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[sjay1994]

I didn't see it as propaganda at all. If anything, I saw that trailers narration as a really heavy handed way of explaining the gameplay and mechanics.

That line to me was "hey, you can play the game non-lethal"

 

[ironcreed]

OP calling it "propaganda" is just ridiculous. It implies that Ubisoft is trying to influence the minds of people to for some agenda, when it's just a video game that's not suposed to be taken seriously story-wise, the same way Transformers and Paul Blart: Mall Cop isn't supposed to be taken seriously. But again, even if the story was supposed to be taken seriously, why should what the message matter?



So if I don't take everything super seriously all the time it'll brainwash me into believing something?

Agreed. I fucking hate the idea of war in general, but love movies and games that depict it. It's exciting and entertaining and when I am done I go about my day and still don't support war. That's it.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Calling it propaganda would imply some willful agenda pushing, which I don't think is what's happening at all.

What is happening is that Ubisoft is continuing to profit off of Tom Clancy's jingoistic themes that people seem to eat up.

 

[NullPointer]

I didn't see it as propaganda at all. If anything, I saw that trailers narration as a really heavy handed way of explaining the gameplay and mechanics.

That line to me was "hey, you can play the game non-lethal"

This was my read too.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

But this is all the more reason to actually take a look at the games you are playing, and that the average person is playing. Because media has an affect on you. All media, whether you're there for a story or messages or not, has an affect on you. This is literally the entire basis for all of advertising and, yes, propaganda. Something as simple as a poster or a slogan becomes a reference point for which you both consciously and subconsciously interpret your life.

Actual gangsters started dressing in suits and enforcing honor codes after the success of The Godfather. The entire cultural concept of a designated driver was established via a cooperation between Harvard and Hollywood to begin representing it in media. You can either let things affect you and influence you without ever thinking about it, for better and for worse, or you can take a closer look at the constant conditions that contextualize your life. This includes everything you qualify as "entertainment."

If you ignore a piece of media's potential influence and shut your brain off, it is all the more likely you will not be aware of the kind of affects it is having on you.

Yeah, and after watching Bond movies, I get the feeling that I want to buy clothes and dress like the guy. I admit, that happens.

But I can still play and enjoy a game like Battlefield and Call of Duty and still come away thinking war isn't great. Like they may hype up war and whatever but I can still be entertained in MP and a campaign but in a real life oppose drone strikes and invading countries (which I do). I mean I don't come out of playing Be a GM in NHL 16 and then start thinking that I can actually properly run an NHL team.

I'd like to think that I can distinguish the difference between whats real and what isn't.

 

[Rav3n90]

I found that part of the trailer quite unsettling, especially considerig that the preferred target are young people, in an age when everything has a huge influence on how they perceive the world and on their moral compass.
It's also worth mentioning that this phrase goes largely unchallenged during the trailer, it's almost taken as given that in fighting the crime one can rely only on its own judgement and be judge, jury and executioner

 

[Finale Fireworker]

OP calling it "propaganda" is just ridiculous. It implies that Ubisoft is trying to influence the minds of people to for some agenda, when it's just a video game that's not suposed to be taken seriously story-wise, the same way Transformers and Paul Blart: Mall Cop isn't supposed to be taken seriously. But again, even if the story was supposed to be taken seriously, why should what the message matter?

Their word choice could have been better, sure, but the fact the OP was making is that the trailer is reminiscent of military recruitment videos, which means they reinforce the same messages, whether one "means to" or not. And you should still occasionally look critically at stupid stuff like Transformers and Paul Blart because even bad media has intrinsic messaging.

Unless you think old Bugs Bunny cartoons with black-faced imbeciles doesn't carry any sort of messaging because it's just a cartoon meant for fun. Or homophobic song lyrics aren't actually worth condemning because it's just a pop song.

All media is on an equal playing field when it comes to possible messaging and subsequent analysis. This is the nature of media. You cannot divorce media from possible messaging, no matter how inane that media may be.

So if I don't take everything super seriously all the time it'll brainwash me into believing something?

That's a really flippant and reductive way to respond. I'm saying there is value in analysis and reflection of the media we consume. I'm not telling you what to do.

I'd like to think that I can distinguish the difference between whats real and what isn't.

And you probably can! People consume media at different intensities. Somebody who cheers their favorite hockey players in a mid-game fist fight on the ice isn't necessarily going to go home and beat the shit out of their neighbor for playing music too loud.

But somebody who views their favorite athlete as a hero and a role model, who thinks the fights are the best part of hockey, and lives and breathes by the sport might be more inclined to take a swing at somebody for getting in his way than the ordinary viewer. This person was my father, who has rage issues to this day, because years of playing street hockey cut short by a leg injury has made him anxious and easily irritated. And when somebody gets in his way, he goes right back to the rink and wants to fight it out, because the hockey players he grew up watching were inspiring gladiators who "knew when to stop taking shit."

I think, whenever these discussions come up, it's easy to immediately relate it to yourself. And if YOU can tell that it's just fantasy, it must not be a problem. But it's really a collective thing. You have to take a look at media and how it relates to the potential AUDIENCE, not just you.

Just because I knew that the stuff I saw in porn when I was 13 wasn't how I should eventually have sex doesn't mean a friend of mine didn't try to slap the first girl he slept with because he thought she would like it. Do you know what I mean?

 

[MHWilliams]

OP calling it "propaganda" is just ridiculous. It implies that Ubisoft is trying to influence the minds of people to for some agenda, when it's just a video game that's not suposed to be taken seriously story-wise, the same way Transformers and Paul Blart: Mall Cop isn't supposed to be taken seriously. But again, even if the story was supposed to be taken seriously, why should what the message matter?

Propaganda is in communication aimed at promoting certain viewpoints or perceptions.

Transformers, to use your own example, is very much pro-military. Michael Bay loves it and the US military helps him out with real soldiers and equipment because of it. They don't do that out of the goodness of their hearts. As I said before, 24 features similar themes and that's been talked about before and the creators absolutely agree they're pushing a certain ideal.

Now you may not care, I certainly have no issue with that. Entertainment is entertainment. I rock with some games that put forth some rough ideas. But saying entertainment doesn't push certain ideas is a falsehood.

You can see the new Ghost Recon in the same manner. You can still enjoy it. Hell, I'll still enjoy it. (Big Ghost Recon fan.) But people are allowed to ask pertinent questions about the media they consume.

I'd like to think that I can distinguish the difference between whats real and what isn't.

Really not the point.

What is happening is that Ubisoft is continuing to profit off of Tom Clancy's jingoistic themes that people seem to eat up.

Correct. It's simply a side-effect of using Clancy.

 

[ChosenPredator]

awesome can't wait for this game

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Thought the same when I heard that line. The whole trailer was bad imo. Who is their target group with this? 14-year-olds? They tried too hard to make it sound "cool". It's sad that they can't think of anything better, and that they can't create a story which handles this subject in a more differentiated or toned down way.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Thought the same when I heard that line. The whole trailer was bad imo. Who is their target group with this? 14-year-olds? They tried too hard to make it sound "cool". It's sad that they can't think of anything better, and that they can't create a story which handles this subject in a more differentiated or toned down way.

The target audience is people that likes fun military games. And this seems right up the alley of those people (like myself). Everything they've shown so far looks extremely appealing and it's one of my most anticipated games. It looks like an exntesion of what Kojima was doing with MGSV's gameplay.

 

[psyfi]

Nothing to add, just wanna say I appreciate this thread.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The target audience is people that likes fun military games. And this seems right up the alley of those people (like myself). Everything they've shown so far looks extremely appealing and it's one of my most anticipated games. It looks like an exntesion of what Kojima was doing with MGSV's gameplay.

Uh what? We are talking about the tone of the story / world. And you are talking about MGSV? This game seems very different from MGSV in this regard, which is btw probably a good example for a "fun" military game which still has a sensible message about warfare.

 

[YoYo Switch]

If I made a thread asking if Life is Strange was left wing propaganda, would it stay open as long as this thread?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Uh what? We are talking about the tone of the story / world. And you are talking about MGSV? This game seems very different from MGSV in this regard, which is btw probably a good example for a "fun" military game which still has a sensible message about warfare.

You're asking who this appealing to and I explained who. The tone isn't botheresome to me, if anything it just makes it more appealing. Put me in a world and let me do what I want. And mechanically this is quite a bit like MGSV, which is another reason why it's appealing.

 

[Messofanego]

If I made a thread asking if Life is Strange was left wing propaganda, would it stay open as long as this thread?

Who's stopping you?

I didn't see it as propaganda at all. If anything, I saw that trailers narration as a really heavy handed way of explaining the gameplay and mechanics.

That line to me was "hey, you can play the game non-lethal"

This is hilarious to me, cause there seems to be a contradiction from blowing up shit and claiming they are ghosts who leave no trace. On some missions, you sneak and take out targets and sometimes you just wreck shit up? Are there no repercussions to going guns blazing in foreign countries as the arm of USA, like a reputation system that would roll from mission to mission ala Hitman Blood Money or Dishonored?

 

[tuxfool]

If I made a thread asking if Life is Strange was left wing propaganda, would it stay open as long as this thread?

I'd have to ask what you would postulate on this basis. Or is this just a random argument thrown out without consideration of what you're saying?

I'd certainly be curious as to your thesis in such a thread.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I'd say it's lowest common denominator entertainment for people who are weened on and perpetuated by propaganda, or it's sphere of influence, more than it is any kind of propaganda itself. This theme's ongoing preeminence in the medium is an ideological flag that's been planted since at least the mid 90's, but most games that inhabit this creative space are just trying to make a buck like anything else. Ubisoft will tell you be the soldier of the future, fight the power, experience new cultures and to just dance in the same conference. They don't care.

This trailer's not even half as brash and blatant as a lot of real people are right now. You could identify your audience for this and come up with theme + marketing here just by watching a few hours of Duck Dynasty, Donald Trump, killer cop videos and subsequent acquittals etc... and honestly, a little waxing poetic about PTSD or the horrors of war isn't being honest about what most of these games are and have always tried to be.

 

[Slackbladder]

The trailer certainly seemed to lack any self awareness and reeked of typical power fantasy gaming codswallop. I can see how that may be appealing to some. But it tends to rub me up the wrong way. Still it may yet have a narrative that's more interesting than that but the trailer didn't convey it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is hilarious to me, cause there seems to be a contradiction from blowing up shit and claiming they are ghosts who leave no trace. On some missions, you sneak and take out targets and sometimes you just wreck shit up?

No, it's up to you to decide how you tackle objectives. So far all the trailers have showcased that.

Are there no repercussions to going guns blazing in foreign countries as the arm of USA, like a reputation system that would roll from mission to mission ala Hitman Blood Money or Dishonored?

I suggest looking up info on the game as your actions DO have repercussions depending on how you accomplish objectives.

Aside from the option to tackle missions as you see fit (and the trusty Ghost Recon drone is back to help you scout and tag objectives ahead of time), you'll also be able to manipulate the world. For example, you'll be able to side with local rebels to help out in battles against more powerful factions within the Santa Blanca cartel. Or you can try and instigate in-fighting within the cartel itself, by manipulating information. Or you can create distractions in one place to help you sneak in and complete primary objectives with greater ease.

Careful, though. As with most open-world games, your actions will have an impact on the region. What this means is you'll be forced to make choices, which could come back to bite you later on.

As others stated, calling it propaganda is really ignoring the intent of the game itself, which is to be a player focused shooter where you take down a drug cartel in a Narco State. In the same way that James Bond is tasked with doing similar things.

 

[Messofanego]

This is hilarious to me, cause there seems to be a contradiction from blowing up shit and claiming they are ghosts who leave no trace. On some missions, you sneak and take out targets and sometimes you just wreck shit up?
No, it's up to you to decide how you tackle objectives. So far all the trailers have showcased that.


I suggest looking up info on the game as your actions DO have repercussions depending on how you accomplish objectives.

That sounds better, actually. Thanks.

 

[Weston]

Most people I know have this sort of view of the military. We're the good guys and the people we fight are the bad guys. That's that. To say anything contrary would be considered offensive. So I don't find surprising that there are so many games that align with this viewpoint.

I don't find it troubling. I just think it makes for boring story lines and one dimensional characters.

That's my impression from this trailer. Bland characters with no arc. Hopefully there's more to the story but I'm not expecting much.

 

[Syril]

I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of playing military action games set in the real world. I'd rather have it be in some kind of fantastical setting instead. The closest I've been willing to go has been Army of Two because it's so ridiculous that it feels like a satire.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Propaganda is in communication aimed at promoting certain viewpoints or perceptions.

Transformers, to use your own example, is very much pro-military. Michael Bay loves it and the US military helps him out with real soldiers and equipment because of it. They don't do that out of the goodness of their hearts. As I said before, 24 features similar themes and that's been talked about before and the creators absolutely agree they're pushing a certain ideal.

I always think of this one: Pentagon Quit The Avengers Because of Its ‘Unreality’

 

[Altairre]

I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of playing military action games set in the real world. I'd rather have it be in some kind of fantastical setting instead. The closest I've been willing to go has been Army of Two because it's so ridiculous that it feels like a satire.

Wait you're telling me real soldiers don't use golden guns to draw aggro?

 

[Syril]

Wait you're telling me real soldiers don't use golden guns to draw aggro?

I was talking more about the general over the top and absurd tone of everything, like how the two player characters are tremendous jackasses and how there's literally a brohug button.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

It's a Tom Clancy game.

Jingoism is a given.

.

Should have been first post.

 

[blastprocessor]

This looks to have potential.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

It's a Tom Clancy military game, so... duh? Mind you, that has no bearing on the game's quality really, but it is absolutely a right wing power fantasy. They will soften it to play to the middle, like most big budget games do - Call of Duty does this as well. Whether or not the premise bothers people enough to not play it is entirely up to them, but the general political leanings ain't exactly a mystery here.

That being said it's not strictly propaganda, since it's not state-run or anything like that. But it's absolutely based on a right-wing worldview.

As others stated, calling it propaganda is really ignoring the intent of the game itself, which is to be a player focused shooter where you take down a drug cartel in a Narco State. In the same way that James Bond is tasked with doing similar things.

James Bond is and always has been very politicized, so I'm not really sure what your point here is.

 

[Messofanego]

As others stated, calling it propaganda is really ignoring the intent of the game itself, which is to be a player focused shooter where you take down a drug cartel in a Narco State. In the same way that James Bond is tasked with doing similar things.

Propaganda can be divorced from the plot, gameplay, or narrative objective of the game. Let's not start assuming these games are completely apolitical now since such a thing is nigh impossible.

Call Of Juarez The Cartel had a similar objective about taking down drug cartels, but it was considered propaganda and racist. You can have "accidental indoctrination through lazy design" and "willfully misinform your audience" when designers don't take into account of what their mechanics mean.

I'm not going to hold out hope that Ghost Recon Wildlands will depict the complexities of the conflict like Sicario or Cartel Land have been able to on film, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Who's stopping you?


This is hilarious to me, cause there seems to be a contradiction from blowing up shit and claiming they are ghosts who leave no trace. On some missions, you sneak and take out targets and sometimes you just wreck shit up? Are there no repercussions to going guns blazing in foreign countries as the arm of USA, like a reputation system that would roll from mission to mission ala Hitman Blood Money or Dishonored?

I think the point is that any mission has the option to either sneak and take out targets OR wreck shit up. You could probably play the whole game sneaking around and killing people.

Your idea for a reputation system is a pretty good one though.

 

[galdevo]

I'm not going to hold out hope that Ghost Recon Wildlands will depict the complexities of the conflict like Sicario or Cartel Land have been able to on film, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

What an absolutely bizarre thing to pine for. You might as well hope the back of the next bottle of shampoo you buy has the emotional depth of Jane Eyre.

 

[Gnome Scat]

It's Tom Clancy, if there's a story then it's bound to be right wing propaganda.

 

[E-flux]

Call Of Juarez The Cartel had a similar objective about taking down drug cartels, but it was considered propaganda and racist. You can have "accidental indoctrination through lazy design" and "willfully misinform your audience" when designers don't take into account of what their mechanics mean.

I'm not going to hold out hope that Ghost Recon Wildlands will depict the complexities of the conflict like Sicario or Cartel Land have been able to on film, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I don't think anybody is getting indoctrinated through games like these, even something like The division where your secret division dudes have a licence to kill, even if the settings are based on a real life games itself are always so over the top that it's hard to take anything seriously that they try to jam through our throats. Where i live conscription is still a thing, every male goes to army after turning 18 unless they have a medical reason not to. To this day i haven't met a dude who was all excited that he gets to go into an army to waste a year of his life even if they were "gun nuts" some of them did get a career out of it though, but when talking to them games/movies were never the reason why they stayed there.

Edit:What i'm trying to get at that even if the games dealt with propaganda-ish themes they are extremely hard to take seriously in any shape or form since by nature they are so far removed from reality, so personally i don't really care what i'm playing as long as the story is engaging and the gameplay is fun.

 

[Abdul Hafeez]

Culturally? Give me a break. Says a lot about the poster. The legion of comic movie fans that only demand bigger CG fight scenes and a bigger number after the title don't reflect where movies are either.

How often do you hear people say "Get your politics out of my books/TV shows/movies?"

Now compare that to how often you see people saying it for games. It is a cultural problem. It's no surprise that Apple treats games differently from literally every other medium. And before you say "that's just one company's archaic policies," consider why those policies are in place.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

If it was going to seemingly handle the subject matter hamfistedly, then it should've been about locals rebelling against the cartels with equipment from whatever Gov't agency exists in this universe

How often do you hear people say "Get your politics out of my books/TV shows/movies?"

Now compare that to how often you see people saying it for games. It is a cultural problem. It's no surprise that Apple treats games differently from literally every other medium. And before you say "that's just one company's archaic policies," consider why those policies are in place.

Yup.

 

[Malice215]

The best that I can hope for is a 3rd person shooter that doesn't suck ass. If there's more meat to Wildlands where it goes into depth behind your motivations of going after this cartel, offers repercussions for going in guns blazing versus using stealth, or gives a real world conclusion of what happens after you take out this cartel, I'll gladly take it.

As for right wing propaganda, I'm not seeing it compared to what's going on in the real world today. Highly doubt that there's anything more to this than just being a video game where you and your bros traverse beautiful locales shooting up shit if you choose to do so.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

I looked up the "FIFTH FREEDOM" and laughed for a solid 10 minutes watching the videos i got. If Wildlands is anything like that then i'm sold on the game.

 

[UrbanRats]

Uh what? We are talking about the tone of the story / world. And you are talking about MGSV? This game seems very different from MGSV in this regard, which is btw probably a good example for a "fun" military game which still has a sensible message about warfare.

"Shooting guns is super fun, and look at the gear, how cool it is!"
"But war is bad mmmkay?"

That shit reminds me of Wind Rises, or Miyazaki's own struggle between his love for war planes, and his pacifist beliefs.

Many (most?) games and movies about warfare, are too concerned with being exciting and entertaining, to actually be credible condemnations of war.

 

[akira28]

It's a Tom Clancy game.

Jingoism is a given.

The Tom Clancy games I grew up playing managed to avoid it, unless you count the mini-novels sometimes included within... they were all simulations or strategy, no need to beat your chest or scream America when you're playing a hardcore Tom Clancy game.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

I thought the same thing while viewing this trailer. Not sure if I'd classify as propaganda perse but it's definitely propelling the narrative that soldiers are above the law and can freely and with freedom of conscience enter a different country to take out what foreigners believe as an unquestionable evil.

 

[galdevo]

The Tom Clancy games I grew up playing managed to avoid it, unless you count the mini-novels sometimes included within... they were all simulations or strategy, no need to beat your chest or scream America when you're playing a hardcore Tom Clancy game.

There is no such thing as a "hardcore" Tom Clancy game anymore. People don't want the planning stage anymore or simulation. They want plot like the OP and this is the Tom Clancy brand. Unless you are living under a rock you've realized Clancy fetishizes the military and USA.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Its a Tom Clancy game dude. A certain amount of military fetishism is to be expected.

 

[Atomski]

Are French Canadians very right wing?

I doubt it's propaganda just trying to sell to a big market.

 

[Messofanego]

Its a Tom Clancy game dude. A certain amount of military fetishism is to be expected.

But I've always seen it as a brand name for marketing, not a political philosophy. The dude's dead, so I doubt he gets much say in what the story can be about.

If they want a simplistic good vs evil story, why pick the complex world of drug cartels where there are no good guys and not you know, ISIS/Daesh? That's who their next target should be. You could have stealth missions where you have to avoid civilian casualties or you lose the mission. There could be missions where you try to prevent radicalisation in the first place with a different non-military character who talks to young men in those areas who are about to be brainwashed and there could be dialogue choices. It could be a vignette structure with multiple characters working on the conflict from different angles than just purely violent shootbang.

It's funny, when I was watching Eye In The Sky, the whole beetle drone section to scope out the baddies' home was straight out of a Ghost Recon or Rainbow Six game.

 

[lighthaze]

Propaganda might be a bit much, but I had definitely similar feelings to OP while watching the trailer. Yes, this jingoism has been a staple of Tom Clancy all along, but there's a stupid and tasteful way to do it, and the trailer definitely went for the former.

 

[dapperbandit]

Personally I think it would be awful if every game made had to be vetted to ensure it was left wing enough. I know that's not what OP is proposing but it strikes me he finds it problematic that a game which perpetuates right wing themes/ideology exists.

 

[RipperGrim]

People need to stop pretending that these games have anything to do with Tom Clancy besides the name on the box.

Also even if it did why does that somehow make the game exempt from criticism?

 

[Javier23]

If Ubi Soft is trying to push a right-wing agenda with this game, what are they doing then with Assassin's Creed and Watch_Dogs? Wouldn't that be a bit counterproductive?

 

[Deleted member 125677]

I feel like it's more pandering to the "doody in your heart, bleed for your country, get them bad guys and be a hero, USA USA USA"-feels, than any systemic and intentional right wing propaganda. These themes might overlap with elements you'd expect from right wing propaganda though. They're appealing to the same set of emotions. But I have a hard time believing Ubisoft is actively trying to recruit people to Trump or anything.