheduling criminal offences on there ("Absprache zur Gewalt"). Sounds like shutting it down was legitimate

 

[cyba89]

Because those websites deal in illegal things. What they were detailing in the article did not sound illegal.

I don't know about the exact content of the website in this case but you first said operating a website should never be a criminal offense, because "freedom of spreech". I just commented on that.

 

[MisterShine]

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Apologies, I misunderstood the sentence. I thought they meant the dehumanizing terms were the call to violence, not in addition to them.

 

[Wrestlemania]

They pretty much destroy private property of random citizens just for fun.

This sometimes happens, sure. Instances of this happening are relatively infrequent though, and they are heavily reported on as a way to rally people against those who are willing to fight far right groups.

 

[Shiggy]

That's not true.
http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2017-04/polizeiliche-kriminalstatistik-bundesinnenministerium-gewaltkriminalitaet-wohnungseinbrueche-jugendkriminalitaet

23.500 right-wing vs 9.400 left-wing

That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:

 

[Kinyou]

This sometimes happens, sure. Instances of this happening are relatively infrequent though, and they are heavily reported on as a way to rally people against those who are willing to fight far right groups.

You mean it's a media conspiracy?

 

[Deleted member 98878]

One of the things I really didn't like about the site was that they revealed names and pictures, sometimes even home address and/or place of work, of alleged Nazis and AfD-supporters/party members. I hate those guys but even they have a right of privacy.

I'm not sure if that's enough to shut down the whole website, they should have started with those specific sections. Not happy with De Maizière's statement though. But I'm also not happy with De Maizière as Minister of the Interior.

 

[Hektor]

Apologies, I misunderstood the sentence. I thought they meant the dehumanizing terms were the call to violence, not in addition to them.

Allright, in that case i'll apologize for being rude.

 

[Wrestlemania]

You mean it's a media conspiracy?

I don't think it's much of a conspiracy. Right wing outlets are obviously going to talk extensively about things like the G20 riots as a way to de-legitimise any left-leaning groups - we had plenty of posters here using photos from the G20 as a way to rail on Antifa recently, even though the riots were far broader than something that could just be pinned on anti-fascists, and also an example of something which happens incredibly infrequently.

 

[SilentRob]

De Maziere and his work as a Minister sucks. He's a dangerous populist and he would be right at home in the Trump administration.

This action however is well reasoned and really only was a matter of time.

 

[hobblygobbly]

I'm not familiar with the site but it seems like there may be illegal activity on it because we have plenty of far-left outlets both printed and radio and also general left ones for communism and socialism for years and they're fine, some that are only in circulation within some cities.

We've still got things like Neues Deutschland and Junge Welt, Junge Welt is extremist but it doesn't disseminate illegal activity (last I checked any way). There are a whole bunch of smaller ones that only have circulation in a few thousands as well.

People have short term memory and forget about RZ and RAF, if there are cells concerning illegal activity and such a site is facilitating it then the law will need to step in.

 

[Trojita]

I don't know about the exact content of the website in this case but you first said operating a website should never be a criminal offense, because "freedom of spreech". I just commented on that.

I should be more specific in that I specifically was referring to this line

The site was closed for "sowing hate against different opinions and representatives of the country," said Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière, adding that the operation of the site was now "a criminal offence."

Making it a criminal offense to operate a website, this website, seemed ridiculous based on the facts. If you are doing actual illegal things like promoting and instructing terrorism or possessing and distributing illegal content, then yeah freedom of speech doesn't help you. The whole reason they had to twist and pull the law to treat this as an association is because their actual laws probably wouldn't allow this.